Shifting power levels

[Powder]

Probably because he lies, embellishes, & misremembers things.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Powder

Probably because he lies, embellishes, & misremembers things.

About what exactly? He stated he forgot to take his ex-girlfriend's name off the scripts.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by pferreira

Why would you not trust what Wise says about his own scripts?

Because he's a liar, he claims multiple things that were already present in the comics or proven to have been decided by Playmates were his ideas when they clearly weren't. Even things in which he isn't contradicted, his explainations for how he decided on it still sounds farfetched and absurd. Not to mention the fact that the bastard is one of the most uncreative hacks I have ever seen work in television, the man is unable to write anything other than cliché stories which he then recycles for other scripts.

Given all these facts, I seriously doubt he's responisble for even half of what he claims!

Originally Posted by pferreira

About what exactly? He stated he forgot to take his ex-girlfriend's name off the scripts.

Like I explained, he's a damn glory hog.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Because he's a liar, he claims multiple things that were already present in the comics or proven to have been decided by Playmates were his ideas when they clearly weren't. Even things in which he isn't contradicted, his explainations for how he decided on it still sounds farfetched and absurd. Not to mention the fact that the bastard is one of the most uncreative hacks I have ever seen work in television, the man is unable to write anything other than cliché stories which he then recycles for other scripts.

Given all these facts, I seriously doubt he's responisble for even half of what he claims!



Like I explained, he's a damn glory hog.

I take it some resentment? Not sure what he's lied about exactly. Yeah he's overexaggerated stuff before, for instance he tends to get carried away with saying he created the Turtles when obviously he didn't. What he did do is develop the Turtles personalities where in the comics the Turtles didn't really have personalities. And you're right Playmates along with the creators did come up with the characters that featured in the first season but only really on a visual level. Wise was responsible for taking the toys he had to sell in the cartoon and giving the characters depth beyond how they looked.

I know you don't like to hear all this because you hate the Fred Wolf cartoon but it's the truth. And no he isn't a hack, his writing was always great since Buck Rogers. The Ninja Turtles episodes he wrote don't come across like they're from a hack writer at all. Wise knew (most of the time) what he was doing and I'm extremely thankful for the childhood memories of the Ninja Turtles he provided in the writing.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by pferreira

I take it some resentment? Not sure what he's lied about exactly. Yeah he's overexaggerated stuff before, for instance he tends to get carried away with saying he created the Turtles when obviously he didn't. What he did do is develop the Turtles personalities where in the comics the Turtles didn't really have personalities. And you're right Playmates along with the creators did come up with the characters that featured in the first season but only really on a visual level. Wise was responsible for taking the toys he had to sell in the cartoon and giving the characters depth beyond how they looked.

I know you don't like to hear all this because you hate the Fred Wolf cartoon but it's the truth. And no he isn't a hack, his writing was always great since Buck Rogers. The Ninja Turtles episodes he wrote don't come across like they're from a hack writer at all. Wise knew (most of the time) what he was doing and I'm extremely thankful for the childhood memories of the Ninja Turtles he provided in the writing.

The turtles did have personalites in the comics, they just weren't in your face about all the time. The elements of their personalities were already in place, all Wise did was flatten and stretch them out, but credit still needs to go to Laird and Eastman. The thing about the toy characters, let's say Bebop and Rocksteady, is that they probably came with documents explaining how to write their personalities so Wise's involvemnt there might also be less than he claims, especially if the stories about adlibbing are true.

And David Wise is a hack, don't pretend otherwise. His scripts are cluttered and cliché, most of them just plagiarised from silver age comic books. Not to mention the fact that he is infamous for recycling these scripts over and over again.

The show in general is pretty poorly written and Wise certainly didn't help, episodes often feature characters sitting around doing nothing that progresses the plot and it's just boring. To be perfectly honest I don't think anyone who worked on the cared the least bit about what they were doing, David Wise included.

Anyway, the bottomline of this rant is that David Wise was lacked any real creative spark and certainly didn't take his job seriously enough to care.

Don't confuse your fuzzy nostalgic feelings for clever or charming writing. It's fine if you like it for nostalgic reasons but it's not a good show, it's objectively terrible! It's boring to follow, unfunny in it's comedy and ugly to look at.

[Powder]

I love the FW show but most of what neatoman said is true (beyond saying it's terrible, which is a subjective opinion).

[CyberCubed]

All cartoon writers rehash similar or old scripts from other shows. Ciro Nieli blatantly re-uses some old Teen Titans and Super Robot Monkey stories ideas in the Nick show, (the Wyrm episode especially is a perfect example of this).

So goes Greg Weisman for that matter. This is nothing strange for David Wise.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Don't confuse your fuzzy nostalgic feelings for clever or charming writing. It's fine if you like it for nostalgic reasons but it's not a good show, it's objectively terrible! It's boring to follow, unfunny in it's comedy and ugly to look at.

And this all false. The show is very funny, most episodes are pretty entertaining, and the animation from an old 80's and early 90's show still looks pretty good this today if we're talking about the best animated episodes.

The show is nearly 30 years old, what do you expect the animation to look like?

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Powder

I love the FW show but most of what neatoman said is true (beyond saying it's terrible, which is a subjective opinion).

I still like parts of the 1987 cartoon, but I agree that most of what neatoman said is true. I haven't watched most of the series in years, but the show is boringly repetitive at times and David Wise did recycle a lot of plots. I thought he wrote some good episodes, though.

[Yabuturtle]

It would probably be best if we save this for another topic. Some think the 87 toon is garbage, others think it's great. I think it's a good cartoon. It has faults like any other toon but it was great for the time. Some of it's dated but still has funny jokes, especially 4th wall ones and the banter from Shredder and Krang alone could make a great spin off. xD

But in this topic, I just wonder how villains can be tough and then turn out to be wimps. Sometimes when they turn into wimps, they become threatening again. Bebop and Rocksteady for example shift back and forth. Becoming threats and then later push overs.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Wesley

I still like parts of the 1987 cartoon, but I agree that most of what neatoman said is true. I haven't watched most of the series in years, but the show is boringly repetitive at times and David Wise did recycle a lot of plots. I thought he wrote some good episodes, though.

Some of it's good in spite of or even because of it's flaws, but to deny their existence is silly. Sure, he's done a fair bit of good material, & absolutely deserves a certain amount of credit, but not anywhere near what he seems to feel he's owed.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

And this all false. The show is very funny, most episodes are pretty entertaining, and the animation from an old 80's and early 90's show still looks pretty good this today if we're talking about the best animated episodes.

The show is nearly 30 years old, what do you expect the animation to look like?

I expect any cartoon from any era to at the very least not be full of animation errors even a toddler would recognise at initial viewings, like these for example:

Spoiler:

Errors such as these are plastered all over the show and it's something I don't believe should be considered acceptable within any standards, regardless of how old or low budgeted any given show is. Sure, some episodes like the Tempestra episde still look good but those aren't the majority or even a good chunk of the episodes. I don't expect modern or big budget quality animation, I just think consistency and quality control shouldn't be ignored like they obviously were.

As for the writing and comedy, most of the episode center around shrinking rays, freeze rays, body switching and other plots that were already considered cliché cartoon plots by 1987. It wouldn't have been so bad except for two factors that really drags it down:

1. The same plot devices (especially the shrinking ray) are used for several episode, making them cliché within the show itself.
2. The scripts are very rarely ever decently balanced, making most episodes either cluttered with side-plots or despererate to fill out time.

A perfect example of the show trying to fill time is "Turtles, Turtles, Everywhere", an episode with an already boring plot that has the Turtles spending the first half or so of the episode just cleaning their home, which has no impact on the rest of the episode. Another is "Snakes Alive!" in which all the Turtles except Leo are trapped and several scenes of the episode are dedicated to Don trying to unscrew the cage which didn't matter since Leo just came in to save them anyway.

The comedy might be the easiest to defend since it's a very subjective issue but I never liked the comedy, i always found it to be rather toothless and poorly timed. Not to mention that stupid running gag about pizza toppings, did anyone ever find that funny?

[ToTheNines]

Yeah, Wise is a fool. Raphael had his personality down in #1, with all the other turtles getting individual characterization in #2, if not very shortly after. Everyone was "themselves" by mid 1985 at the latest.

He's butthurt too. He talked trash on the Nick cartoon when interviewed on Andrew's podcast. He was all "you don't hear kids running around yelling 'booyuh casha' do ya?". Sounded like a ****ing clown.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So goes Greg Weisman for that matter. This is nothing strange for David Wise.

Did you seriously just compare Weisman to David Wise? I know you're the village idiot and all, but come on bro.

[Yabuturtle]

I'm guessing there's not too many that listened to me.

Am I seriously the only one noticing this? Let's please stay on topic.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Yeah, Wise is a fool. Raphael had his personality down in #1, with all the other turtles getting individual characterization in #2, if not very shortly after. Everyone was "themselves" by mid 1985 at the latest.

He's butthurt too. He talked trash on the Nick cartoon when interviewed on Andrew's podcast. He was all "you don't hear kids running around yelling 'booyuh casha' do ya?". Sounded like a ****ing clown.

Yeah, his whole shtick is sour grapes now. I should've gotten this that & the next thing, nobody's turtles are better than mine, blah blah blah. He can say whatever he wants about the Nick series but that creative teams' favorite iteration is Mirage, & despite all the Playmates influence & FW pandering they're sorta forced into doing, it shows.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

The turtles did have personalites in the comics, they just weren't in your face about all the time. The elements of their personalities were already in place, all Wise did was flatten and stretch them out, but credit still needs to go to Laird and Eastman. The thing about the toy characters, let's say Bebop and Rocksteady, is that they probably came with documents explaining how to write their personalities so Wise's involvemnt there might also be less than he claims, especially if the stories about adlibbing are true.

No they didn't have personalities. Leonardo was a leader, Raphael was just angry, Donatello was gadget man and Michaelangelo was the young Turtle. Wise added to their personalities, fleshing them out and developed their identities, the comics adopted these new traits. Check that nostalgia you have, it's clouding your judgement.

Originally Posted by neatoman

And David Wise is a hack, don't pretend otherwise. His scripts are cluttered and cliché, most of them just plagiarised from silver age comic books. Not to mention the fact that he is infamous for recycling these scripts over and over again.

The show in general is pretty poorly written and Wise certainly didn't help, episodes often feature characters sitting around doing nothing that progresses the plot and it's just boring. To be perfectly honest I don't think anyone who worked on the cared the least bit about what they were doing, David Wise included.

Wise again is not a hack and if you did a bit of research you'd discover a lot of the scripts by most writers generally were paying homage to 1950s sci-fi movies. Silver age comic books? Yeah right. I'm assuming Wise also did care about the show, he was heavily involved throughout and is still bitter about how the network treated him. Does that sound like someone who doesn't care?

Originally Posted by neatoman

Don't confuse your fuzzy nostalgic feelings for clever or charming writing. It's fine if you like it for nostalgic reasons but it's not a good show, it's objectively terrible! It's boring to follow, unfunny in it's comedy and ugly to look at.

That's your opinion. I think it's a fine show and unlike you I'm happy to talk about in this part of the forum.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

He was all "you don't hear kids running around yelling 'booyuh casha' do ya?". Sounded like a ****ing clown.

Well you don't do you?

[Powder]

You're a joke.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Powder

Yeah, his whole shtick is sour grapes now. I should've gotten this that & the next thing, nobody's turtles are better than mine, blah blah blah. He can say whatever he wants about the Nick series but that creative teams' favorite iteration is Mirage, & despite all the Playmates influence & FW pandering they're sorta forced into doing, it shows.

Wise is probably more annoyed the network treated him like crap and he had a huge hand to bringing it to the TV. I think he's entitled to be annoyed. And everyone disses other people's work, Wise wasn't the first and he won't be the last.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I expect any cartoon from any era to at the very least not be full of animation errors even a toddler would recognise at initial viewings, like these for example:

The first season was animated by TOEI, why don't you ask them since they're an anime company who produces shows like Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon or One Piece?

Errors such as these are plastered all over the show and it's something I don't believe should be considered acceptable within any standards, regardless of how old or low budgeted any given show is. Sure, some episodes like the Tempestra episde still look good but those aren't the majority or even a good chunk of the episodes. I don't expect modern or big budget quality animation, I just think consistency and quality control shouldn't be ignored like they obviously were.

The bandana errors still don't affect the animation quality of an episode. You're looking for coloring errors, not the actual animation. The show is nearly 30 years old and holds up better than any other animation show from that time period.

As for the writing and comedy, most of the episode center around shrinking rays, freeze rays, body switching and other plots that were already considered cliché cartoon plots by 1987. It wouldn't have been so bad except for two factors that really drags it down:

And there's nothing wrong with these plots. They were all done a different way almost each time, and the actual plot of the episode to solve the problem was done differently each time. The episode where Shredder/Krang are trying to freeze the earth by draining the sun isn't anywhere similar to episodes where they shrink the Turtles or bring movie characters to life.

The plots are silly, sure, but that's the nature of the show. What's wrong with using ideas such as those in a show that's not intended to be a serious series?

Another is "Snakes Alive!" in which all the Turtles except Leo are trapped and several scenes of the episode are dedicated to Don trying to unscrew the cage which didn't matter since Leo just came in to save them anyway.

That was the joke. And that scene was less than 2 minutes, not "half the episode" or whatever you're trying to claim.

The comedy might be the easiest to defend since it's a very subjective issue but I never liked the comedy, i always found it to be rather toothless and poorly timed. Not to mention that stupid running gag about pizza toppings, did anyone ever find that funny?

Pizza topping jokes are what you're complaining about? A harmless gag that went on no more than a minute or less for an episode?