Your religious views and positions on matters such as God and the meaning of life?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

We won't agree. I'm a solid materialist, not a dualist, which Seems to be what you ascribe to.

There's a new article on the brain as a quantum field. I'll find the link and post it.

I'll respond to your other points when it's not so late.

No problem

Looking forward to the article, and I'm enjoying this discussion.

Also, while we are having this discussion, keep in mind I have nothing against you personally, and that the difference in beliefs gives me no reason from not loving others. I dearly apologize if I came off as pushy in my posts that were in response to you and you felt any hurt. I do not intend to hurt you, and I wish you happiness and peace Ideas may rise and fall, but there should be no hostility and we should treat everyone with a loving heart.

"Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." Corinthians 13:4-7

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Aand you didn't answer the question(and from what I saw neither did they) how dors action PRECEDE the IDEA of the action? It can't. You can't do something before you ever think of doing it.
.

An analogy, I suppose might be to imagine you're body as a company. Maybe you've had a boss or two in life, whose so insecure, that unless they say so, nothing gets done. They are also incapable of doing anything directly, because any sort of work is beneath them. They're the King of the castle.

If the workers are to survive, they must work, or the company will fail. So the workers set about working things out to keep the company alive. The boss meanwhile, only sees that the company is successful, and since he's in charge, and nobody else, he takes credit for everything going on, including innovative new developments in various departments.

Something like that. Perhaps consciousness is a useless boss?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Says the Wiccan? Lol, don't be that girl...
It's a mixed panel, but far more reputable than waving sage in the air,
like you just don't care.

I'll give you the neuro market is saturated, with fakes making up a good number, but this is just the tip of the ice burg. It's generally accepted that free will is bollocks.

Evidence, at least to me, of why religion doesn't determine morality. I've been on the board for almost 5 years , and in all that time, you've NEVER been rude. On the other hand I'm an ass.
If we both went to church/worshiped/sacrificed virgins to volcanos, We'd still be pretty much the same people.

Good is a word derrived from the word god only; being a kind person requires no supervision or lecture.

"That girl", huh? Exactly what do you mean by that, other than to mock a spiritual practice you know little about? My faith deals almost exclusively with the natural world and how we and it affect each other. That actually makes me uniquely qualified to study and understand aspects of reality and the universe around us that science has barely even begun to touch, let alone explain. Read the X-Men quote in my sig. It is a perfect statement of what my faith represents. Please don't be "that guy" who resorts to making jokes about something they neither understand nor have studied in any depth. It is most unbecoming.

As to what I believe in, I can assert with confidence that it is based on many experiences which have convinced me beyond any doubt that there is far more to our world than a mere physical universe can ever begin to contain. Reality is more complex than science as we know it can cimprehend at this point. The immaterial and intangible exist all around us, but can be felt at times. I've done it.

Accepted by whom exactly? Not most of the psychologists I've ever read anything by. Funny thing, I've actually read quite a few recent articles on how our brains influence our behavior, from adolescent development up to and including self-destructive or violent behavior. None of them ever so much as suggested that our brain chemistry or neurological impulses are SOLELY responsible or even dominate the majority of our behavior. They are a factor, yes, but hardly the only one. THAT is widely accepted.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Ok, I have watched the entire video, and I have my points to say.

Why is it nonsense? Just because it cannot be physically measured? That's exactly what I have been trying to tell you, that there are certain things that cannot be measured using the scientific method, such as our consciousness.

Now, you may want to claim that we can indeed measure these things by measuring the electrical signals that pule throughout our brain, but the electrical signals themselves are not the IMMATERIAL thoughts, ideas, values and beliefs that I experience, they are electrical signals which lack meaning outside of what our immaterial thoughts and imagination give them.

The proper way to investigate MENTAL thoughts, ideas, values and beliefs would be through MENTAL introspection, an entirely different field of study from science, which concerns itself with perceived objective reality through the repeated tests and observation of PHYSICAL stimuli in order to figure out how the PHYSICAL world works.

1. That is exactly the point. The images in our mind are completely intangible, immaterial and outside the laws of physics which solely concern themselves with the material. Anyone who says that the electrical signals are responsible for these immaterial images has no choice but to commit the fallacy of implying that correlation equals causation, and is also trying to explain the immaterial using science, which is solely concerned with the material.

"And how does your question begin to solve for the question of free will? Does my playstation have free will? My TV?"

It solves the question by talking about my immaterial self which I and you can experience. This immaterial soul is not bound by the laws of physics due to its non physical nature, and is thus exempt from determinism. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe in physical determinism, and that any ideas of physical reality being different rest solely in our non-physical mind.

I find the parallel between mind/body and electrical currents and the picture you see on television to be fallacious. Firstly, because the television image is not IMMATERIAL, looking closely at the image on the screen will allow you to see the individual PHYSICAL pixels which are caused by the PHYSICAL currents running across the PHYSICAL currents. So of course, your television and PlayStation don't have free will, as everything about them is physical from (aside from the meaning we assign to them using our non-physical mind), thus they are bound by the laws of cause and effect.

I found it dishonest for one of the speakers to rule out the existence of anything thats not physical due to the lack of evidence, because firstly, they were searching for the immaterial in the wrong places by examining the physical brain, which of course won't show you anything immaterial as it is a physical organ. You look for the immaterial by using your immaterial mind. No matter how much they try, scientists cannot see the immaterial image of the bluebird flying in my head by looking at the electrical currents that run through my physical brain. Physical currents are not the imagined bluebird itself. Also, if one of the speakers bothered to investigate the problem of premium free will which they cited as one of the 3 options on the gas station, they would've been forced to conclude that science cannot answer the immaterial. I found it a cop out to just label the option as "Archaic" and not even attempt to honestly investigate it just because it dwells into a completely different realm that science cannot answer.

"There's arguments to be made that you, are not even "in" your brain, let alone "images".

I agree, I do not believe I am my brain, and/or my body or even inside of them. I believe I am an immaterial soul, independent of my physical body which feels physical sensations via a physical body, It is my mind which interprets the physical body as my own and the world around me, giving meaning to everything. I do not believe the immaterial images I imagine such as bluebirds and gardens, are even in my brain technically, because of their non-physical nature. Being non-physical would make the mind beyond time and space. I guess this makes me a dualist.

You made some very good points. Thank you. The mind is more than just neuro-electric pathways firing randomly in the brain. It is also immaterial and intangible like what some refer to as the Astral body. Monks and shamans have known this for thousands of years. We are not just of body but of mind(spirit/soul) as well. This is difficult for many people to understand because it is something that cannot be properly measured or quantified. But it exists. Simply because science caannot yet put a number on it is hardly reason to dismiss it as fallacy. You seem to grasp that quite a bit better than most. I tip my hat to you.

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

An analogy, I suppose might be to imagine you're body as a company. Maybe you've had a boss or two in life, whose so insecure, that unless they say so, nothing gets done. They are also incapable of doing anything directly, because any sort of work is beneath them. They're the King of the castle.

If the workers are to survive, they must work, or the company will fail. So the workers set about working things out to keep the company alive. The boss meanwhile, only sees that the company is successful, and since he's in charge, and nobody else, he takes credit for everything going on, including innovative new developments in various departments.

Something like that. Perhaps consciousness is a useless boss?

That is actually not a very accurate analogy, as the workers in a company are largely independant of their boss and work will get done with or without his input- often even in SPITE of it! He is only as useful as his input helps or hinders his workers. And consciousness exists both as part of and independantly of the physical brain. That said, the entire body depends in the brain, but likewise IT depends on the rest to function. One cannot exist without the other. It is more of a symbiosis than a boss/worker kind of relationship. Even in lower life forms there is still a "command center" but there too, it can only function if the rest of the body does. This is true even of single cells. Interestingly, this kind of relationship also helps to explain how and why certain phenomena exist that are as yet unexplained by current science. Everything that exists is connected at a very basic level. This is where the idea of the "web of life" comes from. All matter and energy are intertwined. This is both a fundamental law of physics, and of metaphysics as well. The two exist as part of each other and seperately at the same time.

[Refractive Reflections]

And so it begins...

[Commenter 42]

Nah, we're not fighting. I like Duckie too much for that.

I'd say my analogy is, well, exactly what I meant. We're an organization of cells, working together, for a common goal. I don't consciously tell my blood to carry oxegen, my heart to beat, my lungs to breath. I never think about replacing skin cells or storing fat. For the most part, the body is running on autopilot.

I don't think I can work out the rest of your argument. From all our discussions, you seem to be a dualist as well. It's not thT I don't respect you, but I can't respect anything that requires faith, of any kind. Faith, is illogical, irrational, and to be blunt, irresponsible.

You're still not grasping the enormity of the free will experiment. You're both refuting it with "because I said so" arguments, or "science doesn't know what I know because of my personal experience of...."

If I argued an Alien stopped by my kitchen last night and told me the secrets of the universe, you'd probably think I was nuts. If I then countered with the argument that you can't know what I know, so just take it on faith, you'd hardly be moved.

This is the crux of it. If you've had personal experience, great, but it must be repeatable, on command, testable, to be verifiable.

A thing is not a thing cause I said so.

[Katie]

If every action and reaction was determined automatically by the brain with no thought by a person, human's brains would not have evolved beyond the base reptile brain.

The reason we have big old cerebellum, and especially a large frontal lobe, is that we have evolved the ability for abstract thought, including decision making and impulse control.

Now granted, the frontal lobe that regulates impulse control is not fully formed until a person is 24 or so, but it still exists.

People are responsible for their decisions.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Ok, I have watched the entire video, and I have my points to say.



Why is it nonsense? Just because it cannot be physically measured? That's exactly what I have been trying to tell you, that there are certain things that cannot be measured using the scientific method, such as our consciousness.

Now, you may want to claim that we can indeed measure these things by measuring the electrical signals that pule throughout our brain, but the electrical signals themselves are not the IMMATERIAL thoughts, ideas, values and beliefs that I experience, they are electrical signals which lack meaning outside of what our immaterial thoughts and imagination give them.

The proper way to investigate MENTAL thoughts, ideas, values and beliefs would be through MENTAL introspection, an entirely different field of study from science, which concerns itself with perceived objective reality through the repeated tests and observation of PHYSICAL stimuli in order to figure out how the PHYSICAL world works.



1. That is exactly the point. The images in our mind are completely intangible, immaterial and outside the laws of physics which solely concern themselves with the material. Anyone who says that the electrical signals are responsible for these immaterial images has no choice but to commit the fallacy of implying that correlation equals causation, and is also trying to explain the immaterial using science, which is solely concerned with the material.

"And how does your question begin to solve for the question of free will? Does my playstation have free will? My TV?"

It solves the question by talking about my immaterial self which I and you can experience. This immaterial soul is not bound by the laws of physics due to its non physical nature, and is thus exempt from determinism. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe in physical determinism, and that any ideas of physical reality being different rest solely in our non-physical mind.

I find the parallel between mind/body and electrical currents and the picture you see on television to be fallacious. Firstly, because the television image is not IMMATERIAL, looking closely at the image on the screen will allow you to see the individual PHYSICAL pixels which are caused by the PHYSICAL currents running across the PHYSICAL currents. So of course, your television and PlayStation don't have free will, as everything about them is physical from (aside from the meaning we assign to them using our non-physical mind), thus they are bound by the laws of cause and effect.

I found it dishonest for one of the speakers to rule out the existence of anything thats not physical due to the lack of evidence, because firstly, they were searching for the immaterial in the wrong places by examining the physical brain, which of course won't show you anything immaterial as it is a physical organ. You look for the immaterial by using your immaterial mind. No matter how much they try, scientists cannot see the immaterial image of the bluebird flying in my head by looking at the electrical currents that run through my physical brain. Physical currents are not the imagined bluebird itself. Also, if one of the speakers bothered to investigate the problem of premium free will which they cited as one of the 3 options on the gas station, they would've been forced to conclude that science cannot answer the immaterial. I found it a cop out to just label the option as "Archaic" and not even attempt to honestly investigate it just because it dwells into a completely different realm that science cannot answer.

"There's arguments to be made that you, are not even "in" your brain, let alone "images".

I agree, I do not believe I am my brain, and/or my body or even inside of them. I believe I am an immaterial soul, independent of my physical body which feels physical sensations via a physical body, It is my mind which interprets the physical body as my own and the world around me, giving meaning to everything. I do not believe the immaterial images I imagine such as bluebirds and gardens, are even in my brain technically, because of their non-physical nature. Being non-physical would make the mind beyond time and space. I guess this makes me a dualist.

Yeah, I wrote a whole huge response, and the iPad promptly died.

Basically, I need you to better explain what you mean by immaterial.
It sounds suspiciously like you're arguing spirituality is the only path to knowledge.

That's a non starter.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Katie

If every action and reaction was determined automatically by the brain with no thought by a person, human's brains would not have evolved beyond the base reptile brain.

The reason we have big old cerebellum, and especially a large frontal lobe, is that we have evolved the ability for abstract thought, including decision making and impulse control.

Now granted, the frontal lobe that regulates impulse control is not fully formed until a person is 24 or so, but it still exists.

People are responsible for their decisions.

Right, except these guys say otherwise. They're also not the only ones

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, I have a feeling this thread will be closed soon so here I am before it is.

I believe we all have free will to decide what we want to do in life and that our choices shape who we are and what happens to us. I don't believe that anything in life is predetermined or decided for us because I don't like the idea of us being mindless puppets under the control of someone else.

As for our functions in our body, they are all controlled by the brain which sends signals to all of our organs telling them to function. That has nothing to do with free will as free will is designed by our conscious decisions to do things and make decisions. Yes, the brain may send a signal, but we are the ones deciding whether to do whatever action we deem necessary.

For the record, I'm a former Catholic turned atheist and I'm pretty happy with it. As long as others respect me and my beliefs, I'll respect theirs.

[plastroncafe]

Never respect beliefs.
Always respect the people who have them, unless they have have proven themselves to be unworthy of respect.

[Katie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Right, except these guys say otherwise. They're also not the only ones

I have been unable to locate multiple scientific studied to back this. Any different sources from the video or from the guys in the video? I mean, lets see the JAMA and psychology guys weigh in....multiple unrelated neurologists.....anything. All I see is a bunch of philisophical debate. I need actual science.

Just cause these guys are have debated a theory does not make their theory right. Yes, the sympathetic nervous system exists, as dies the human ability for abstract thought.

Show me multiple unrelated, cross dicipline studies that prove this theory. I don't buy it. At all.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Katie

I have been unable to locate multiple scientific studied to back this. Any different sources from the video or from the guys in the video? I mean, lets see the JAMA and psychology guys weigh in....multiple unrelated neurologists.....anything. All I see is a bunch of philisophical debate. I need actual science.

Just cause these guys are have debated a theory does not make their theory right. Yes, the sympathetic nervous system exists, as dies the human ability for abstract thought.

Show me multiple unrelated, cross dicipline studies that prove this theory. I don't buy it. At all.

I'm not surprised, most people don't. I'll find the articles and videos I meant o post last night.

Why close the thread? Seems to still be a civilized discussion, more than ghostbusters or Suicide Squad.

[BubblyShell22]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Never respect beliefs.
Always respect the people who have them, unless they have have proven themselves to be unworthy of respect.

Sorry, but that makes no sense in the way you said it. I respect the beliefs of others as long as their beliefs are not hurting others in any way.

[Jephael]

That is all!!!

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Sorry, but that makes no sense in the way you said it. I respect the beliefs of others as long as their beliefs are not hurting others in any way.

I don't often agree with with pc, but, here, she's right.

I don't respect the supernatural, I do have a lot of respect for Duckie, PC, Cylon, FredWolfLeo, 2da9s*; most folks here, even if I completely disagree with their views.
I actually respect folks more when they can sufficiently and succinctly argue their opinion.

Then again, simply by arguing with you, I've strengthened your resolve to shore up your own views. All of us are have a confirmation bias, because my proposition is seemingly, to horrible to believe.

This is the grand joke of existence, the willingness to look for meaning where there i none, and to believe that there's a meaning to causality.

It's interesting to me that I'm the only nihilist in the room, outside of cubed, of course.

[BubblyShell22]

Whatever. To each their own.

[ToTheNines]

I'd say I'm a nihilist, too. I'd be more active in this thread if I busted out the laptop, but I normally stick to drunkenly swiping on my smart phone and there's no sense in half assing a debate as high brow as this.

Back to the movie/tv section with me.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I've already argued and rethought and reevaluated my own beliefs in the last few years and found it all exhausting. I've been curious enough to pop in and look around, but I'm sitting this one out. You guys go for it.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

But we don't. The 'Drome is a cesspool of assholes, these threads are just gasoline on the fire.

We should have learned by now with The Volanic Asteroid.

There's room for "A Cesspool of Assholes" up by the banner, right?

Originally Posted by Prowler

I wish a place like Valhalla was real, however. Would actually make me look forward to death.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Religious zealots are the worst thing in the world, even worse than political zealots.

I dunno, "nerd culture" zealots are giving them a run for their money these days.

[snake]

Nihilism? Too exhausting man.