Do you think this series will allow Karai X Leo to become canon?

[ssjup81]

How is it incest? They don’t have the same mother and father biologically. I wish someone would explain logically how it's incest. I kinda doubt Splinter was the main reason for the way the turtles mutated anyway. Think about it. Maybe the last one to handle the turtles before their mutation was whoever Yoshi bought the turtles from. The pet shop owner. Yoshi probably did touch them before he bought them, but the pet shop owner was probably the one to put them in the bowl for Yoshi to buy them.

I kind of agree with the fact that none the turtles have any Asian or Japanese features…especially the eye color thing. Outside of anime and manga, you don’t see people walking around with blue and green eyes here, unless they’re wearing contacts to enhance their eyes or if the person is mixed, and even that’s a rarity since blue and green are overpowered by the other genes that determines eye and hair colors like black and brown.

That aside, it’s like two people standing next to one another at say a firing range or something. One of them fires a gun. The gunshot residue is present on both parties when inspected, even though one of the two didn’t fire, touch, or handle the gun in question. Does that mean that both are the shooters? That’s pretty much how I see Yoshi and the Turtles’ situation (if he did indeed touch them prior to their mutation). Brushed up against them or whatever.

Ah, let me play devil's advocate for a bit here. Let's go with the whole "they're related" thing. Does this mean that if that rat that Splinter touched has some baby rats, that those rats will be Splinter's siblings?

[AlessandraDC]

I don't think it's incest - there is no shared DNA and they weren't even raised together. But the fact that some people in the fandom think it is, makes them too controversial to be canon.

[DestronMirage22]

They obviously aren't biologically related, but it would still be incest in the sense that they ARE family in a way; step-brother/sister/whatever. It'd be like banging your moms daughter she had with another guy who isn't your dad, or with a step-sister who isn't related to you by blood: just wrong.

(Also, for the record, typeing this all out and thinking about all this is really uncomfortable )

[snake]

It's just f*cking weird. Just because they aren't biologically related doesn't make it any less weird. That's like saying I'm gonna go hook up with my cousin that was adopted and it's okay because we aren't blood related.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by snake

It's just f*cking weird. Just because they aren't biologically related doesn't make it any less weird. That's like saying I'm gonna go hook up with my cousin that was adopted and it's okay because we aren't blood related.

Believe It or not, cousin marriage (blood related) is actually pretty common in the world. Infact, it has been estimated that 1 in every 10 marriages is in between first cousins. Even more surprising, it has been estimated that 80% of marriages throughout history have been between second cousins and closer. Weird right?

[ssjup81]

Hey, I’m not even into the whole Leo x Karai thing as an actual romantic pairing. Same with Donnie x April. I’m indifferent to both and don’t care one way or the other if either becomes canon, but I love the friendship between Leo and Karai and the friendship between Donnie and April. Leo’s crush on Karai is genuinely cute to me…

Raph: She threw a knife at your head.
Leo: She threw a knife by my head.
Raph: -_-


My problem is that I just find the claim that it’s “incest” a very faulty argument against the pairing for those who do ship it. They weren't raised as siblings. If they had been, then it would probably be weird.

A “weird” relationship implication to me is Neji and Hinata from the Naruto series. Neji seemed to have a crush on Hinata. Hinata was his first cousin and to make it even stranger, their fathers were twins. That makes them even more genetically close. So yeah, that is weird to me as far as the incest angle is concerned. Of course it didn’t happen and of course it was never openly admitted by him, but it was still a bit weird...and it is legal to marry a first cousin here...so maybe that's why they had that in there...who knows...

[KrN]

Jfc, I thought most of this "it's incest" crap was on tumblr. Time to get educated!

To start off, I'm going to say this off the bat: no one has to be biologically related to be considered family, I understand that better than anyone.

They are not biological siblings, nor are they foster/half/adopted siblings. I don’t see any paperwork, bloodline or anything at all to prove they are siblings. All that aside, they don’t view each other that way because they didn’t grow up with each other.

They don't consider each other siblings, this is backed up multiple times at various points during the show and I have seen the argument 'Well, Mikey calls her sister so!!1!' and by that logic, Apritello might as well be incest since the turtles and Splinter consistently say she's family.

For example: Mikey considers Karai his sister as he has made clear many times. 3x11 - Serpent Hunt. They corner Karai in the warehouse, Mikey attempts to reach out to her - “It’s me, Mikey, your brother.”

Two seconds later. Leo jumps down from above, exclaiming: “Karai, remember us. We’re your friends.” Note the way he put an extra emphasis on ‘friends’. They're both careful not to call Splinter 'Father' around each other, as well. 'Cause yes, it's a can of worms that will have to be addressed at some point between them, on-screen or off but is it incest? No.

Even if he's adopted [if you would like to count Splinter's receipt from the pet shop] a lot of important families in Japan will adopt a man their daughter is marrying simply so the inheritance stays with their family name. It’s called yōshi-engumi. Sometimes gay couples in Japan will even use adoption to share wealth and property, because same-sex marriage is illegal there–the older partner will formally adopt the younger one, paperwork and all.

All of the technical stuff aside, let me ask you a question: does Leo pining after Karai in 3x19 sound like incest to you? Or Ciro mentioning the crush himself at a panel? Does Leo acknowledging that mutants like Karai are attractive in this very season sound like incest to y o u? Would Ciro, Brandon and Nickelodeon be promoting this relationship if they were going to tie the turtles and Karai together as biological-siblings? No. I don’t believe they would.

EDIT: To address the actual point of this thread - I do think they'll end up canon. Seth Green PM'd a girl on instagram claiming there would be a kiss in the near future, which y'know, take with a grain of salt because it's instagram but she's a friend of mine so I have reason to believe she isn't lying.

If they don't end canon, I'll be fine with it [I say as an actual shipper of the two]. I'm more concerned about Karai's actual survival on this show tbh. Or she could end up with Shinigami~ Which I am 100% down with.

[AlessandraDC]

Originally Posted by KrN

Jfc, I thought most of this "it's incest" crap was on tumblr. Time to get educated!

To start off, I'm going to say this off the bat: no one has to be biologically related to be considered family, I understand that better than anyone.

They are not biological siblings, nor are they foster/half/adopted siblings. I don’t see any paperwork, bloodline or anything at all to prove they are siblings. All that aside, they don’t view each other that way because they didn’t grow up with each other.

They don't consider each other siblings, this is backed up multiple times at various points during the show and I have seen the argument 'Well, Mikey calls her sister so!!1!' and by that logic, Apritello might as well be incest since the turtles and Splinter consistently say she's family.

For example: Mikey considers Karai his sister as he has made clear many times. 3x11 - Serpent Hunt. They corner Karai in the warehouse, Mikey attempts to reach out to her - “It’s me, Mikey, your brother.”

Two seconds later. Leo jumps down from above, exclaiming: “Karai, remember us. We’re your friends.” Note the way he put an extra emphasis on ‘friends’. They're both careful not to call Splinter 'Father' around each other, as well. 'Cause yes, it's a can of worms that will have to be addressed at some point between them, on-screen or off but is it incest? No.

Even if he's adopted [if you would like to count Splinter's receipt from the pet shop] a lot of important families in Japan will adopt a man their daughter is marrying simply so the inheritance stays with their family name. It’s called yōshi-engumi. Sometimes gay couples in Japan will even use adoption to share wealth and property, because same-sex marriage is illegal there–the older partner will formally adopt the younger one, paperwork and all.

All of the technical stuff aside, let me ask you a question: does Leo pining after Karai in 3x19 sound like incest to you? Or Ciro mentioning the crush himself at a panel? Does Leo acknowledging that mutants like Karai are attractive in this very season sound like incest to y o u? Would Ciro, Brandon and Nickelodeon be promoting this relationship if they were going to tie the turtles and Karai together as biological-siblings? No. I don’t believe they would.

EDIT: To address the actual point of this thread - I do think they'll end up canon. Seth Green PM'd a girl on instagram claiming there would be a kiss in the near future, which y'know, take with a grain of salt because it's instagram but she's a friend of mine so I have reason to believe she isn't lying.

If they don't end canon, I'll be fine with it [I say as an actual shipper of the two]. I'm more concerned about Karai's actual survival on this show tbh. Or she could end up with Shinigami~ Which I am 100% down with.

I personally really like what this verse has done with both Leo and Karai. They were one of the reasons that I started watching the new show.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I kind of agree with the fact that none the turtles have any Asian or Japanese features…especially the eye color thing. Outside of anime and manga, you don’t see people walking around with blue and green eyes here, unless they’re wearing contacts to enhance their eyes or if the person is mixed, and even that’s a rarity since blue and green are overpowered by the other genes that determines eye and hair colors like black and brown.

I agree, they are probably more 'related' to the shopkeep

Originally Posted by ssjup81

Ah, let me play devil's advocate for a bit here. Let's go with the whole "they're related" thing. Does this mean that if that rat that Splinter touched has some baby rats, that those rats will be Splinter's siblings?

I think that is a good question, honestly. Does the mutation turn that person into a basic rat, turtle, etc, the mutagen using the other creature's DNA for a template of whatever alterations make up 'ratness' or 'turtleness' but the person's DNA is still their own? (That is, the person gets their own genes altered removing 'humanity,' but they are still that person, even down to retaining genetic issues from their family like for brittle nails, or inheriting from dad his roman nose. Only now it's brittle claws or a roman rat's nose, or whatever it would look like in a turtle.)

Or is the person getting a literal relatedness from his mutation, with mutagen splicing in whole chunks from that other creature's DNA and erasing parts of his own genetic heritage?


If Splinter is the first type, he is merely a Japanese human that had his genetics altered, keeping everything that 'makes' him Yoshi, but now simply in a rat form. If he is the second form, he had DNA spliced in and all, then he wouldl have little brothers and sisters running around when that proverbial rat had babies.

With the first quote, the Turtles probably already have traits buried in their 'turtleness' to make unusual eyes. They could easily have been bred to have unusual eye color (like how some people breed 'fun traits' found in animals like goldfish with double tails or pythons that are albinos) and Yoshi might have picked four turtles with different eyes so he could tell them apart. Green and yellow are normal Turtle colors, so is brown, but blue might be the 'fun' color.

[neatoman]

That might be a joke, and Leo/Karai might not technically be incest, but it's weird. Like, really weird.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by AlessandraDC

I personally really like what this verse has done with both Leo and Karai. They were one of the reasons that I started watching the new show.

In Shibuya, same-sex couples can marry.

That aside, as I was saying, they weren't raised as siblings, hence why Leo's crush is probably still allowed to be a thing in the show.

I still don't get why people are weirded out by it, and not the fact that she's basically human and he's a giant turtle.

I see if this was the Brady Bunch. Those kids, albeit step siblings, were raised as siblings from a young age. It would probably feel weird there because they were raised as brothers and sisters and only see each other in that way. Can't say that for Leo and Karai.

[Powder]

People will really go to great lengths to defend inter-species incest!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Powder

People will really go to great lengths to defend inter-species incest!

Apparently, love will find a way.

[AlessandraDC]

As far as the turtle/human thing... like I said before it's sci-fi/fantasy. It's not that strange to see a human with an alien or some other being. Look at Beauty and the Beast... And I think it goes along with some of the core ideas of tmnt, like acceptance.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Powder

People will really go to great lengths to defend inter-species incest!

But it isn't incest...

You know, I find this thread highly entertaining. ^_^

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

In Shibuya, same-sex couples can marry.

That aside, as I was saying, they weren't raised as siblings, hence why Leo's crush is probably still allowed to be a thing in the show.

I still don't get why people are weirded out by it, and not the fact that she's basically human and he's a giant turtle.

I see if this was the Brady Bunch. Those kids, albeit step siblings, were raised as siblings from a young age. It would probably feel weird there because they were raised as brothers and sisters and only see each other in that way. Can't say that for Leo and Karai.

I think it's more the fact that even though they aren't really siblings. Splinter does see himself as the Turtles father. Currently, all the Turtles refer to Splinter as their sensei and occasionally father, and both Leo and Raph have only used that term a few times.

All the Turtles know Splinter as the only father figure they have known. So he is a father to them.

Even in the 2k3 as the series started to come it's closing seasons, Splinter gradually became referred to as Sensei less and more often they called him Father.

Karai is Splinter's true-born daughter. And by that extent does make her a sister to them in that they do share the same father figure.

Leo's attraction to Karai wasn't really because he was in love with her. But more that he could sense something familial about her and mistook it for attraction.

And even if Karai wasn't Splinter's daughter, they still could never be. Because as a kunoichi she would be trained to use her gender to charm, seduce, and manipulate men into doing what she wanted.
By that regard, he could never truly trust her as a love interest because he could never tell if she was genuine or if she was just using him.

So when Leo tells Karai she can't charm him anymore, that's when he was letting her know he no longer was attracted to her.

[AlessandraDC]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I think it's more the fact that even though they aren't really siblings. Splinter does see himself as the Turtles father. Currently, all the Turtles refer to Splinter as their sensei and occasionally father, and both Leo and Raph have only used that term a few times.

All the Turtles know Splinter as the only father figure they have known. So he is a father to them.

Even in the 2k3 as the series started to come it's closing seasons, Splinter gradually became referred to as Sensei less and more often they called him Father.

Karai is Splinter's true-born daughter. And by that extent does make her a sister to them in that they do share the same father figure.

Leo's attraction to Karai wasn't really because he was in love with her. But more that he could sense something familial about her and mistook it for attraction.

And even if Karai wasn't Splinter's daughter, they still could never be. Because as a kunoichi she would be trained to use her gender to charm, seduce, and manipulate men into doing what she wanted.
By that regard, he could never truly trust her as a love interest because he could never tell if she was genuine or if she was just using him.

So when Leo tells Karai she can't charm him anymore, that's when he was letting her know he no longer was attracted to her.

The question of trust is a whole different issue. I definitely think Karai uses Leo's attraction toward her against him. And in Broken Foot he finally does sort of stand up to her in that regard by putting a stop to her manipulative efforts. But I still think they genuinely care for each other too. Considering that Karai was raised by Saki, we don't know if she knows how to love and be loved honestly. Hopefully we'll see more in the next season.

[ssjup81]

Man, I am seriously getting into this thread here. It’s fun debating this for some reason and I guess it’s due to the point that it’s not like a complex theory or whatever. *cracks knuckles* Here we go.

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I think it's more the fact that even though they aren't really siblings. Splinter does see himself as the Turtles father. Currently, all the Turtles refer to Splinter as their sensei and occasionally father, and both Leo and Raph have only used that term a few times.

Father or sensei? If referring to the former, I never really thought about it. Mikey’s never referred to Splinter as father? That’s totally surprising given the way Mikey is.

All the Turtles know Splinter as the only father figure they have known. So he is a father to them.

Yeah, pretty much.

Even in the 2k3 as the series started to come it's closing seasons, Splinter gradually became referred to as Sensei less and more often they called him Father.

That actually sounds pretty nice. I haven’t noticed it much for this series. Maybe it’s about even, the whole, “father” and “sensei” thing. Donnie, I’ve noticed, thinking about it, seems to call him Splinter and sensei a lot and I don’t recall him ever referring to him as “father”. I don’t recall Raph saying “father” much either. Leo, yeah.

Karai is Splinter's true-born daughter. And by that extent does make her a sister to them in that they do share the same father figure.

Yes and no, technically. Even though Yoshi is her biological father…Saki was still more of a father figure to her. He raised and took care of her…in his own deluded mentally unstable way. Not saying it’s right or anything, just saying that Saki was the father figure to Karai like Splinter was to the turtles. The two still weren’t raised together, though so they don’t view one another as siblings. Only Mikey seems to, getting down to it, but he also does the same with April..

Hey, how about a twist. What if Karai really is Shredder’s biological daughter? The episode that showed Teng Shen and stuff was a bit frustrating for me because of her. Saki was still pursuing her even after she’d settled down with Yoshi…presumably. I mean, why bother anymore if the woman is with another guy and have a kid together? What if she was with Saki first, broke up, and then started up with Yoshi. That’s how that episode seemed to come across to me.

Leo's attraction to Karai wasn't really because he was in love with her. But more that he could sense something familial about her and mistook it for attraction.

We have to agree to disagree on that one. I felt he genuinely liked her and was attracted to her because she was mysterious, initially, and stuff.

And even if Karai wasn't Splinter's daughter, they still could never be. Because as a kunoichi she would be trained to use her gender to charm, seduce, and manipulate men into doing what she wanted.

She’s also human and shows emotion. She does genuinely view Leo as a friend and an ally to me. She’s a bit stubborn in the sense that she seems to like to run off on her own, but I blame how she was raised for that, though. The whole revenge thing.

Spoiler:

Anywho, that’s an extremely old style and was used during Feudal Japan and started to faze out during the Meiji era. That would’ve been the 1860ss to the early 1900s (if I remember that correctly…in my spare time, I’ve been looking into Japanese eras and noteworthy things from those eras lately since my schools are kind of old and it kind of fascinates me). During the Meiji era, Japan got the restoration and Japan was starting to drop the whole Feudalism stuff. Ninja and samurai were starting to become pointless and obsolete by this point. This is the point of Japan modernizing, especially since Emperor Meiji was really into that kind of stuff and pretty much opened up Japan to “outsiders”. With the collapse of that old feudal system, samurai and ninja just joined Japan’s police force or the newly modernized military.

Technically, ninja don’t exist in modern-day Japan. That’s why the legacy of ninja and samurai, are romanticized and exaggerated so much now…especially ninja given how little we truly know about them aside from the basics and of the stuff dealing with the Iga and Koga clans.

So anyway, I kind of don’t think that she would’ve been trained for something like that…not in New York anyway, unless he had her infiltrating crime lords’ hideouts or something.

Sorry, this was pretty long and was seriously derailing, so I decided to put it under a spoiler tag.

By that regard, he could never truly trust her as a love interest because he could never tell if she was genuine or if she was just using him.

In my opinion, Karai used her charms with Leo not because she’s a ninja, but because she could see that Leo liked her. You don’t need to be a ninja to charm a guy who likes you in such a way.

So when Leo tells Karai she can't charm him anymore, that's when he was letting her know he no longer was attracted to her.

Hey, didn’t he say that her charms wouldn’t work on him “this time”? Hm, that means that any other time will definitely be okay. Okay, joking aside, I just viewed as, “I’m going to start thinking logically as opposed to thinking with my heart and feelings towards her” on Leo’s part. To me, it’s like Donnie with April. Compared to the earlier episodes, Donnie was kind of goofy over his liking of April. He would drop everything and run if April was involved, but as the show has gone on, he’s calmed down considerably. He thinks logically when around her if in a battle or whatever…not in a love-struck way.

Leo is more subtle, but the way I view Donnie when around April now, was how I interpreted Leo rejecting Karai for that situation. He was thinking ahead (like a leader) and logically. Not sure if it can be interpreted in your way, but it could be the writer’s subtle way of saying that Leo is over his crush. Who knows, but for me, I think he does still like her.

[snake]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Believe It or not, cousin marriage (blood related) is actually pretty common in the world. Infact, it has been estimated that 1 in every 10 marriages is in between first cousins. Even more surprising, it has been estimated that 80% of marriages throughout history have been between second cousins and closer. Weird right?

What the h*ck? Nah, I'm not believing that. I REFUSE.

[retr0pia75]

Isn't there enough romance crap in the series as it is?