"It sells less and less every month"

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by leo656

yeah, i remember back in the day how while ninjara was rather popular with some fans, there were also plenty who were like "get this kissy-face crap out of my ninja turtles books." so these aren't even new conversations.

It just used to be very understood that "nobody reads tmnt for romance and relationships, period," and now there's a very small yet vocal minority who wants tmnt to suddenly be that and they won't settle for being told that it's simply not the best use of the characters.

But that's the way it works nowadays. A couple people want something a whole bunch, while nobody else cares about or wants that. But that handful of people will scream over and over about how "important" it is for them to get their way, and so they get their way, and meanwhile the majority who don't want/don't care get called names.

- tmnt has never been a romance comic or a "slice of life" drama
- most people don't want it to be either of those things, it runs entirely counter to every single thing they ever liked about the franchise
- any business that makes it a point to ignore and belittle its own audience simply isn't destined for a grand future

again. If we went back to 1991 and someone, anyone said, "i like ninja turtles and everything but i wish the stories were more about a bunch of mutants sitting around not doing anything, and the turtles themselves were barely in it and there was a lot of romance and political stuff in it"... That person now has an entire lunch table to themselves.

I miss the "keep your dumb ideas to yourself, because they are dumb" era. But as others have said... Internet.

Well, let's redirect our blame to the man responsible....

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Well, let's redirect our blame to the man responsible....

Makes sense. Gore used to rub his rod to Turtlecest fics back in the day.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Her sexual preference in and of itself may not be development per se, but an aspect of what we knew or assumed of the character was altered; Jennika being straight was an assumption made by readers, her being revealed as bi with Sheena was a deliberate confirmation of that aspect of her character and that absolutely is development.

It's no different than an existing character gaining a family member or attaining a new skillset - it's a defined component of the character's overall persona and their history.

Originally Posted by hypered1

Don't be ignorant Andrew we both know you're better than that.
Character relationships have always been a type of development ever since comics first began.

These statements are somewhat contradictory and I urge you to be more consistent. Even if you were correct, we still wouldn't be dealing with good examples here. Her sexuality is not that interesting because it doesn't change anything beyond retconning a story I'm not sure anyone cares about (I certainly don't) and does so in a very minor way.

Now, let's counter these arguments with some other examples.

First off, revelations as a substitute for character development? Oof, off to a bad start, aren't we? That can quite often just come across as forced retcons, not a good idea to use as a defense at all. Not to mention that one of the examples, gaining a new skill, is quite a problem for you ain't it? If we were to get a story in which a character learned something new off-panel, it is plot-important and it was never mentioned before, you'd probably call bullshit on that. It can so easily be abused a deus ex machina. Revealing that a character has some previously unmentioned is usually just a means of introducing a new character, while previous characters may have a different dynamic with this new character but it doesn't change much about them, if does it's through the interaction and not the revelation itself. And if you're talking about soap opera shit like "I'm not really your Father, I'm your Step-Sister!", don't dignify that crap, it's mocked for a reason.

If we are however talking about it having a role in the story, we can use Hobgoblin Lives as an example. Now to be clear, Hobgoblin Lives literally just exists so that Roger Stern retcon a stupid editorial decision made by Christopher Priest, it's nothing but a giant retcon and arguably not great on it's own. However, it does recontextualise the Hobgoblin and Ned Leeds in ways that arguably improve previous stories. I already explained why this thing with Jennika does not do that, the one story it does alter is still lame to me.

Spoiler:

As for relationships being part of development, Romeo and Juliet, that's all I need to point out. Relationships still need to have an impact on the plot and be significant to it in some sense. Most of the realtionships here just seems to be there because the writer shipped the characters and not because it served any particular purpose.

Originally Posted by hypered1

Except they didn't; since #101 there have been TWO new relationships: Jennika/Sheena and Donnie/Mona.

And as I've said before the other new characters are just students of the dojo, occasional henchmen for badguys or crowd fillers.

If we're only talking about relationships with previously established characters, sure, that is technically true. You are however being very misleading here, just like with the "Sophie worked on Mirage" thing and I think you are doing it deliberately so you have an easy way of dismissing criticism. If you are doing it on purpose, please stop.

Now, while Jennika and Donnie may indeed have been established before Mutant Town, Sheena and Mona weren't. Indeed, their main purpose does indeed seem to be for the purpose of giving other characters love interests. It is also technically true that Raph and Alopex had something going on but it was not a clear cut lover relationship before Mutant Town and it certainly wasn't the primary factor of either character. We should also not forget the implication of Leo and Koya having a relationship in a future timeline... And you seriously think what they have in the prime timeline constitutes anything resembling love or a crush... You have problems and I think Sophie only wrote that out of some obsession with shipping. Then there is of course the alternative hinted at recently, Carmen and Leo, which seems like the lesser of two evils when compared to Koya and Leo. Then we also have minor characters like the Platypus and the Raccoon casually pointing out they are in a relationship. It may not be all over the place with a million relationships, but it is true that at least two characters have been introduced for the purpose of being shipping bait.

And the with fact that basically nothing ever happens with mutant town, it's basically just standing still, I really can't blame anyone for thinking this has become the focus of the series. Personally I would say the series lost focus over all, which is why I don't usually specify this since it just blends into the overall meaningless nothing soup that is mutant town.

[hypered1]

#1: The two statements are not contradictory as the second reinforces the point that the first is an example of something that's being happening for almost a century.

#2: Jennika being bi is NOT a retcon - a no point was ever said point blank that she was NOT bi.

#3: I never mentioned Leo and Koya as they are not in a relationship and have no interest in each other and Leo's interactions with Carmen amount to mutual respect at most - don't put words in my mouth and don't twist what I have said to suit your own purposes.

#4: Raph and Alopex have been a couple since issue #66 and there have been several instances that showed them in this light pre-#101.

You idiots keep seeing demons and monsters where simply aren't any; so much of complaining is based on an incredible amount of exaggeration of what amounts to a handful minor issues at best.

So they introduced two female characters and eventually put them in a relationship - big deal, who cares.

You all need to stop being so ridiculously offended by something that literally does not affect you in any way.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by hypered1

#1: The two statements are not contradictory as the second reinforces the point that the first is an example of something that's being happening for almost a century.

#2: Jennika being bi is NOT a retcon - a no point was ever said point blank that she was NOT bi.

#3: I never mentioned Leo and Koya as they are not in a relationship and have no interest in each other and Leo's interactions with Carmen amount to mutual respect at most - don't put words in my mouth and don't twist what I have said to suit your own purposes.

#4: Raph and Alopex have been a couple since issue #66 and there have been several instances that showed them in this light pre-#101.

You idiots keep seeing demons and monsters where simply aren't any; so much of complaining is based on an incredible amount of exaggeration of what amounts to a handful minor issues at best.

So they introduced two female characters and eventually put them in a relationship - big deal, who cares.

You all need to stop being so ridiculously offended by something that literally does not affect you in any way.

Technically speaking, our complaining about it doesn't affect you in any way either, so follow your own advice, chief.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Technically speaking, our complaining about it doesn't affect you in any way either, so follow your own advice, chief.

But then how will these people push the Kool-Aid on us?

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Technically speaking, our complaining about it doesn't affect you in any way either, so follow your own advice, chief.

The difference is that unlike the miserable, spiteful jackasses on here I'm NOT wishing for the series to be completely cancelled.

They need to stop being so terrified of change.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by hypered1

The difference is that unlike the miserable, spiteful jackasses on here I'm NOT wishing for the series to be completely cancelled.

They need to stop being so terrified of change.

Cancelled? No. Better. Yes.

No one here wants the comic cancelled. They want it to get good again before sales drop so low that IDW cancels it.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by hypered1

They need to stop being so terrified of change.

Ah yes, the "You just don't like change" argument. The argument that fools always fall back upon when their position is untenable.

Change is not inherently good. Change for the sake of change and for the sake of pushing "the message" is what's been ruining established franchises for the last 8 years or so. The mark of people who lack talent, standing atop the shoulders of people who already put in the work to develop good stories and characters, while simultaneously taking a dump on their head to push their own version foward and "leave their mark." If your work can't cut it without hijacking an established brand, then you never had the talent to make it in the first place.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Cancelled? No. Better. Yes.

No one here wants the comic cancelled. They want it to get good again before sales drop so low that IDW cancels it.

And as I keep pointing out the sales numbers for the last few issues have been some of the series' highest ever and the highest they've had since the early years.
IDW are having no problems selling the comic and people need to stop listening to random dumbasses on youtube who don't know what they are talking about and who tout random made up rumours as if they are facts.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Ah yes, the "You just don't like change" argument. The argument that fools always fall back upon when their position is untenable.

Change is not inherently good. Change for the sake of change and for the sake of pushing "the message" is what's been ruining established franchises for the last 8 years or so. The mark of people who lack talent, standing atop the shoulders of people who already put in the work to develop good stories and characters, while simultaneously taking a dump on their head to push their own version foward and "leave their mark." If your work can't cut it without hijacking an established brand, then you never had the talent to make it in the first place.

Yes, change can be good or bad but it's also a matter of opinion and ultimately the people running the show will follow the loudest voices which for this comic are voices that are in favour of the changes that have been made.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Ah yes, the "You just don't like change" argument. The argument that fools always fall back upon when their position is untenable.

Change is not inherently good. Change for the sake of change and for the sake of pushing "the message" is what's been ruining established franchises for the last 8 years or so. The mark of people who lack talent, standing atop the shoulders of people who already put in the work to develop good stories and characters, while simultaneously taking a dump on their head to push their own version foward and "leave their mark." If your work can't cut it without hijacking an established brand, then you never had the talent to make it in the first place.

A-f*cking-men, pal.

Also the "good guys" coming in with the name-calling because most people don't wanna pay four bucks a month for Furry Fic Shipper Adventures (Guest Starring Ninja Turtles When We Remember).

Those people need to stick to jerking each other off on ff.net if they can't handle being told "Most People Hate This." Because they're NOT gonna suddenly like it just because you call them "idiots" and "bigots", I got news for ya.

"Gee, a gay person called me a name, I'd better reevaluate all of my opinions and life choices." NOT how it works.

[MattOnWheels]

Yikes, the tone f this thread is not pleasant at all. I think BOTH sides are off base here..

Originally Posted by Leo656

A-f*cking-men, pal.

Also the "good guys" coming in with the name-calling because most people don't wanna pay four bucks a month for Furry Fic Shipper Adventures (Guest Starring Ninja Turtles When We Remember).

Those people need to stick to jerking each other off on ff.net if they can't handle being told "Most People Hate This." Because they're NOT gonna suddenly like it just because you call them "idiots" and "bigots", I got news for ya.

"Gee, a gay person called me a name, I'd better reevaluate all of my opinions and life choices." NOT how it works.

Excuse me, but im one of the people disagreeing with you here and I don't think I've ever treated you that way in this conversation. It sounds like you're lumping all the people who disagree with you together here. Don't do that.

Edit: Plus, maybe you would avoid that kind of banter if you weren't trying to be antagonistic about it yourself. You're not purely innocent here. I mean, hey: I'm not even angry, I just think that's hypercritical of you to say.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by hypered1

#1: The two statements are not contradictory as the second reinforces the point that the first is an example of something that's being happening for almost a century.

It's contradiction in the sense that say a relationship isn't development in it's own right and then you it is. It is the wording you used.

Originally Posted by hypered1

#2: Jennika being bi is NOT a retcon - a no point was ever said point blank that she was NOT bi.

What is being retconned here is that a story that was not meant to be romantic is retconned to have a romantic context in order to justify the revelation. While I don't really care about the story in question, that is what's going on here. I didn't claim that the revelation itself was a retcon.

Originally Posted by hypered1

#3: I never mentioned Leo and Koya as they are not in a relationship and have no interest in each other and Leo's interactions with Carmen amount to mutual respect at most - don't put words in my mouth and don't twist what I have said to suit your own purposes.

Oh boy, this is going to take a bit to explain to you, isn't it? The "short" answer is that I merely stated you left things out to make your point, which is bad but I didn't claim you denied these thing, even though you still kind of do by claiming only two relationships are new or that any new characters are minor. There isn't much of a need to twist what you say when you clearly leave things out, say incorrect things and ignore context. It's so easy to point out the flaws in because it's just poorly constructed.

Leo and Koya explicitly stated to be in a relationship the timeline Lita came from and I explicitly made it clear that is what I was talking about. It is also worth noting that much of what has stated about Lita's timeline is clearly intended to be suggestions for future development. Overall Sophie seems to have a strange fascination with trying to pair these two up but knows it makes no sense, so she instead throws in the suggestion there hoping someone else will try to make it happen, which is weird. Anyway, here is the page in case you feel like denying it.

Spoiler:

As for Carmen, technically you can technically draw that conclusion if you want to. However, the issue in which they meet and she is introduced begins with Leo seemingly lamenting that he has no love interest and ends with him forming a positive connection to her. Let's not kid ourselves here, in context this is clearly setting up a relationship, the only reason to doubt it is because the writer isn't very skilled and has a history of doing set up poorly.

Originally Posted by hypered1

#4: Raph and Alopex have been a couple since issue #66 and there have been several instances that showed them in this light pre-#101.

I didn't really deny this either but it wasn't in focus and it is 101 onwards that decided to make it a bigger deal than it used to be. On the subject of issue 66, what you get is Raph admitting he has feelings for her to Angel, I really urge you to find the exact quote where they claim to be a couple because I sure as hell can't find it. As far as I can remember, it was not super clear before 101, if I'm wrong and you can find an exlpicit mention of it before that point, I'll concede this point but I doubt you'll have better luck than me. This is another example of you crafting a misleading statement to make a point, a kernel of truth does not make it the whole truth. Once again, please stop and just be clear, an otherwise incorrect point sprinkled with truth is still incorrect.

Originally Posted by hypered1

You idiots keep seeing demons and monsters where simply aren't any; so much of complaining is based on an incredible amount of exaggeration of what amounts to a handful minor issues at best.

So they introduced two female characters and eventually put them in a relationship - big deal, who cares.

You all need to stop being so ridiculously offended by something that literally does not affect you in any way.

And this is a perfect example of deflection and distraction. Let's go over the problems with this final part.

First off, there are major issues with this book and just because we are arguing over what might be perceived as minor issues here, that doesn't mean we are primarily dealing with minor issues.

Secondly, even if we only ever talked about minor issues and if these are minor issues, that doesn't mean they aren't issues. The problem with the "that is is just a nitpick" thing is deflection, it doesn't address why the minor problem isn't a problem or why it is irrelevant, it's just a statement that it is and a plea to move along. It is also worth noting that minor problems can still get numerous enough to the point where they become hard to ignore. A minor problem is still a problem.

Thirdly, we get an attempt to shift away from a previous point made and a declaration that the rebuttal is irrelevant. Here is the timeline:

• Coola Yagami claims characters were created for the purpose of being put into relationships and that there are a lot of new characters, in a humorous exaggeration.
• hypered1 responds by saying there are only two new relationships and most of the new characters are essentially background/very minor characters.
• I point out this is misleading because old relationship are given more spotlight than they used, at least two were created for this purpose and there are hints of more to come.
• hypered1 responds by saying this isn't a big deal and that being bothered by it is silly, essentially using a misleading statement to distract from a previously misleading claim.

Fourthly, "You all need to stop being so ridiculously offended by something that literally does not affect you in any way" is another deflection. We are discussing the quality of a comic book on a forum for said comic book. Trying to claim this is about being "offended" is meaningless. The discussion about whether or not this comic works on a structural level, what it's content it, how well new ideas a implemented, if it actually appeals to the core audience, etc. are important things to discuss here. If the comic book went bad and we used to read it when it was good, we should point out that it went bad and no amount of "leave us alone" statement from people who still (claim to) like it is going to stop that.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Yes, change can be good or bad but it's also a matter of opinion and ultimately the people running the show will follow the loudest voices which for this comic are voices that are in favour of the changes that have been made.

Must be why nothing changed starting with #125. Oh, wait.

[MattOnWheels]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

People forget, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


Personally I don't get it. They obviously love the series AS IS or else they wouldn't be fans to begin with. So why try to change things and ruin it? This exactly why niche things stop being awesome once they become mainstream. The normies ruin it.

They aren't TRYING to ruin it, and they aren'r doing that. The comic will be around, man. If you don't like it now, its okay. I can assure you plenty still do. Me included.

I mean, the truth is always a grey area. Yes, Im sure a lot of fans feel alienated over "ZOMG Furry Pr0n" (Which is a flawed thing to call it) and it hasn't helped that as of now the plot is dragging a bit, but this is NOT some end times scenario, nor are the Turtles "Ruined".

It's going to be OK.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Fourthly, "You all need to stop being so ridiculously offended by something that literally does not affect you in any way" is another deflection. We are discussing the quality of a comic book on a forum for said comic book. Trying to claim this is about being "offended" is meaningless. The discussion about whether or not this comic works on a structural level, what it's content it, how well new ideas a implemented, if it actually appeals to the core audience, etc. are important things to discuss here. If the comic book went bad and we used to read it when it was good, we should point out that it went bad and no amount of "leave us alone" statement from people who still (claim to) like it is going to stop that.

I think you're correct in that this person is overdoing it. It isn't just a case of being offended. That would imply an absolute in play here which isn't the case. People have presented their feelings in a mature manner and don't deserve to have ad-hominem attacks thrown at them. However, surely if we're going to say that, we must also acknowledge that there has been some fault on the side of those that are voicing displeasure about the comic as well. Frankly, the discourse on both sides has been rather...extreme, on the part of some here. Yes, it isn't as simple as "Lol you're just afraid of change" - but neither is it as simple as "lol. look at the triggered SJW's" by a long shot.

This honestly has evolved beyond the comic itself into more of a political discussion about social justice issues within media, and we should be aware of that before this gets really out of hand. IMO, anyway.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MattOnWheels

Yikes, the tone f this thread is not pleasant at all. I think BOTH sides are off base here..

Excuse me, but im one of the people disagreeing with you here and I don't think I've ever treated you that way in this conversation. It sounds like you're lumping all the people who disagree with you together here. Don't do that.

Edit: Plus, maybe you would avoid that kind of banter if you weren't trying to be antagonistic about it yourself. You're not purely innocent here. I mean, hey: I'm not even angry, I just think that's hypercritical of you to say.

I generalize as a rule. It saves time. Again, someone who's lurked here often for a long time would have been prepared for this.

They'd also know that I don't change my mind or behavior at all simply because someone asks nicely or says they disagree. A person is allowed to disagree, and I'm allowed to shake my head and sigh and hope they one day find enlightenment.

I think the mistake people so often make when they engage me in conversation, regardless of topic, is that they somehow think I respect their opinion. I don't know how anyone gets that idea; I think I make it pretty clear that I don't. I mean, we can talk, and that's fine, and I find the back-and-forth amusing or else I wouldn't bother.

But I think some people really feel like there's a chance they might somehow change my mind if they just keep trying, and I can assure You and They that simply isn't ever going to happen. Regardless of topic, it just isn't going to happen. And I feel like people need to know that upfront before they choose to engage. It'll save them a ton of heartburn and typing.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by MattOnWheels

They aren't TRYING to ruin it, and they aren'r doing that. The comic will be around, man. If you don't like it now, its okay. I can assure you plenty still do. Me included.

I mean, the truth is always a grey area. Yes, Im sure a lot of fans feel alienated over "ZOMG Furry Pr0n" (Which is a flawed thing to call it) and it hasn't helped that as of now the plot is dragging a bit, but this is NOT some end times scenario, nor are the Turtles "Ruined".

It's going to be OK.

I doubt anyone literally thinks this qualifies as porn and I don't think anyone who calls it porn are doing so with the expectation that it will be taken literally, you'd have be the biggest moron who ever lived to think that.

As for the Turtles being ruined... Eh... You might be able to argue that this comic has been ruined by this run, though I still see a way it could still turn around... Even if it would require some necessary evils like randomly introducing and delivering the mass cure out of nowhere...

Originally Posted by MattOnWheels

This honestly has evolved beyond the comic itself into more of a political discussion about social justice issues within media, and we should be aware of that before this gets really out of hand. IMO, anyway.

Yes, this is very annoying and I wish the discussion would just stick to the comic itself. I really hate this culture war crap and I wish people could learn to be more mature about politics than that, realise how fruitless it is to constantly and blindly defend "their side" when the reality is much more complex than "My side, your side". Or at the very least learn to know when discussing politics is appropriate and when it's not to discuss politics, doing so when discussing a comic book with barely any explicit political content because it happens to feature a lesbian pig... I mean... Why don't people just feel stupid doing that? I mean let's be real here, how hard is it to discuss a comic book without feeling the need to discuss some tangentially related real life issue?

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I generalize as a rule. It saves time. Again, someone who's lurked here often for a long time would have been prepared for this.

They'd also know that I don't change my mind or behavior at all simply because someone asks nicely or says they disagree. A person is allowed to disagree, and I'm allowed to shake my head and sigh and hope they one day find enlightenment.

I think the mistake people so often make when they engage me in conversation, regardless of topic, is that they somehow think I respect their opinion. I don't know how anyone gets that idea; I think I make it pretty clear that I don't. I mean, we can talk, and that's fine, and I find the back-and-forth amusing or else I wouldn't bother.

But I think some people really feel like there's a chance they might somehow change my mind if they just keep trying, and I can assure You and They that simply isn't ever going to happen. Regardless of topic, it just isn't going to happen. And I feel like people need to know that upfront before they choose to engage. It'll save them a ton of heartburn and typing.

That's because you're a brain-dead dipsh1t.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MattOnWheels

but neither is it as simple as "lol. look at the triggered SJW's" by a long shot.

Ehhhhhhh... mostly, yeah.

They really, REALLY can't handle it when too many people pop up and say "I Hate This" and immediately go back to defending the book like it's their paid job (which in turn leads to all the accusation of being "plants" and whatnot).

And if you follow them to other corners of the internet you'll see that it's just how they act whenever anyone disagrees with them about anything. It's not Just Here and it's not Just About TMNT Comics. It's that to a generally left-leaning person, "freedom of expression" only counts so long as you 100% agree with them. Otherwise "you need to be silenced or shouted down". That's how they feel, the topic at hand is not so relevant. This specific conversation is just a microcosm of a much larger issue. That being "Leftists Demand Total Agreement And Obedience Or Else They Scream Bloody Murder."