Tmnt #300

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by frank_one

Because they want it to look like a wider celebration, something related to whole TMNT history in comics, not just IDW.

But it's not related to the "whole TMNT history in comics" since they excluded the largest selling book TMNT book from TMNT's history.

Originally Posted by TurtleGurkle

You're right, they're TMNT volumes 5 and 6.

Not by any stretch of the imagination, no. That hasn't been how comics has worked since ever.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by frank_one

Because they want it to look like a wider celebration, something related to whole TMNT history in comics, not just IDW.

It’s just weird that they’re including Chris Allan in the back up story but also blowing off TMNTA for the legacy numbering.

I feel like 15 years of IDW TMNT would be more appropriate. They have/are working on reprinting everything. They’ve done some soft crossover with Mirage via B&R Destroy Everything and Battle Nexus. They capped off the Image run. They’ve given us new stories from various iterations in their incredible Anniversary Special comics.

No fake math required!

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

So it's based on quality and literary merit?

In that case, we need to throw out much of the Mirage guest-era, most of the Sophie run, and the entire Jason Aaron run.

That's not really the point either.

It's kinda hard to explain but Archie's Adventures series simply just was never considered the main book, it just wasn't ever presented as such and it wasn't ever the intention for it to be. IDW may use a different continuity but those 170 issues are basically considered the main book in the same sense that Post-Crisis and New 52 books are just as much the main book as the Pre-Crisis DC books were. Nobody really considers the Batman TAS tie-in comics to be main Batman books though, even though there may be plenty of them and Harley's origin being established there, they just aren't considered that. The same also goes for stuff like Ultimate Spider-Man not being a main Spider-Man book, so don't think it's just stuff for kids' that don't really count.

I'm sure plenty of people are fond of the Archie series and that it was successful at the time, but a successful side-project is still just a side project.

[TurtleGurkle]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

But it's not related to the "whole TMNT history in comics" since they excluded the largest selling book TMNT book from TMNT's history.



Not by any stretch of the imagination, no. That hasn't been how comics has worked since ever.

Titles get relaunched as a new volume # all the time though?

[Daytona]

It’s an industry-wide embarrassment at this point. They all became absolutely addicted to new #1’s along with any other gimmick they could get their hands on, all while editorial went mad with power and fan-rage, driving off readers who wanted compelling stories…. But now they want to slip back into bed with the ex-wife and pretend this is their big anniversary. They’re all doing it.

But I’ll actually give IDW a little slack here bc they ran the original IDW run longer than basically any of their modern contemporaries before renumbering. They’ve actually been relatively classy in that respect. This attempt to justify #300 is indeed a mess though.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by neatoman

That's not really the point either.

It's kinda hard to explain but Archie's Adventures series simply just was never considered the main book

You keep talking about "main book" and that doesn't make any sense. You'd be hard-pressed to explain that to the "main audience" at the time who largely weren't even aware of the existence of a Mirage book because it wasn't on newstands or in grocery stores or anything like that or selling anywhere near the 180,000 copies a month TMNTA was doing for much of its height.

Originally Posted by TurtleGurkle

Titles get relaunched as a new volume # all the time though?

Of course. If it's the same incarnation/universe. No one in their right mind ever would have considered Dreamwave to be TMNT Vol. 4 or something. Or like if there was a Batman comic in the 90s based on Batgirl from Batman: The Animated Series, then many years later there's the new Batgirl comic starring the regular DCU Batgirl, that doesn't make it a Vol. 2 either.

[TurtleGurkle]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

You keep talking about "main book" and that doesn't make any sense. You'd be hard-pressed to explain that to the "main audience" at the time who largely weren't even aware of the existence of a Mirage book because it wasn't on newstands or in grocery stores or anything like that or selling anywhere near the 180,000 copies a month TMNTA was doing for much of its heigh.



Of course. If it's the same incarnation/universe. No one in their right mind ever would have considered Dreamwave to be TMNT Vol. 4 or something. Or like if there was a Batman comic in the 90s based on Batgirl from Batman: The Animated Series, then many years later there's the new Batgirl comic starring the regular DCU Batgirl, that doesn't make it a Vol. 2 either.

DC has done it so many times. Superman vol. 2 relaunched in the 1980s with the post-crisis version of Superman. The New 52 relaunched everything again and we got a new Superman and Superman vol. 3. These stories get patched together later through the "multiverse" or whatever you want to call it but that's been the case with TMNT as well.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TurtleGurkle

DC has done it so many times. Superman vol. 2 relaunched in the 1980s with the post-crisis version of Superman. The New 52 relaunched everything again and we got a new Superman and Superman vol. 3. These stories get patched together later through the "multiverse" or whatever you want to call it but that's been the case with TMNT as well.

If Vol. 4 had wrapped up or been cancelled to where "th-th-th-th-that's ALL folks!" for sure with ALL rights being tidily handed over to the new rights owner and THEN they made a Vol. 5 that has nothing to do with Vols. 1-4 then the DC model might apply.

But that's not what happened. Vol. 4 never even really ended at all. And if he wanted to Laird could put out new issues of it tomorrow, or make his own Vol. 5 next week for 18 issues a years until he dies.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by neatoman

That's not really the point either.

I was being obtuse. I didn’t think your analogy made any sense, sorry lol

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

You keep talking about "main book" and that doesn't make any sense. You'd be hard-pressed to explain that to the "main audience" at the time who largely weren't even aware of the existence of a Mirage book because it wasn't on newstands or in grocery stores or anything like that or selling anywhere near the 180,000 copies a month TMNTA was doing for much of its height.

That part.

Of course. If it's the same incarnation/universe. No one in their right mind ever would have considered Dreamwave to be TMNT Vol. 4 or something. Or like if there was a Batman comic in the 90s based on Batgirl from Batman: The Animated Series, then many years later there's the new Batgirl comic starring the regular DCU Batgirl, that doesn't make it a Vol. 2 either.

Get smart, people!

[TurtleGurkle]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If Vol. 4 had wrapped up or been cancelled to where "th-th-th-th-that's ALL folks!" for sure with ALL rights being tidily handed over to the new rights owner and THEN they made a Vol. 5 that has nothing to do with Vols. 1-4 then the DC model might apply.

But that's not what happened. Vol. 4 never even really ended at all. And if he wanted to Laird could put out new issues of it tomorrow, or make his own Vol. 5 next week for 18 issues a years until he dies.

I don't see how having an ending makes a difference in volume numbers. Comic series end all the time before their creators want them to. Look at the history of Blue Beetle. Multiple publishers, different main characters, sometimes it was canceled or the IP changed hands. There was an 18 year gap between Blue Beetle Vol. 5 and 6, and then another 18 year gap between vols. 6 and 7.

If/when Laird decides to finish Vol. 4 I'm sure it will come out under the "Journeys" label and not count towards the official volume, since that seems to be the precedent IDW is setting with Urban Legends.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by TurtleGurkle

I don't see how having an ending makes a difference in volume numbers. Comic series end all the time before their creators want them to. Look at the history of Blue Beetle. Multiple publishers, different main characters, sometimes it was canceled or the IP changed hands. There was an 18 year gap between Blue Beetle Vol. 5 and 6, and then another 18 year gap between vols. 6 and 7.

If/when Laird decides to finish Vol. 4 I'm sure it will come out under the "Journeys" label and not count towards the official volume, since that seems to be the precedent IDW is setting with Urban Legends.

Well, a hypothetical volume 4 #33+ aside, Peter is well within his right to print a new story in the Mirage universe that takes place years after volume 4 and title it “Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1”

What the hell else would you call that other than Vol. 5?

[TurtleGurkle]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Well, a hypothetical volume 4 #33+ aside, Peter is well within his right to print a new story in the Mirage universe that take place years after volume 4 and title it “Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1”

What the hell else would you call that other than Vol. 5?

I have no idea! Volume 4.1? Even though he saw volume 3 as non-canon and it didn't get an ending he still called his book "volume 4"

[Zog The Magnificent]

Even though in practice, I only refer to the Mirage Volumes by number, and just call the others "IDW" or "Archie," there is precedent for calling IDW Vol. 5 and Vol. 6, because that's simply how it works on paper with other series. Every time a DC or Marvel character headlines a new series, be it a continuation, a reboot, or starring another character wearing the mantle, they're all called Vol. X. I mean, Swamp Thing Vol. 5 is a reboot, Vol. 6 is a miniseries that isn't in continuity with the first four volumes, and Vol. 7 is also a reboot (kind of) and stars a completely different character.

Even though they're not related beyond the title, that is how it tends to be referred to in the industry itself, if only for convenience sake. So even though I don't actually do it, I can't say I'm wholly against it, even if I'm against it on principle.

[Nortock Diab]

Isn't IDW themselves calling their series IDW Vol.1 and IDW Vol.2?
That settles it, doesn't it?

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by neatoman

More like saying a picture book based on Disney's Tarzan takes lower priority than the actual Burroughs novels. The picture is arguably more familiar to people but it's not like anyone considers that as making it more important.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

I was being obtuse. I didn’t think your analogy made any sense, sorry lol

To give you a non-flippant response:

This analogy only really works if the original ‘88 3-part miniseries existed on its own and never had any follow up.

Imagine if this Tarzan picture book continued as a series written by one man (with specials and spinoffs coming out concurrently) and lasted for nearly 8 years, existing off of an entirely original plot with almost zero overlap with the Burroughs novels. I think that would warrant classification as its own distinct pillar of Tarzan lore.

(Not to mention fans spending 25+ years clamoring for its continuation after its premature demise and unsuccessful soft reboot… only for some fans/artists to hire the main artist and seek guidance from the writer to finish his last story. And then proceed to continue the narrative as an independently published and crowd funded series.)

I don’t think it’s fair to discount it on the basis of it starting out as a Fred Wolf cartoon adaptation. While the IDW-verse isn’t a tie-in comic for a show or movie… it’s just as derivative as one would be and also literally couldn’t exist without the FW cartoon, even if it was never a straight adaptation of it.

Despite its origins, TMNTA remains probably the most unique and original of the adapted versions of Turtles out there. It’s only real competition is Rise.

Originally Posted by TurtleGurkle

I have no idea! Volume 4.1? Even though he saw volume 3 as non-canon and it didn't get an ending he still called his book "volume 4"

Vol. 3 officially ended publishing in 1999. It ended on a cliff hanger, but it ended.

Peter left it be as “Vol. 3” because it was published at Mirage’s behest as a continuation of Vol. 2 and he wanted to avoid confusion, despite not wanting to continue/acknowledge that story.

Vol. 4 never officially ended. It petered out (heh) and went on hiatus, with 4 issues trickling out over the years. We know for a fact the Laird purposely retained the right for Mirage to print up to 18 comics a year. However incredibly unlikely, Peter could announce tomorrow that Mirage is continuing Vol. 4 as a monthly series next year. Or do a new #1, and the only sane thing to call it would be “Mirage Vol. 5”.

[frank_one]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

However incredibly unlikely, Peter could announce tomorrow that Mirage is continuing Vol. 4 as a monthly series next year. Or do a new #1, and the only sane thing to call it would be “Mirage Vol. 5”.

I would call it Laird's 2027 series. Who cares what number it is or what came before it at this point?

[ToTheNines]

Sure, that’s fine. But by that logic you have IDW’s 2011 series and their 2024 series. They are not and never will be Vol. 5 & 6.

[frank_one]

To me everything made sense up until volume 4. Then there was the buyout and slowly Mirage ceased to exist. A new series by Laird would be something special at this point, not just a new chapter or a new "volume". BUT, sure, if you want to put a number on it it would be volume 5.
IDW stuff is their own thing, not volume 5 or 6.

[CyberCubed]

Every time I read the thread title I think of the movie 300 and TMNT having a parody issue about it.

[ToTheNines]

More TMNT ripping off Frank Miller. SAD!