Bebop and Rocksteady Discussion Thread

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I think the only interesting use of them in anything, ever was how Murphy handled them in the Archies.

Really? I thought they were even more annoying than their FW counterparts. They were used much more sparingly, but I hated that overly stupid dialogue he always wrote them with. And it’s not like they ever had an actual arc or anything.

I did like the way he wrote them out, as well as their return in “Paper or Plastic?”

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Really? I thought they were even more annoying than their FW counterparts.

I didn't say it was much but it's still better than "Youse boss gits toilet soup!" or empty-headed whatever. Their very existence reduces the credibility of whoever is holding their reins at a given moment. And bottom line, if you HAVE to make the Turtles even more less unique and add to the mutant population for some reason, Bebop and Rocksteady are pretty much the piss poorest reasons for anyone to do so.

[neatoman]

Are we seriously discussing whether the Archie or FW version of Bebop and Rocksteady are more annoying? They're both equally dumb, overly incompetent, needless bird brained abominations. And I honestly can't tell the two of them apart half the time because I don't go by motion or sound, I go by amount of pain in my ass, which makes them both identical. Alright, everything resolved? Everybody nice and certain about their position?

[Heyowakka]

Not me, but only because they make you so angry. I like Bebop and Rocksteady, I think they’re funny.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by neatoman

And I honestly can't tell the two of them apart half the time because I don't go by motion or sound, I go by amount of pain in my ass, which makes them both identical.

Rocksteady is white and Bebop is black, so that's one difference!

In the original show at least, Rocksteady tended to be more of a leader and Bebop tended to agree with what he said most of the time. Rocksteady was like, "It's Turtle trashing time!" and Bebop was like, "We're gonna pulverize you shellbacks!"

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Rocksteady is white and Bebop is black, so that's one difference!

Nobody remembers which one was black and which one was white when they were humans for 5 seconds in the first episode. Their fans just remember the toys and the catchphrases and the voices and forget or deliberately look over their complete incompetency on every level.

[ToTheNines]

I might be crazy, but does anyone else remember Tristan Jones revealing a pitch he was working on where he was going to have a rhino and warthog get mutated at the zoo or something? I remember him saying they would just be mindless beasts the turtles had to deal with. I’ll see if I can dig this up.

Originally Posted by Heyowakka

Not me, but only because they make you so angry. I like Bebop and Rocksteady, I think they’re funny.

Yeah I think you either love the show or hate it. It is what it is and they’re a part of the cast. I still love the show obviously, and they have plenty of funny moments. I guess I do resent the fact that subsequent versions have felt the need to include them just because.

- I definitely used to like the IDW versions. It’s hard to look back fondly on any of it at this point, and when they pop up now it’s just kind of boring and played out.

- The 2012 versions were supremely annoying and overused once they debuted.

- That godforsaken movie sucked ass. (Am I talking about OotS or MM? You decide!)

- I missed this upon my first reading of TLR: The Lost Years, but human versions of them are Purple Dragons in a flashback where they get killed after they try to kill April.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

- The 2012 versions were supremely annoying and overused once they debuted.

And completely pointless, the show already had a bunch of mutant henchmen for Shredder, though I can't tell if it happened because Playmates wanted more action figures, if Paramount demanded they should be there after a while or if the writers genuinely wanted them there. The show did however take a longass time to produce new episodes, so I doubt they ever had any time to base their newfound prominence on audience engagement, in turn I'm just going to assume they stole so much time from the established characters because someone made a pre-emptive decision and just assumed the audience would react well to them. Kinda like how Tiger Claw ended up being like a reverse Boba Fett in terms of popularity, but least the false impression that Bebop and Rocksteady ever actually mattered because the FW cartoon kept using them is a thing, so the decision makes a bit more sense than "please love out super-duper-mega-cool-awesome-tiger-OC".

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

- That godforsaken movie sucked ass. (Am I talking about OotS or MM? You decide!)

Well, MM is the movie where they're just kinda there and blend in with the other pointless characters and probably wouldn't leave any sort of impression on any kids whose first exposure to TMNT would be that movie. If the reason Bebop and Rocksteady keep getting artificially propped up no matter how irrelevant they are in general wasn't a factor, I wouldn't be surprised if they were just forgotten about in the sequel, they were basically almost forgotten about in the cartoon (didn't even get actual dialogue).

OotS essentially has them be the main characters for no reason despite being written in a super annoying way... And get a dick joke... Their entire role in that makes me wonder why the writers, director, producers and actors never stopped and thought "Maybe these characters are terrible and we ought to change them?".

So... OotS?

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

- I missed this upon my first reading of TLR: The Lost Years, but human versions of them are Purple Dragons in a flashback where they get killed after they try to kill April.

https://i.imgur.com/smemeZO.jpeg

And by existing just for the purpose of getting killed like they're nothing and don't even remotely matter, that makes them the best version of Bebop and Rocksteady by default.

Spoiler:

Just like the IDW version of Vernon.

[Heyowakka]

Sometimes I think Neatoman may be my evil universe doppelgänger. Or maybe I’m the evil one? Nah, definitely Neatoman. No good person could ever hate Vernon Fenwick, Ace Reporter!

[CyberCubed]

I liked the 2012 versions, I don't think they were overused. They appeared every so often toward the second half of the show and it's not like Rahzar/Fishface weren't getting redundant/beaten up all the time anyway. We just would have had more repetitive Rahzar/Fishface fights if say Bebop/Rocksteady were never introduced in the show.

[Andrew NDB]

In any universe where we're to take the "Ninja" part of TMNT remotely serious, they can't exist. Or exist for very long.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

I might be crazy, but does anyone else remember Tristan Jones revealing a pitch he was working on where he was going to have a rhino and warthog get mutated at the zoo or something? I remember him saying they would just be mindless beasts the turtles had to deal with. I’ll see if I can dig this up.

I remember him saying something about just Bebop (not Rocksteady) showing up. Somehow. I don't remember now really. Some kind of multiversal something. This might be a separate attempt by him entirely but it was vetoed.

[Heyowakka]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

In any universe where we're to take the "Ninja" part of TMNT remotely serious, they can't exist. Or exist for very long.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I remember him saying something about just Bebop (not Rocksteady) showing up. Somehow. I don't remember now really. Some kind of multiversal something. This might be a separate attempt by him entirely but it was vetoed.

Bumped it in another thread, but here it is for the sake of this thread’s discussion:

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

Sorry if I'm digging up an old thread, but just to clarify, what I wanted to do with B & R isn't quite what people are getting at here. Here's what I pitched. Pete dug it, but still, I don't think the idea of the two appearing in the Mirage comics appealed. Which is fair enough... read on. The idea was that it would be a con exclusive or a special one-shot specifically for the anniversary... an optional-canonical comic.

We open in another dimension (Caption: NOT Dimension X…), where the two massive brutes are being pursued by authorities in an intense car/other-dimensional-vehicle chase! Suddenly, a vortex starts opening in midair just ahead of them…

Cut to our world, where a Foot Mystic and a band of renegade Foot ninjas are trying to open up a portal to the Netherworld (to summon a demon to help them against the Turtles). Unfortunately, the mystic has misinterpreted one of the symbols in the spell used to open the portal correctly. A portal opens, but when the vehicle Bebop and Rocksteady had hi-jacked comes thundering out and pastes the mystic, it becomes very clear that it’s not the right one!

The rest of the Foot renegades scatter and Bebop and Rocksteady check out this strange new world they’ve stumbled into. They are massive too, at least twice the size of Leatherhead. A registered, costumed superhero flies down to try and stop the duo, but they pulverize him (in a comically brutal way, not to death, but there’s no way a normal human would be able to take it).

Cut to the Turtles’ lair, where Raph, Don and Mike are watching late night television (Leo is reading something). A sudden live news broadcast interrupts and reveals that Bebop and Rocksteady are tearing up midtown as police try and take them down.

After getting a call from April (who’s been caught in the midst of the carnage), they spring into action (they would be disguised somehow, either in gear similar to #36, or civilian clothing – long coats, etc.).

They pluck April out of the danger zone and get her to safety without being noticed, everyone seems too freaked out by the massive duo to care.
Mike notices that Karai and a band of her best warriors are on a nearby rooftop. They join her to try and find out what’s going on, and Karai reveals that a rogue mystic had recently stolen a tome from their archives containing spells/rituals that could supposedly open pathways to parallel dimensions. However, without the book they have no idea what spell/ritual was used, or how to send the two creatures back to where they came from. Don and Karai discuss their options and agree to try and come up with something together, but it means that Mike, Leo and Raph, along with the Foot warriors, will have to try and keep the dimension-hopping duo occupied.

As Mike, Leo and Raph fight Rocksteady and Bebop (taking a number of jabs at the old cartoon along the way), Karai and Don manage to put together a trans-dimensional portal using Leatherhead’s makeshift transmat device and various other bits and pieces Don has accumulated over the years. By channelling the mystic energies of a similar spell through the device, they are able to open a wormhole to another dimension (though not necessarily the one they came from).

The group lures Rocksteady and Bebop to the area above Leatherhead’s old lair (where the portal will open), but the two brutes realise they’re being herded towards a trap and start playing dirty. Don and Karai can only keep the portal open for a small amount of time, and with the brutes wise to the trap, the portal overloads the device that opened it.

At a loss for what to do, Mike suggests they call Renet, but none have any idea how to do that – considering she’s just appeared every time they’ve needed her. However, true to form, she does appear, having sensed a disturbingly large tremor in the space-time continuum. The guys fill her in, and Renet floats up towards Bebop and Rocksteady. She begins channelling her energies, chanting (similar to good ol’ Doctor Strange), but suddenly – WHAM! One of the monsters punches her into a building, sending the sceptre scattering off into an alley.

Don rushes to her aide while Raph, Leo, Mike and the Foot launch another assault on the pair. When it looks as though all is lost, Splinter suddenly arrives on the scene, standing quietly between the battle-weary warriors and the battle-ready monsters. The Turtles freak out, thinking Splinter has finally gone insane, and Bebop and Rocksteady find the situation hilarious. But Splinter has Renet’s sceptre!

Splinter mumbles something and suddenly the two are sucked into the sceptre itself!

With the city saved, Don returns with Renet. Karai tells them that she will help provide the funds to repair the damages caused in the chaos. (If you like the alternate ending, Mike could ask where Splinter sent them).

The turtles return home with their master, exhausted.

ALTERNATE ENDING (one final jab at the old cartoon):
We cut to find that Rocksteady and Bebop have been transported to a dusty, arid dimension, somewhat similar to the surface of Mars. They have been secured by hi-tech restraints and are being marched towards a gigantic construct by hulking soldiers who look similar to The Thing. They stop at the base of the construct, just in front of what appears to be large boarding ramp. “New prisoners for you my lord! We found them inside the forbidden zone.”
Bebop and Rocksteady look up, and we see a grotesquely obese Utrom, sitting in the torso cavity of a massive exosuit (think Obediah Stane’s “Iron Monger” suit compared to Tony Stark’s Iron Man suit). The Utrom grins: “Excellent!”

We zoom out for the final panel, revealing that the construct is disturbingly similar to a certain subterranean construct made famous by the old TMNT cartoons..


The End.


END NOTES: I thought it might be funny if the Mirage U Superheroes tried to fight the two, but would just get flicked away like annoying bugs, the only reason the Turtles manage to get their full attention is because Raph or Mike manages to throw either a sai, or a makeshift explosive up Rocksteady’s nose, pissing him off to no end.

The other thing I thought would be to not have any of Rocksteady and Bebop’s language be English, or even remotely recognisable. It would be alien gibberish, but we would be able to ascertain what they’re saying through visuals.

Finally, Rocksteady and Bebop’s names would never be uttered either, except in their native tongues (which we wouldn’t be able to read anyway).

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Heyowakka

No good person could ever hate Vernon Fenwick, Ace Reporter!

I didn't say I hate him, I just said him never getting the chance to reappear after a single issue (and really more like a single page) simply made him the best version of the character by default.

[TylerD]

Originally Posted by Heyowakka

Not me, but only because they make you so angry. I like Bebop and Rocksteady, I think they’re funny.

Agreed. They added great comedic value to the show and comics. Have always like them. Bebop and Rocksteady Destroy Everything is a fun read

[CyberCubed]

I think Bebop and Rocksteady is also good autistic representation in TMNT. Back in the 80's and 90's people just thought Bebop/Rocksteady were "stupid" or "dumb" because we didn't have "labels" back then.

Nowadays people would assume Bebop and Rocksteady were on the autistic spectrum. And to any autistic people here reading this, we all know it's a wide spectrum that can cover all bases, so I'm not saying anyone who has it is like Bebop/Rocksteady.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by neatoman

And completely pointless, the show already had a bunch of mutant henchmen for Shredder, though I can't tell if it happened because Playmates wanted more action figures, if Paramount demanded they should be there after a while or if the writers genuinely wanted them there. The show did however take a longass time to produce new episodes, so I doubt they ever had any time to base their newfound prominence on audience engagement, in turn I'm just going to assume they stole so much time from the established characters because someone made a pre-emptive decision and just assumed the audience would react well to them. Kinda like how Tiger Claw ended up being like a reverse Boba Fett in terms of popularity, but least the false impression that Bebop and Rocksteady ever actually mattered because the FW cartoon kept using them is a thing, so the decision makes a bit more sense than "please love out super-duper-mega-cool-awesome-tiger-OC".

Yeah, Dogpound and Fishface didn't really get a fair shake. It felt like the writers got bored with them.

B&R were probably a Nickelodeon mandate. Seems pretty clear when you consider the season they were mutated overlapped with the release of that dumb ass movie and they were doing a bunch of other cross-promotion with them (the Carmelo Anthony comic book special, Bebop and Rocksteady Destroy Everything, probably some other stuff I'm forgetting).

Well, MM is the movie where they're just kinda there and blend in with the other pointless characters and probably wouldn't leave any sort of impression on any kids whose first exposure to TMNT would be that movie. If the reason Bebop and Rocksteady keep getting artificially propped up no matter how irrelevant they are in general wasn't a factor, I wouldn't be surprised if they were just forgotten about in the sequel, they were basically almost forgotten about in the cartoon (didn't even get actual dialogue).

OotS essentially has them be the main characters for no reason despite being written in a super annoying way... And get a dick joke... Their entire role in that makes me wonder why the writers, director, producers and actors never stopped and thought "Maybe these characters are terrible and we ought to change them?".

So... OotS?

That is correct. Good work.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I didn't say I hate him, I just said him never getting the chance to reappear after a single issue (and really more like a single page) simply made him the best version of the character by default.

Vernon Prinole > Vernon Fenwick.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I think Bebop and Rocksteady is also good autistic representation in TMNT. Back in the 80's and 90's people just thought Bebop/Rocksteady were "stupid" or "dumb" because we didn't have "labels" back then.

Nowadays people would assume Bebop and Rocksteady were on the autistic spectrum. And to any autistic people here reading this, we all know it's a wide spectrum that can cover all bases, so I'm not saying anyone who has it is like Bebop/Rocksteady.

What are their special interests?

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Yeah I think you either love the show or hate it. It is what it is and they’re a part of the cast. I still love the show obviously, and they have plenty of funny moments. I guess I do resent the fact that subsequent versions have felt the need to include them just because.

I was thinking about this and it’s kind of surprising that you don’t see more casuals disliking Bebop and Rocksteady. If only for their overuse.

For example, I’m a casual Pokemon fan and I buckled down and watched every Indigo league/Orange Island episode a couple years ago. It was a pretty tough grind, and I blame most of that on the fact that EVERY damn episode had to have Jesse and James up to the same stupid bullshid.

They’re fun characters, especially with Meowth in the mix, but god damn the writers really spammed the hell out of them.

[CyberCubed]

It's probably due to the fact that they're not in every single episode (due to Shredder/Krang aren't), and it's basically known to be a kids show with bumbling henchmen.

I mean it's either that or Shredder/Krang create new mutants in every episode, which could have theoretically happened if the show was written differently and Shredder got two new mutant henchmen every couple of episodes.

[TylerD]

Originally Posted by Heyowakka

Not me, but only because they make you so angry. I like Bebop and Rocksteady, I think they’re funny.

Agreed. I like them too, and yes they are stupid and add comedic relief. You could definitely make them a bit more serious if you did a more intense dark TMNT movie. They were some of my fave scenes in the 87 classic.