Splinter has Nobody

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

I don't think he's bothered by it. After all, everyone does it. Splinter, Leo, Raph, Don, even that Tribunal member.

Mikey is also a cartoon. It's just the idea that Splinter is almost as close as the ideal mentor/parental guardian/etc that has been conjured up. The act of him whacking Mikey all the time seems a bit out of the character compared to what I am used to.

It's actually funny when one of the brothers do it, but it just seems so wrong when Splinter does it. It's funny when he throws a phone book to get Mikey's attention, but it's not so funny when Splinter canes him in the head for being annoying. That in itself is kind of annoying as a viewer.

Besides, with The Battle Nexus aside, when is Mikey gonna get a chance to shine? He's always getting his thunder stolen from Leo, Raph or Don.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Besides, with The Battle Nexus aside, when is Mikey gonna get a chance to shine? He's always getting his thunder stolen from Leo, Raph or Don.

Well, he did end up getting two statues erected in his honor in two different dimensions, not to mention a trophy & medal for the battle Nexus, which after Grudge Match he had by every means rightfully earned. Truth to tell, he's really the only turtle that's received any visible awards for his efforts in fighting. Who knows, maybe he is annoyed by everybody whapping him, and uses his gloating about the Battle Nexus as a form of retaliation & a way to keep his own spirit up.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Mikey is also a cartoon. It's just the idea that Splinter is almost as close as the ideal mentor/parental guardian/etc that has been conjured up. The act of him whacking Mikey all the time seems a bit out of the character compared to what I am used to.

It's actually funny when one of the brothers do it, but it just seems so wrong when Splinter does it. It's funny when he throws a phone book to get Mikey's attention, but it's not so funny when Splinter canes him in the head for being annoying. That in itself is kind of annoying as a viewer.

Besides, with The Battle Nexus aside, when is Mikey gonna get a chance to shine? He's always getting his thunder stolen from Leo, Raph or Don.

Thats ridiculous, Splinter deserves the same rights as the other characters to whap Mikey upside the head. Besides, it's not like he does it visciously, it's just a whap on the head, nothing more.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by aabxx

But the other points you made about Splinter I can agree more with. Splinter is not a saint, and he has his faults. I mean come on, he didn't HAVE to put his sons through countless hours of hard (and dangerous) training to become lethal shadow warriors. So why did he? I do believe revenge was the main motivation, although that might've changed over the years when he grew wiser. I mean, he started off as a rat... probably, as a rat, he did not know much about concepts such as ethics and honor and how to raise children (and why), and the only thoughts he might've had were those of revenging his master. Therefore, he could have adopted the turtles not out of kindness (to protect, raise and teach), but more so to use them as his tools of revenge?

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I was trying to make about Splinter. The very fact that he trained the boys as ninjas is a bit weird. I truelly believe that his main motivation when he first took them in was revenge, and not all together out of the kindness of his heart. He had ulterior motives I'm pretty sure. He was going to be their sensei and they where going to be his ninjas and avenge Yoshi's death. But I think very quickly he came to love them as his own children, like any one would when you are essentially raising young innocent (and might I add adorable) children. Hence why he is so concerned about there well being.

And as to his use of physical disiplign? I am all for it. The turtles have a tendacy to be head strong and willful, and I'm sorry lectures and extra chores as punishment wouldn't leave the impression he probably wants to make. The turtles acting out can have serious consequences and lead to them eighter being discovered or killed, so I have no problem with Splinter canning them in the head when they act reckless or disobey. He needs to get the message through some how and a good whap upside the head with a blunt object would probably make a more lasting impression on them than being confined to their rooms and having their TV privliges taken away.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I was trying to make about Splinter. The very fact that he trained the boys as ninjas is a bit weird. I truelly believe that his main motivation when he first took them in was revenge, and not all together out of the kindness of his heart. He had ulterior motives I'm pretty sure. He was going to be their sensei and they where going to be his ninjas and avenge Yoshi's death. But I think very quickly he came to love them as his own children, like any one would when you are essentially raising young innocent (and might I add adorable) children. Hence why he is so concerned about there well being.

And as to his use of physical disiplign? I am all for it. The turtles have a tendacy to be head strong and willful, and I'm sorry lectures and extra chores as punishment wouldn't leave the impression he probably wants to make. The turtles acting out can have serious consequences and lead to them eighter being discovered or killed, so I have no problem with Splinter canning them in the head when they act reckless or disobey. He needs to get the message through some how and a good whap upside the head with a blunt object would probably make a more lasting impression on them than being confined to their rooms and having their TV privliges taken away.

I agree with your statment here, in that Splinter does have to use extra measures to keep they guys in line, just because of the nature in which Splinter is raising them.

But I'm curious about this. In season 4 of the new TMNT, Leonardo and SPlinter are practicing, and arguing at the same time. Leo was agitated, and lost his temper and literally kicked Splinter's ass and cut him across the head, despite Splinter telling Leo that he was not himself. After that, Splinter sends him off to train with the Ancient One.

But heaven forbid if Mikey says something annoying or slap stick. Whack on the head for him.

[Sage Ninja]

In season 4 of the new TMNT, Leonardo and SPlinter are practicing, and arguing at the same time. Leo was agitated, and lost his temper and literally kicked Splinter's ass and cut him across the head, despite Splinter telling Leo that he was not himself. After that, Splinter sends him off to train with the Ancient One.

But heaven forbid if Mikey says something annoying or slap stick. Whack on the head for him.

completely diffrent situations that can't be compared. Leonardo was in a state of mental and emotinal unrest and Splinter knew this that is why he was handleing the situation in a diffrent manner. Also this may be up for debate but I think Splinter let Leo hack at him so he could shock Leo out of his attitude. And it worked. Splinter is very shrewd and handles his sons problems in diffrent ways. And that was the best way to handle it.

Splinter may have his faults but he doesn't show favortism toward Leonardo over the other turtles he treats them all fairly for the most part. Had it been Mikey in a similar sitaution I doubt he would have canned him in the head. Besides Mikey mostly gets canned because he is eighther acting silly or acting out, so i have no problem with him smacking him in the head. I do, however, have a problem with his brother whapping him.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Also this may be up for debate but I think Splinter let Leo hack at him so he could shock Leo out of his attitude. And it worked.

You know, I think you may be right, I think that's exactly what Splinter did.

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Splinter is very shrewd and handles his sons problems in diffrent ways. And that was the best way to handle it.Splinter may have his faults but he doesn't show favortism toward Leonardo over the other turtles he treats them all fairly for the most part. Had it been Mikey in a similar sitaution I doubt he would have canned him in the head.

This is true, any good father does not pick favorites among his sons. And the way he deals with his sons' problems doesn't depend on which son it is, but what type of problem it is.
P.S. What if one day they do decide to put Michaelangelo in the same position as Leonardo was here? It's unlikely, but I think it'd be extremely interesting.

[Warhorse]

This thread is funny. It started out as why Splinter doesn't have a significant other, to debating about his handling of certain situations.

I just hope one day there is a time when Mikey says something slick, and ducks or gets the upperhand of whoever attempts to try and correct his tongue.
I just saw Time Trevails, where the girl with the time sector drops in on the Turtles and wisks them away to an alternate demension. Mikey starts to go on a ramble on how they were just minding their own business, not bothering anyone when the sh!t happens to them, and why all the bad crap has to always happen to them. After he let all his frustrations out, Raph comes to him and asks "Are you finnished?" instead of clobering Mikey. Now that scene wasn't bad and was funny at the same time. To me anyways.

[Sage Ninja]

This is true, any good father does not pick favorites among his sons.

exactly. That is what I was trying to get across with my above statement about Splinter. And despite what a lot of fans may think I don't feel Splinter shows Leonardo special attention or gives him better treatment. I think that with Splinter and leo, they just have a common intrest that makes them close to one another. In fact in some ways I think Splinter is a bit more heavy handed with Leo because he shows the most asperations to ninjitsu training than the others.

he deals with his sons' problems doesn't depend on which son it is, but what type of problem it is.

I disagree with this. I think what son that has the problem affects how Splinter handles them. You have to remember that the turtles are indivduals and have different personalities and temperments. So I think Splinter would handle one of the turtles very differently from another even if they had the same problem. Actually I think each turtle would react diffrently to the same problem. For instance I doubt very much had, Donatello been in the same emotional state as Leonardo, that he would have goaded him into a fight and gotten him to explode like that. In fact Donatello may not have even turned all feral like Leonardo had in same situation. So I believe Splinter would use a diffrent approach. And you notice he used several with Leo before going to the extreme. First he tried talking to him, then getting Usagi to talk sence into him, and then a more agressive approach. You really have to give Splinter props for is resourcefulness...although I may be reading to much into the whole "sword hacking incident" than I should.

P.S. What if one day they do decide to put Michaelangelo in the same position as Leonardo was here? It's unlikely, but I think it'd be extremely interesting.

eh? I'm not sure I know what you are asking on this one. Can you eleborate a bit more on this question triplexxx?

Warhorse, I'll get to responding to your post later because I have a few things to say about it. But I gotta go now.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

eh? I'm not sure I know what you are asking on this one. Can you eleborate a bit more on this question triplexxx?

What I meant was: What would it be like if they put Michaelangelo in an angst-fest like Leonardo was in the first half of Season 4?

[Masked Ninja]

That would be interesting... wonder how they'd get him in such a position, though. I don't think Mikey would crack until he'd lost someone dear to him. Like if Bad Day were real, and he'd lost Klunk... or certainly a brother he felt he'd had the power to save...

The think with Mikey is, his personality doesn't make for "angst-fest" the way Leonardo's does. Something seriously bad would have to happen to break his spirit - think SAINW. That could arguably be an "angsty" Mikey... at least one who's lost all hope.

As to the original thread topic... I do have to say that everytime I see the thread title, I think of Splinter holding hands with Nobody... and then I have to spend several minutes getting that image OUT.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

exactly.
I disagree with this. I think what son that has the problem affects how Splinter handles them. You have to remember that the turtles are indivduals and have different personalities and temperments. So I think Splinter would handle one of the turtles very differently from another even if they had the same problem. Actually I think each turtle would react diffrently to the same problem. For instance I doubt very much had, Donatello been in the same emotional state as Leonardo, that he would have goaded him into a fight and gotten him to explode like that. In fact Donatello may not have even turned all feral like Leonardo had in same situation. So I believe Splinter would use a diffrent approach. And you notice he used several with Leo before going to the extreme. First he tried talking to him, then getting Usagi to talk sence into him, and then a more agressive approach. You really have to give Splinter props for is resourcefulness...although I may be reading to much into the whole "sword hacking incident" than I should.


Warhorse, I'll get to responding to your post later because I have a few things to say about it. But I gotta go now.

I agree with your assessment on how Splinter would deal with each Turtle in each situation. You would also think if a Turtle like Mikey all of a sudden started to brood and get angry, it would hopefully ba cause of great concern throughout the whole family.

Also, your mentioning on getting back to me. I swear, I am not trying to start trouble. I just like Mikey, and wish the shows would give him some more integrity, or whatever.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

I disagree with this. I think what son that has the problem affects how Splinter handles them. You have to remember that the turtles are indivduals and have different personalities and temperments. So I think Splinter would handle one of the turtles very differently from another even if they had the same problem. So I believe Splinter would use a diffrent approach. And you notice he used several with Leo before going to the extreme. First he tried talking to him, then getting Usagi to talk sence into him, and then a more agressive approach. You really have to give Splinter props for is resourcefulness...

I understand I didn't take the concept of personality into account and that it can affect the proper way a problem should be dealt with.
However, like you did say: "Splinter is resourceful"--and because of this, I do think Splinter, when dealing with any son with any problem, he will usually start by talking to them, and before resorting to more drastic measures; after all, when dealing with a child's problem, a parent should always consider "talking" to be their first option, especially with emotional problems.
I believe that with certain types of problems he will deal with each of his sons differently, and with other types of problems he won't.

[Sage Ninja]

sorry folks this may get long

I just hope one day there is a time when Mikey says something slick, and ducks or gets the upperhand of whoever attempts to try and correct his tongue.

There have been times when Mikey has gotten the upper hand and ducked out of the way of some one trying to "correct his tongue" . It is not often but it does happen. And like I have said before Splinter only really uses his cane on him when he gets to silly or out of line. I do however have a bit of a problem with Don, Leo, or Raph smacking him up side the head on ocassion. I mean most of the time he deseves it but there are a few times where (as the viewer) I get a bit irritated when I see one of his brothers smack him up side the head.

Its not so much for the action but the fact that Mikey just lets it happen, and doesn't do anything about it. It kind of puts Mikey in a position of submission and I don't like that to much. And its not just the smacking thing, sometimes I just plain don't like how the other turtles talk down to Mikey and he doesn't say anything back. One of the biggest things that one of the turtles said to Mikey that really bugged me was in the episode "Adventures in turtle Sitting" when, after Mikey made some joke about Don throwing up in the van, Raph smacks Mikey and says: "Quite Mikey. The adults are talkinging". I mean it was funny and all but for some reason I thought the comment was a bit on the degrading side and it annoyed me that, 1) it was said, and 2) Mikey didn't say something back. But that could just be my personal bias talking since I like Michaelangelo and don't want to see him as a wimp or talked down too.

(...) I swear, I am not trying to start trouble. I just like Mikey, and wish the shows would give him some more integrity, or whatever

I don't know why you think your comment would cause trouble . But I would like to say that his does have integrity, I think he has a lot of good character grases. But I think i know what you mean in that i wish they would give him a little more depth and stop making him out to be this stero-type that the franchise has put him under. As the mere comic relif.

That would be interesting... wonder how they'd get him in such a position, though. I don't think Mikey would crack until he'd lost someone dear to him. Like if Bad Day were real, and he'd lost Klunk... or certainly a brother he felt he'd had the power to save...

The think with Mikey is, his personality doesn't make for "angst-fest" the way Leonardo's does. Something seriously bad would have to happen to break his spirit - think SAINW. That could arguably be an "angsty" Mikey... at least one who's lost all hope.

actually i think giveing the fact that Mikey (and Don) are such laid back amiable characters that don't have brooding natures, would offer a much stronger impact if they where ever put in postition where they where all angry and angynsting. Just because they are so peaceful and mild mannered. However, like I said above, I think each turtle would react in a diffrent way to the same sever sitautions. But in Don's case I think he would go all angry only if he was in position where he was made helpless to help some one he loved. In Mikey's case...i think Mikey has such a strong support group from his family that he would not have to go all angry and mean. I think with Mikey the only thing that would shake his spirit is if he felt his support group that is his family where suddenly not there for him. I'm thinking betrayal is the only thing that could send over the edge.

**sigh** triplexxx I swear i'll get to you because your post because i have things to say about it, but right now I'm forced off the computer by a teacher.

I'll be back

[Masked Ninja]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

actually i think giveing the fact that Mikey (and Don) are such laid back amiable characters that don't have brooding natures, would offer a much stronger impact if they where ever put in postition where they where all angry and angynsting.

Exactly. It's part of why SAINW was so emotionally awesome. I mean yeah, you have the rather depressing ending... but what really made me go WOW was right when Mikey shows up, you realize it's him, and he says his first line. Great work on the part of the writers (and special props to the VA for the voice change) for that one.

Hmm... betrayal. Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, I think that Mikey goes ahead and blows off the headsmacks and seemingly degrading comments because he knows they're just in jest and he prefers not to sweat the small stuff. (and Raph's "adults are talking" line makes me giggle every time, haha) But I can see him and Raph getting into a fight where Raph sounds just a little too sincere in his insults, and Mikey refusing to talk to him for several days. Now, a full betrayal as opposed to a fight... you're right. I bet it would completely destroy him.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

sorry folks this may get long



There have been times when Mikey has gotten the upper hand and ducked out of the way of some one trying to "correct his tongue" . It is not often but it does happen. And like I have said before Splinter only really uses his cane on him when he gets to silly or out of line. I do however have a bit of a problem with Don, Leo, or Raph smacking him up side the head on ocassion. I mean most of the time he deseves it but there are a few times where (as the viewer) I get a bit irritated when I see one of his brothers smack him up side the head.

Its not so much for the action but the fact that Mikey just lets it happen, and doesn't do anything about it. It kind of puts Mikey in a position of submission and I don't like that to much. And its not just the smacking thing, sometimes I just plain don't like how the other turtles talk down to Mikey and he doesn't say anything back. One of the biggest things that one of the turtles said to Mikey that really bugged me was in the episode "Adventures in turtle Sitting" when, after Mikey made some joke about Don throwing up in the van, Raph smacks Mikey and says: "Quite Mikey. The adults are talkinging". I mean it was funny and all but for some reason I thought the comment was a bit on the degrading side and it annoyed me that, 1) it was said, and 2) Mikey didn't say something back. But that could just be my personal bias talking since I like Michaelangelo and don't want to see him as a wimp or talked down too.



I don't know why you think your comment would cause trouble . But I would like to say that his does have integrity, I think he has a lot of good character grases. But I think i know what you mean in that i wish they would give him a little more depth and stop making him out to be this stero-type that the franchise has put him under. As the mere comic relif.

You pretty much summed it up on my feelings towards the way Mikey is treated. While certain situations are funny, I agree in that Mikey is portrayed way to submissive.

From my take on things, Donetello is pretty much the most laid back of the four. But even he isn't gonna take crap from no one, so that leaves poor Mikey to get the blunt of the blows.

But kudos to Mikey, in his ability to get the worst out of Raph at times! He used Raph's temper to his advantage, showing he does have tactical.

[iris]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

There have been times when Mikey has gotten the upper hand and ducked out of the way of some one trying to "correct his tongue" . It is not often but it does happen. And like I have said before Splinter only really uses his cane on him when he gets to silly or out of line. I do however have a bit of a problem with Don, Leo, or Raph smacking him up side the head on ocassion. I mean most of the time he deseves it but there are a few times where (as the viewer) I get a bit irritated when I see one of his brothers smack him up side the head.

Its not so much for the action but the fact that Mikey just lets it happen, and doesn't do anything about it. It kind of puts Mikey in a position of submission and I don't like that to much. And its not just the smacking thing, sometimes I just plain don't like how the other turtles talk down to Mikey and he doesn't say anything back. One of the biggest things that one of the turtles said to Mikey that really bugged me was in the episode "Adventures in turtle Sitting" when, after Mikey made some joke about Don throwing up in the van, Raph smacks Mikey and says: "Quite Mikey. The adults are talkinging". I mean it was funny and all but for some reason I thought the comment was a bit on the degrading side and it annoyed me that, 1) it was said, and 2) Mikey didn't say something back. But that could just be my personal bias talking since I like Michaelangelo and don't want to see him as a wimp or talked down too.

One of the things I love about the 2K3 series is that it has a very realistic fraternal dynamic between the guys. It's almost as if some of the writers are drawing on their own experiences with older and younger brothers. Mikey definitely acts as the younger brother, and even though he's not REALLY that much younger, it's a role he takes on himself by being silly and making it his responsibility to ease the circumstantial tension.

Most of the time, when Mike says something irritatingly juvenile, he knows it, and he expects the reaction he gets. He's baiting. But because he does that so often, a bit like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, sometimes he'll get smacked when he's just making an ordinary joke, or when his brother just disagrees with him. I remember one scene (Still Nobody?) where Raph smacked Mike, and then Don copied the smack, and Mikey looked totally peeved while Don smiled obliviously.

Now, I'm not defending Raph's smack habit, but the truth is this is something that often happens between siblings. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me... because although it's not pleasant and it's probably not something you want to show kids all the time (hah), it's an element that helps ground the story. Warhorse's example of Raph saying "Are you done yet?" is another fine example of that. I just think it's very cool.

And I know this is totally off topic, sorry.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by iris

One of the things I love about the 2K3 series is that it has a very realistic fraternal dynamic between the guys. It's almost as if some of the writers are drawing on their own experiences with older and younger brothers. Mikey definitely acts as the younger brother, and even though he's not REALLY that much younger, it's a role he takes on himself by being silly and making it his responsibility to ease the circumstantial tension.

I must admit, I've never really been much of a fan of the turtles' sibling rivalry, but I've taught myself to look at it in a positive way: it means that they're very close with one another. Now I have a brother, and over the last few years we've had close to zero fights and arguments; however, at the same time, we've hardly spoken to one another because our lives are on completely separate planes. The turtles' sibling rivalry shows that they care about one another and about what happens in each other's lives.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

I understand I didn't take the concept of personality into account and that it can affect the proper way a problem should be dealt with.
However, like you did say: "Splinter is resourceful"--and because of this, I do think Splinter, when dealing with any son with any problem, he will usually start by talking to them, and before resorting to more drastic measures; after all, when dealing with a child's problem, a parent should always consider "talking" to be their first option, especially with emotional problems.
I believe that with certain types of problems he will deal with each of his sons differently, and with other types of problems he won't.

I believe that Splinter is a strict adherant to "you learn to make your own mistakes" and "tough love". What I like about Splinter's parenting methods is that he doesn't cuddle the turtles at all. When they screw up he lets them know it and often times lets them deal with the consequences of their actions. Like for instance when Leonardo was getting a little full of himself in one episode about having the best weapon out of the four turtles; Splinter didn't let that slide and quickly put him in his place. By basically embarrasing him in front of the other turtles by disarming him with his staff. Now I'm not sure embarrasing some one is the right the way to go about teaching some one a lesson (actually, personly I think it only worsens the problem) but Leonardo's case Splinter needed to make his point known that the weapon doesn't make the warrior.

by back later, I have moire to say. I'm getting kicked off again

[Warhorse]

That's true about the embarrasing the student in front of their peers to bring them back to earth method. Works pretty good for both humans and animals when they are learning. (I train horses and teach riding lessons, so I know a thing or two about psycholagical techniques)