Splinter has Nobody

[Rooish]

Ahhhhhh lots to reply to! Or rather, I think I pissed off a bunch of people when I called Splinter's stick use "abusive," so I'd better reply. But I actually do think it was abusive, since I perceived him as hitting Mikey hard with the thing. I think Splinter has some very great qualities, but I do find him morally inconsistent. I appreciate, however, the difficulty of his job... raising and training four boys without a break, since they were never allowed to go out anywhere (being mutants), and who are now blossoming into independent, quasi-rebellious adolescents. Even Leo rebels in "The Shredder Strikes."

I respect Splinter's laissez-faire attitude... letting his sons figure out for themselves what they did wrong. But when he does step in... say, to curb an ongoing difficult behaviour like Mikey's... I wish he'd seriously try to help his son through it, instead of punishing him on a case-by-case basis. But I do think he handled the "Grudge Match" situation pretty well... he did try to lecture Mikey, but then he decided to pointedly leave Mikey to learn his own lesson when the lecture didn't work. He didn't even hit him!

mik8la, I think that Raph's and Leo's rivalry is present more in the comics, although it did show up in "Tales of Leo." I agree that Mikey is the most typical teenager. I think he balances the team out well. I guess I just don't like it when he's actively annoying people, no matter how typical teenager that is, but I should get used to it because it adds to the show's realism. I agree with terran631 that he baits Raph, and Splinter to some extent. But I think it's really unfortunate that that's the only way he can get attention or appreciation. I think he was driven to brag so much about the Battle Nexus win (the first one) because he was insecure and needed to desperately defend his win. He knew he had won due to three separate occasions of getting off easy. Splinter let him win, Raph lost just because he got to frustrated and smashed into a wall, and Kluh lost because Mikey accidentally hit him in the head with a nunchaku when the fight wasn't even happening. He knew that he didn't deserve to win, so he overcompensated by boasting. This just shows what crappy self-esteem the poor guy has.

As for "The Shredder Strikes" episode, yes terran631, that is what happened after the Turtles left. But during the conversation with the Turtles before, triplexxx is right that the Turtles set off to confront the Shredder, and announced this in front of Splinter, and he didn't say a thing... although earlier in the conversation he had asked them, sadly, not to get involved. But he saw them leave, and didn't stop them. This is what I mean about him being inconsistent.

Finally, Sage Ninja, you're right; Mikey's acting out is not a product of being "abused." I didn't think before I wrote that. He acts out because, as you said, he has low confidence because the other three are in some way better or more noticeable. I don't think Splinter slapping him helps the situation, though. By just punishing, Splinter does not addressing Mikey's low self-esteem, or help Mikey to build it up before Mikey has to resort to boasting and teasing Raph.

[terran631]

I think this may be a case of agree to disagree, Rooish. It's all in perception. Because I don't perceive Mike as having low self esteem. It has been written in Official RPG books that as far as speed, agility and all around athleticism, Mike has all three brothers beat hands down. It's been theorized that Mike's acting out is only the result of a talented young man (who could probably be the best ninja) a little bored in training. He does not train nearly as hard as his brothers, yet he is pretty much on even footing with them. That shows something about his sheer talent.

I just viewed his boasting as just another way to get on his brothers' nerves because it's what he likes to do. (call it a hobby ). He doesn't do it just because that's the only way he can get attention, but because he revels in the REaction he gets. I do however think that his family underestimates him and that could be another reason for his bragging. But I still don't think he has low self-esteem.

As for the Shredder Strike's episode. I suppose that is the problem with television shows. No one knows what Splinter said to them or didn't say to them. I got the impression that he told them not to go, went to meditate on the issue and they just went anyway. For him to discipline them for nothing is not just inconsistent, it's wildly out of character. I just don't think that was the case. I am going to have to find that episode somewhere. But as I said, agree to disagree.

[Rooish]

Agreeing to disagree seems good to me. Besides, your argument seemed very reasonable and either interpretation is possible. It seems to me that he has low self-esteem, but his fighting talent is shown gloriously in "Grudge Match." None of the Turtles have ever looked so agile.

And I have found the episode on YouTube in the past.

[mik8la]

I agree that it's all in our perceptions, because I still can't see the "abusive" angle there.

But I actually do think it was abusive, since I perceived him as hitting Mikey hard with the thing.

Well...if it was that hard, then I think Mikey would've reacted a lot more strongly than a simple "Ow"--he can be a bit of a drama queen. Raph hits him as well, but I guess it comes off less "abusive" because he doesn't hit with a stick. And Mikey's fast enough to duck those hits if he wanted to--he does that more than once with Raph.

Also, Mikey doesn't seem to be emanating any "low self-esteem" vibes to me. His boasting seems to stem more from the fact that he is genuinely proud of his accomplishments--heck, if I beat my supposedly more-skilled brother in combat I'd be ecstatic. I know that some people will disagree with me, but I think Mikey won the match with Raph fair and square. Fighting isn't all about how many times you can land a blow on someone; it's also about strategy, which Mikey demonstrated admirably here. It wasn't cheating as much as it was exploiting an opponent's weakness, and showed that Mikey did pay attention to Splinter's lessons. It was wrong of him to continually rub his win in his siblings' faces, but I've seen that happen with my guy friends when one of them wins in our online XBox deathmatches.

The thing that Terran631 said about Mikey being addicted to getting a rise out of his family makes sense to me; that might explain why he continually picks on Raph. I've seen Mikey take potshots at Leo and Don, but they brush it off like it's nothing. Raph, on the other hand, is a lot more likely to rise to the bait, so that's who Mikey focuses on.

But like you said, let's all agree to disagree.

[Rooish]

Okay. Heh, maybe I was being a little harsh there anyway... if there weren't debates, this wouldn't be a discussion board, right?

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Okay. Heh, maybe I was being a little harsh there anyway... if there weren't debates, this wouldn't be a discussion board, right?

Right!

And Splinter has done a bang up job with guys! (Oops, did I just say that?) Hehe, sorry.

Well, in the end, they are alright for the most part. Yeah, Leo is a little obsessive in his training, and yeah, Donnie is like really into his gadgets and what not, and well Mikey, looks to be thinking he's 12 forever, but that's ok. ANd oh yeah, Raph sometimes hints he may be best in the mental institute or something. But again, all in all, the boys turned out no worse or better than any of your other dysfunctional families!

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Right!

And Splinter has done a bang up job with guys! (Oops, did I just say that?) Hehe, sorry.

Well, in the end, they are alright for the most part. Yeah, Leo is a little obsessive in his training, and yeah, Donnie is like really into his gadgets and what not, and well Mikey, looks to be thinking he's 12 forever, but that's ok. ANd oh yeah, Raph sometimes hints he may be best in the mental institute or something. But again, all in all, the boys turned out no worse or better than any of your other dysfunctional families!

Oh my goodness Warhorse, you just made my day. Now I can go to sleep with a light heart.

[Buslady]

I've wondered if Splinter's so wonderful, why is Raph (or was in some versions) such an angry person? Splinters brainwashing of the evilness of humans, dont go up top, don't do this, don't do that...but hey go up and go find human's refuse to eat, thats okay just dont get seen. Thats a little whacked out...
I believe Splinter's lectures about people helped ALOT to contribute to Raph's anger, and then Splinter's got the balls to lecture him about his anger...well hell rat, you freaking helped him be what he is! Get over it! Oh well, thats just one of my random thoughts.

I don't like the stick whacking, I think Splinter could have worked out a better way to discipline the boys(I liked in TMNT2, backflips!), I can see the whacks chipping away Raph's self esteem somewhat, he is the more deliacte in the mind, more sensitive to everything and their situation-yeah, you may think he's got alot of self esteem, but does he really? Anyways, I dont like the hitting...but then I don't hit my kid as a form of discipline, we've found that taking away Nintendo, his brand new computer and other goodies works better!

Now I've typed out my thoughts... I REALLY like Splinter. He is one of the coolest senseis in fiction. Just some things I don't agree with that he does.

*Ponders...how would Raph had turned out if they had a mom figure as they grew up?*

[terran631]

Hey BL!

LOL, we've had this convo before . I agree with you that Splinter contributed to Raphael's anger issues and if there was one huge mistake he ever made it was that one. But honestly I think he did the best he knew how. He was trying to protect his sons and fear is a very powerful weapon. And Raphael was a bit more sensitive to that persuasion than the others.

(ahem! I've written this very fic. )

As for the lectures, well, even if Splinter contributed doesn't mean that he can't try to help. It's better than letting the thing with Mikey and the wrench happen again. Compare it to a parent "encouraging" whining by giving into it so many times. Then they realize what they are doing and seek to correct it by discplining or ignoring the whining. Its the same kind of situation but on a less serious scale.

LOL, the mom thing. The boys missed a lot not having the influence of a woman growing up

[Buslady]

Originally Posted by terran631

Hey BL!

LOL, we've had this convo before . I agree with you that Splinter contributed to Raphael's anger issues and if there was one huge mistake he ever made it was that one. But honestly I think he did the best he knew how. He was trying to protect his sons and fear is a very powerful weapon. And Raphael was a bit more sensitive to that persuasion than the others.

(ahem! I've written this very fic. )

As for the lectures, well, even if Splinter contributed doesn't mean that he can't try to help. It's better than letting the thing with Mikey and the wrench happen again. Compare it to a parent "encouraging" whining by giving into it so many times. Then they realize what they are doing and seek to correct it by discplining or ignoring the whining. Its the same kind of situation but on a less serious scale.

LOL, the mom thing. The boys missed a lot not having the influence of a woman growing up

Yes we have gone over this awhile back. Of course Splinter did what he felt was best but if only he knew the results with his most sensitve son.
I wonder if that fear Raph had/has made him more likely to kill a bad guy out of the fear of the human.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Buslady

I don't like the stick whacking, I think Splinter could have worked out a better way to discipline the boys(I liked in TMNT2, backflips!), I can see the whacks chipping away Raph's self esteem somewhat, he is the more deliacte in the mind, more sensitive to everything and their situation-yeah, you may think he's got alot of self esteem, but does he really? Anyways, I dont like the hitting...but then I don't hit my kid as a form of discipline, we've found that taking away Nintendo, his brand new computer and other goodies works better!

Heh, I don't recall Splinter hitting Raph with the stick... I thought we were talking about Mikey. Eh, suppose I can't blame you. But I agree with you about Raph's anger, and I'm sure he wouldn't take it well if Splinter whacked him.

[Buslady]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Heh, I don't recall Splinter hitting Raph with the stick... I thought we were talking about Mikey. Eh, suppose I can't blame you. But I agree with you about Raph's anger, and I'm sure he wouldn't take it well if Splinter whacked him.

Im sure Splinter's whacked them all at one time or other while they grew up. Kids will act up during lessons and such...just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's never happened.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by Buslady

I've wondered if Splinter's so wonderful, why is Raph (or was in some versions) such an angry person? Splinters brainwashing of the evilness of humans, dont go up top, don't do this, don't do that...but hey go up and go find human's refuse to eat, thats okay just dont get seen. Thats a little whacked out...
I believe Splinter's lectures about people helped ALOT to contribute to Raph's anger, and then Splinter's got the balls to lecture him about his anger...well hell rat, you freaking helped him be what he is! Get over it! Oh well, thats just one of my random thoughts.

I don't like the stick whacking, I think Splinter could have worked out a better way to discipline the boys(I liked in TMNT2, backflips!), I can see the whacks chipping away Raph's self esteem somewhat, he is the more deliacte in the mind, more sensitive to everything and their situation-yeah, you may think he's got alot of self esteem, but does he really? Anyways, I dont like the hitting...but then I don't hit my kid as a form of discipline, we've found that taking away Nintendo, his brand new computer and other goodies works better!

Now I've typed out my thoughts... I REALLY like Splinter. He is one of the coolest senseis in fiction. Just some things I don't agree with that he does.

*Ponders...how would Raph had turned out if they had a mom figure as they grew up?*

Buslady you are so perceptive.

I agree with just about every thing you just said. Splinter does have a rather hypicritical way of portraying humans to the turtles. This, humans won't under stand you and try to kill and dissect you speil he feeds them all the time coupled with the, you must defend them if they are in danger but never make your self known to them, sends mixed messges. No wonder the Raphael is testy all the time if he is getting mixed messages. Its no wonder the turtles haven't come to resent humans to an extent because they are forced to hide from them because their personal safety would be in danger, but they have have to save them if they are in danger while not making their presence known to them. I would hate that after a while.

As to Mikey. I guess we could agree to disagree. It makes sence that he baits his family for no other reason than just to get a rise out of them. But I do still think that there is some low self esteem at work at his part. Why can't it be a case of both? I don't think thats to far a stetch. Because he genuanly likes annoying his family and because he feels the need to remind people that he is there. I think it stems for reasons i've already mentioned. I think his boasting is a form of over compensation just to remind his brothers, that he is good as well. He may be the speedist and most athletic of the turtles (agruably, I think they all all equal) but he doesn't have a definable niche in the team dynamic. And if he is so confidant than why does he always act unsure of him self and his abilties when he has to put his money where his mouth is? I think his bravodo in some part is all just an act to save face. And it doesn't help when others take pot shots at his intelligence eighther, like he is stupid. If some acts like you are dumb, after a while you are going to behave the way that you are treated.

One instance with Mikey and Splinter that I didn't like was in Touch and Go when he kind of takes a shot at Mikey's intellgance. A parent shouldn';t do that if you want them to act more responicble and use your mind more. I would get more solid arguments to this but I have to go again.

But I will say that, yes Splinter took Mikey to task in Grudge match about his cocky attitude, but at that point it was little to late. Why didn't he do it earlier than that?

[Spawn Guy]

I could be wrong, but I think it was because Mikey never got himself into anything, that serious. As for insulting his intelligence...yeah, he shouldn't have said it, but I find it hard to believe someone has never said something they didn't mean. My father has said some things I took the wrong way, hell at times I think he can be flat out arrogant, but that's not because he's not good at being a parent. It's because he's only human.


And yes, I know the same thing dosen't apply to Splinter, but you know what I mean.

People say there all these things Splinter shouldn't do, but there are things people shouldn't do all the time that, one way or another, they actually do. And I fail to see how that would really screw the guys over. We all know it could be a lot worse.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Buslady

Im sure Splinter's whacked them all at one time or other while they grew up. Kids will act up during lessons and such...just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's never happened.

That's true. Ugh, I hope he hasn't with Raph. That would crush someone like Raphael. I guess maybe it isn't that painful for Mikey, because he seems to be used to it and, in some twisted way, enjoy the attention.

And Sage Ninja, I agree with you there, especially about the shots taken at Mikey's intelligence. Sometimes my friends tease me for being a bit slow on the uptake (I'm a kind of absent-minded person; in fact, I'm a little like Mike because I sometimes take on the role of comic relief and act more cute than I am). But because they tease me about it, I take the joke further and act even more spacey for the attention. Yeah I have problems.

I don't think people with genuine self-esteem need to brag or boast. Even complete narcissists who think they're the greatest have low self-esteem in some way or other, because they brag to make sure others know how great they are. The people with the best self-esteem don't need to say anything. Like Donatello.

[Warhorse]

Can I put my two cents in? Well, I'm going to if you like it or not.

About this thing on Splinter sending mixed messages to his sons about not meddling with humans while at the same time protecting them. This is how I see it.

If you were a human, walking the streets of NYC at night, alone, and saw a 5'5" walking, talking reptile, what would you really do? You would shoot first, and ask questions later, so to speak. Humans unfortunately don't exactly treat the unknown with arms wide open. It's almost a survival instict that has been engraved into our DNA for thousands of years. But then you also have the human that is curious and would want to capture the Turtles and dissect them, clone them, what not. History has proven that this is a most likey scenario, and probably Splinter's worst nightmare. He has definite reasons to instill in the Turtles the dangers a human can possess.

But at the same time, the Turtles are still human at heart, and it would be only logical for Splinter to give them objectives in life, actually something to look forward to and feel special about, and being silent heroes to the humans seems to fit that bill perfectly. We all need something to live for, and I think that was what Splinter could best condition the boys to beable to get out of life. Splinter is doing what he can to make sure they make the most of it.

But I still don't like the whacking. Once the kid gets past 15, do you really see smacking or whacking as a means to control them? Really?

[mik8la]

Originally Posted by Rooish

The people with the best self-esteem don't need to say anything. Like Donatello.

Donatello can boast, too ("Am I good, or am I good!" "Yes! I am the turtle!").

[Rooish]

Oh yeah. LOL.

[Sage Ninja]

Personally I don't think Splinter uses the same type of disaplign on all the turtles at the same time. I think Splinter is astute enough to realize that Raphael is delicate-minded (as Buslady put it, I hope I didn't quote her wrong) not to use that type of punishment to keep him in line, like he would with Mikey. Seeing how Raphael has a temper probelm I think Splinter probably handled/handles Raph diffrently, and probably only whacks him when all the turtles screw up at the same thing, like when they went to challenge Shredder (debatedly) against his wishs. We see Splinter whacking them now that they are teenagers, but do you think he whacked them when the where little kids? In the episode The Lesson when the boys got caught disobeying Splinter, do you think Splinter decked the turtles in their soft tender eight year old heads, gave them a beating or spanked them? Or do you think he just screamed them stupid and gave them extra chores or some thing as punishment. Maybe this "whack" up side the head thing is a fairly recent form of disaplign Splinter incorporated when the turtles hit puberty because they are old enough to "take a hit" in the head and probably is old enough not to take stupid risks.

And I mentioned earlier that I wondered why Splinter allows some things to go for as long as they do in his family, when he should probably step in. Like the whole animosity between Leo and Raph. I know others have mentioned that it doesn' seem so apprant in the new toon, but I felt the animosty between the two was more off screen and alluded to. Resulting in the two being fiercely competive with one another. I wonder if Splinter didn't allow the competiveness to continue because of some ultertive motive of strengthening the team dynamic. You know, by letting these two compete with one another that it motivates them to out do each other and work to their fullest potenticial. that would be a little whacked out. If that where the case I wonder why he didn't try something like that with Mikey to get him to be more motivated and train harder. As it is Mikey just slacks off.

I could be wrong, but I think it was because Mikey never got himself into anything, that serious

I'm not sure I under stand what you are saying here. Him gloating about his battle nexus championship win is typical of Mikey, So I don't see how that was serious, and if you are refering to Kluh comeing back to challenge Mikey, there was no way of Splinter of knowing that...i'm assuming.

[Sage Ninja]

I'm sorry I couldn't help my self, but I was cruising through youtube and found this clip of a typical Splinter trying to conduct a lesson and one of the turtles act out situation, where he has to resort to useing the cane to get his point across, and couldn't help but think of all the discussions and objections that have come here about his use of the cane on the turtles.

(this statment is made in jest) Disclaimer: the following content may be upsetting to some viewers who are sensitive to canes or flying objects. View discretion is advised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY79Pg85fK0

So what do you all think? Who was more out of line, Mikey or Splinter?