Who is your favorite TMNT.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

Though light-hearted overall, Mikey isn't immune to depression, which in his case usually comes from their separation from the human world. He'd love nothing more than to be able to walk the city streets and socialize with all the people he came into contact with, but he can't. He also probably feels the strongest guilt for the people he and his brothers kill, self defense or not, and occasionally this will hit home. He's also sensitive to negative comments from his brothers, whose opinions he values very highly. Whatever's making Mike feel down, he'll usually go hide himself somewhere to be sad about it, worrying that his brothers may think differently of him if they ever saw him this way... perhaps then his peacemaking skills wouldn't be as effective?

Just like sadness, Mikey shows outward anger sparingly. When he does get visibly angry, it's rather scary because you know there's enough built up that he can't conceal it any more. In family situations Mike's anger is the scary silent type... in terms of enemies (say, a ninja jumps out of nowhere and kills Don) he's more liable to go into a Raph-like rage, but it would take a severe hurt to do that, probably related to an injury to his family (as evidenced by the example), to which he's fiercely loyal.

While he enjoys training enough, after a while Mikey gets bored with it and goes off to do something fun. These will include video games, reading (comic books or whatever books they've collected over the years... they're all great to lose himself in), or even art. It's one of those far-flung dreams of his to one day draw comic books, or even write a best-selling novel. He's got natural talent in the martial arts, and if he had the drive or focus to surpass Leonardo he would most likely be able to do it... but he doesn't place much importance on being the "best," perferring to have fun with life. And while he's never even thought about it, his rising to the position of top fighter would probably change his relationship with Leonardo to be pretty uncomfortable, and he would regret it once he got there.

As for Leo, Mikey looks up to him as a big brother and shining example. Of course he believes Leo could stand to lighten up a lot, but he respects him for what he does for the family. He's also able to bring out a little bit of Leo's fun side, which he enjoys doing. Leo appreciates Mike for his peacemaker personality, and doesn't underestimate his skill like Don or Raph might on occasion - good especially for impromptu battle plans. He sees Mikey's potential and wishes he'd work harder to achieve it, but if Mikey ever surpassed him he honestly wouldn't know how to react.

Mikey feels like he knows Don the least, mainly because Don likes to spend a lot of time by himself and this doesn't compute to Mike's social-butterfly brain. They can have fun together easily enough, but sometimes Mikey feels like he just doesn't know Don well enough, like they think on totally different planes. Don, on the other hand, loves spending time with Mikey... though he does get annoyed whenever his "alone time" is disrupted. He also wishes Mikey would apply himself to something a little bit more, not seeing as much value in his younger brother's sketches and writings as Mikey himself does. (could be the left-brainedness in him?)[/color].

wow Masked Ninja you and I must be on the same brain waves or something because you have basically described the Michaelangelo that I like and what characteristics I would to see him display. i have to say that even though I like Michaelangelo I have always felt a little dissaticfied with his representation. I mean I see certain indepth characteristics that he has in the new toon (and the old toon) but for me the writters have always fell shy of ever delving into them and making him more three-demintional and have always choose to emblish his more silly or hyper-active side.

I guess when you like a character but they are not meeting your wants exaclty as a fan you tend to take what is hinted at in the show and then develop them in your imagination to what you feel is more true to that character. The Michaelangelo in my immagination is a bit diffrent in my head that what is shown on screen, and you have basically mentioned every single one of them. His multi-faceted emotions and his occasinal depression on not going out in the real world, his relationships his brothers. his prowess and potentical as a warrior and his scarey silent anger (that floored me when you mentioned that) and his artistic inclinations, to how his brother percive him (Leo's apprication for Mikey's thoughts and skills) and his closeness to Raph. Its almost like you looked into my head and took my imagined Michaelangelo!

Although in my head I imagine Mikey while angry being able to delever a verbal smack down on some one and being able to to word something in just such a way that can really cut and devistate you because he hits the truth. And only says things when he really means it and is very hard to win an agrument with because his bouts of anger are more of the rightous "How dare you!!" kind of anger when he feels he's been trully wronged.

However I do think I want to challenge you on one thing. I don't think Michaelangelo is nessacarely holding back his potentical just to not compete or usurp Leonardo's postition in the team. i think he just looks up to him to much to even try. Also I think Leonardo would have no problem if Michaelangelo became as good as him. I think Leonardo is confident in him self enough not to feel threatened by Michaelangelo and his talents. In fact I think if he Mikey did become as good as him I think Leo would appricate having some one to spar with him on his own skill level. I draw this conclusion from Grudge match because he was the only one who seemed uneffected by Mikey's boasting and actually helped him defend his title as Battle Nexus champion (which was something he hinself was in run for as well). I just enjoy Michaelangelo and Leonardo pairings since they seem to get along so well. Like in "Nobody's Fool.

. The one thing I must ask about is Mike's relationship with Don. Those two spend a lot of time together in most of the TMNT mediums. I definitely get that Mike doesn't get Don sometimes, finding him distant. But they definitely seem to have a good rapport, although I can imagine that Don might get more out of their relationship in terms of emotional connection. Mike is so friendly that everyone feels loved by him, and even Don needs love, sometimes. But they do have some things in common--they are less interested in training, they are less confrontational and egotistical, and they are peacemakers. I can see them understanding each other in that way.

I have to agree on Masked Ninja on the whole Donatello and Mikey thing. I don't know why but Mikey and Donatello as a pair just seems so out of place and forced. Like they hang or are stuck with each other because Leo and Raph have their thing between them going on. Don and Mikey are my least favorite pairing and it seems to the most likely paring in the movies and new toon. And I just not feeling their rapport. I also get the feeling that Don gets the most exasperated by Mikey and has the least amount of tolrance.

I think Mike and Raph were the best of friends when they were younger. Then Raph got more depressed and angry, and he also started seeking more power. This lead to Raph's conflicts with Leo, but also to his closeness with Leo (shown especially in the movies and new toon). So Mike settled more for Don's companionship. I think that Mike misses Raph and wishes they could just have fun together again, but Raph is focused on Leo now. They still have good times, but I don't think they get each other quite as much when Raph is competing with Leo.

I've thought this too as well. I think Mikey and Raph had a closer relationship when they where younger than what they do now. And I think the competiveness between Leo and Raph is the reason for it ad that in a sence Raph has choosen Leonardo's company over his as a result. In fact in later seasons Raph and Mikey never seem to get along all that well any more. I think the reason for this is that Raphael has changed and Mikey hasn't, and settled for Donatello's company by default. i wonder if thats the reason Mikey is more in Raphael's face than what he used to be, you know trying to get his attention again. I also wondr if Mikey feels in a sence that Casey stole Raph away from him, since they have so much in common. I don't to much evidence of this but Raph did apear to concebtrate on Casey than Mikey when he showed up. I know that Raph and Mikey have a closer friendship in the mirage comics and hung alot but Raph kind of ditches Mikey for Casey after he shows up. Was there any hints of jealously on Mikey's part when Casey showed up and too Raph's attention away?

heretic888 I'll get back to you when I have a chance I few things to say about what you posted.

[Raph86]

I'd say Raph, Mikey, Don, and then Leo

[poobone]

If you wanna get specific, I'd say Leo, Donnie, Raph, and then Mikey.

[poobone]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

My personal version of Michelangelo (aka, what I'd write in my own TMNT story... aka my favorite characteristics mashed together) would be like this:

(warning: long personality overanalysis ahead! my brain got bored and my fingers just kept typing )


Mike's the one who keeps the others from getting too serious, but not solely in a comic relief kind of way. Being so readily social, he's just naturally able to get everyone (even Leo) to join in whatever fun he's cooking up without being overbearing or annoying about it. That said, he does enjoy bad/lame jokes and tells them partially because he thinks they're funny and partially because the "uuuugh" reactions from his bros cracks him up as much as the jokes. This does earn him the occasional headwhap from Raph, but he knows it's not administered out of pure annoyance, so he just savors the attention, maybe reciprocating with some playful jabs of his own. He's rarely happier than when having a good time with his family, or even friends of the family - just a social creature by nature. Of course, he's perfectly capable of being serious when the situation needs it, and he can usually tell when those times are.

Though light-hearted overall, Mikey isn't immune to depression, which in his case usually comes from their separation from the human world. He'd love nothing more than to be able to walk the city streets and socialize with all the people he came into contact with, but he can't. He also probably feels the strongest guilt for the people he and his brothers kill, self defense or not, and occasionally this will hit home. He's also sensitive to negative comments from his brothers, whose opinions he values very highly. Whatever's making Mike feel down, he'll usually go hide himself somewhere to be sad about it, worrying that his brothers may think differently of him if they ever saw him this way... perhaps then his peacemaking skills wouldn't be as effective? Extreme cases see Mikey sneaking to Splinter's side for emotional support, but he tries to keep this rare. His brothers are pretty perceptive, however, and can tell when he's upset... especially when he mysteriously disappears for several hours.

Fights in general are kind of a love/hate thing for Mikey. He hates having to kill people, but at the same time he loves being outside in the open air. He also loves feeling part of the team in whatever missions they have to accomplish. And the guilt doesn't even come until after the battle - during, it's almost a game for him as he outmaneuvers the enemy with as much style as he can afford.

Just like sadness, Mikey shows outward anger sparingly. When he does get visibly angry, it's rather scary because you know there's enough built up that he can't conceal it any more. In family situations Mike's anger is the scary silent type... in terms of enemies (say, a ninja jumps out of nowhere and kills Don) he's more liable to go into a Raph-like rage, but it would take a severe hurt to do that, probably related to an injury to his family (as evidenced by the example), to which he's fiercely loyal.

While he enjoys training enough, after a while Mikey gets bored with it and goes off to do something fun. These will include video games, reading (comic books or whatever books they've collected over the years... they're all great to lose himself in), or even art. It's one of those far-flung dreams of his to one day draw comic books, or even write a best-selling novel. He's got natural talent in the martial arts, and if he had the drive or focus to surpass Leonardo he would most likely be able to do it... but he doesn't place much importance on being the "best," perferring to have fun with life. And while he's never even thought about it, his rising to the position of top fighter would probably change his relationship with Leonardo to be pretty uncomfortable, and he would regret it once he got there.

Mikey gets along best with Raph, who he finds to be more fun to hang around with than Leo or Don, who are less social and more focused on their own interests. Videogame tournaments and practical jokes are common, as well as the type of silliness Leo or Don may not allow themselves to participate in. Raph sometimes feels like Mikey's the one who understands him the most, and instinctively gravitates to him when having emotional issues (often when he sneaks back into the lair after storming topside for whatever reason)

As for Leo, Mikey looks up to him as a big brother and shining example. Of course he believes Leo could stand to lighten up a lot, but he respects him for what he does for the family. He's also able to bring out a little bit of Leo's fun side, which he enjoys doing. Leo appreciates Mike for his peacemaker personality, and doesn't underestimate his skill like Don or Raph might on occasion - good especially for impromptu battle plans. He sees Mikey's potential and wishes he'd work harder to achieve it, but if Mikey ever surpassed him he honestly wouldn't know how to react.

Mikey feels like he knows Don the least, mainly because Don likes to spend a lot of time by himself and this doesn't compute to Mike's social-butterfly brain. They can have fun together easily enough, but sometimes Mikey feels like he just doesn't know Don well enough, like they think on totally different planes. Don, on the other hand, loves spending time with Mikey... though he does get annoyed whenever his "alone time" is disrupted. He also wishes Mikey would apply himself to something a little bit more, not seeing as much value in his younger brother's sketches and writings as Mikey himself does. (could be the left-brainedness in him?)

As I've said many times, I can't pick a favorite Turtle very easily anymore, and even when I try it seems to change alot. But this would probably be my favorite Michelangelo. I see a hint of this Mikey in a few of the new movie posters - the one where he's actually got his serious face on. For whatever reason, those make me really happy. Too bad Mikey's obviously going to be more extreme and silly and maybe a little ADHD in the actual movie. But if I get to see at least one serious face from him, I'll be satisfied.

...heaven forbid I try something like this for the other Turtles. That was a lot of words.

Dude, you most definitely should do this with all the other turtles. That was awesome.

[Rooish]

You're right, Mask and Sage, the Don/Mikey friendship is really forced. Now that I think about it more, I see Don just putting up with Mikey. It really pisses me off that these two characters who lack the ability to grow when they're together are always stuck together. But, oh, Leo and Raph! Leo and Raph!

Sage Ninja, I always wondered how Mikey couldn't be jealous that he "lost" Raph to Casey and Leo. But in the old comics, he didn't really get any character growth until Jim Lawson and then the Image guys took over, so it doesn't really matter what Mikey felt for the first 62 issues!

heretic888 ... I'm pretty sure we can read into whatever we want. It seems to me that Mikey has self-esteem issues, not so much in the old comics (which doesn't matter anyway because he had such as small role), but definitely in the new toon. He's always freaking out and trying to forfeit about everything--like when he was set against Raph or Kluh or Splinter in the Battle Nexus, orwhen Leo was training him in "Grudge Match," or in "Good Genes, Part 2," where he cowered in terror as the Foot Elite tried to take back the artifact and while Leo was fighting them off. He may have gained uber-speed in the Ninja Tribunal, but he gained this power after Raph and Don already had accessed theirs, which were equally powerful. And then Leo summoned his own friggin' dragon before the others did. Geez, Mikey was in last place.

Mike needs to brag or joke just to fake having self-esteem. Sometimes he is genuinely cocky, but often this is only after initially doubting himself.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Rooish

You're right, Mask and Sage, the Don/Mikey friendship is really forced. Now that I think about it more, I see Don just putting up with Mikey. It really pisses me off that these two characters who lack the ability to grow when they're together are always stuck together. But, oh, Leo and Raph! Leo and Raph! He may have gained uber-speed in the Ninja Tribunal, but he gained this power after Raph and Don already had accessed theirs, which were equally powerful. And then Leo summoned his own friggin' dragon before the others did. Geez, Mikey was in last place.

Donatello/Michaelangelo forced? Nah, wouldn't say that. Yes Michaelangelo and Donatello have their differences and sometimes Michaelangelo gets on Donatello's nerves, but they also have their similarities and get along pretty darn well. And they don't grow together either? As a twosome, they perform pretty well, like in Junklantis and the beginning of Secret Origins Part 2.

Spoiler:

And yes, Leonardo summoned the dragon first, but the actual "transformation to the dragon" didn't actually occur until "Enter the Dragons: Part 2", in which case it was a tie for all four of them, no first place, no last place.

[heretic888]

Originally Posted by Rooish

heretic888 ... I'm pretty sure we can read into whatever we want. It seems to me that Mikey has self-esteem issues, not so much in the old comics (which doesn't matter anyway because he had such as small role), but definitely in the new toon.

I never said you couldn't, but the key issue here is that half of the stuff you guys are speculating on comes right out of your imagination. It is not justified in the relevant "text" whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Rooish

He's always freaking out and trying to forfeit about everything--like when he was set against Raph or Kluh or Splinter in the Battle Nexus, orwhen Leo was training him in "Grudge Match," or in "Good Genes, Part 2," where he cowered in terror as the Foot Elite tried to take back the artifact and while Leo was fighting them off.

And this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Mike "freaks out" for comic effect. There is no psychological metanarrative about self-esteem compensation here, outside of one that is purely fabricated. The writers make Mike out that way to evoke some laughs from their audience.

As to whether this "freak out" behavior is genuine or simply a ruse on Mike's part, we really can't say. No matter what anybody pretends to do with this character analysis, we just don't have that much information on the character, due primarily to the nature of the medium (it is a Saturday morning cartoon, after all). You can't justify it is genuine fear anymore than I can justify its a half-hearted act. The truth of the matter is the "text" offers very little depth into the characters.

Although, when it comes to the Battle Nexus match against Raph, I would argue it definitely was a ruse. He deliberately manipulated and misdirected his brother to gain a tactical advantage.

Originally Posted by Rooish

He may have gained uber-speed in the Ninja Tribunal, but he gained this power after Raph and Don already had accessed theirs, which were equally powerful.

If by "equally powerful" you mean "completely useless", then sure.

The "power" that Raph and Don acquired was pointless because of the weapons they had acquired. You will notice that after their training, Raph and Don not once used their "power" in actual combat. They just smashed things with their weapons, like Mike and Leo did.

Mike, however, did use his speed ability after their training.

Originally Posted by Rooish

And then Leo summoned his own friggin' dragon before the others did. Geez, Mikey was in last place.

Yes, Mike and Leo were the only two with "unique" abilities. I'm not sure which "last place" you're referring to here, as none of the others but Leo acquired the dragon avatar.

Originally Posted by Rooish

Mike needs to brag or joke just to fake having self-esteem. Sometimes he is genuinely cocky, but often this is only after initially doubting himself.

You, of course, have no justification for this assessment in the "text" itself. You can't tell me his behavior is genuine as opposed to contrived, because such information is unavailable to us. Like I said in my first post, much of what has been discussed here is just reading into the characters what we want there to be.

Have a good one.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by heretic888

If by "equally powerful" you mean "completely useless", then sure.

The "power" that Raph and Don acquired was pointless because of the weapons they had acquired. You will notice that after their training, Raph and Don not once used their "power" in actual combat. They just smashed things with their weapons, like Mike and Leo did.

Mike, however, did use his speed ability after their training.

Yes, Mike and Leo were the only two with "unique" abilities. I'm not sure which "last place" you're referring to here, as none of the others but Leo acquired the dragon avatar.

Spoiler:

I'm sure I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about here. Raphael and Donatello didn't use their powers? Leonardo's and Michaelangelo's abilities were the only unique ones? Only Leonardo had the dragon avatar? There are two things you obviously didn't watch: the battle scenes in whatever Lost Season episodes have aired; and the Spoilers for "Enter the Dragons Part 2". Not to mention, not all Lost Season episodes have been shown yet, don't you think you're speaking a little too soon?

[Masked Ninja]

Originally Posted by heretic888

I never said you couldn't, but the key issue here is that half of the stuff you guys are speculating on comes right out of your imagination. It is not justified in the relevant "text" whatsoever.

And if you'll look, I stated this in the beginning of my huge Mikey post. I don't intend to ignore canon, just fill in blanks based on what I've seen. I haven't read very many of the comics, but I'm keeping an eye out for them so I can. I just thought it'd be fun to ramble on a bit and see what happened.

Didn't know I had the ultimate authority on Michelangelo watching.

Oh, and as for Mikey and Don hanging out: I don't think it's forced. I just don't think they're the closest of close, at least not as much as they try to make it sometimes. The first movie, while I loved it, felt a little weird. Don being Mikey's purple-wearin' clone was part of it, but them hanging out and joking together was the second. I guess I'd always assumed Don and Leo would get along the best.

[MrOldSchool]

Leo, because my man Cam Clarke does his voice. Big Cam Clarke fan here. I got his autograph!

[Unicron the Agitator]

I have always liked Leo the best. First, because as a Kid I liked the fact that his mask was blue and that was my favorite color. But as I got into the Mirage comics, I liked Leo's sense of Bushido and his passion for his art. But his character development in the 2K3 series really put him over the top. Leo assuming the role of "big brother", and not being affraid to take the big chances showed us that he isn't just "Splinter Jr.". And I loved the angry, hard Leo after being stabbed in the back during the final fight with Shredder. It aded another demension to his character.

I totally understood what he was going through. He had spent the lion's share of his life putting the others before him, and in the end it wasn't enough. It was a perfect example of the teen who was forced to be "too perfect", only to burst under the pressure. Leo's intense training and jaded behavior wah akin to a drug addiction, a way to deal with the pressure. He finally had to seek "therapy" from the Ancient One to help him understand that eveything doesn't always have to be his responsibility.

Just to weigh in on Mikey's "innate potential" and his victories over Raph, there are a few factors that need to be addressed. For starters, Mikey's win in the Battle Nexus was aided by the fact that Splinter forfieted their match. Had Splinter fought, Mikey might not have made it to the match with Raph. Splinter's gesture may have had the biggest impact on the Battle Nexus tournament.

Also, Mikey and Don's relationship seems very natural. Both have child-like wonder, and enjoy much of the same things. I think Don enjoys making all the cool gadgets as much as Mikey loves playing with them. It's like the comic book geek and the computer nerd hanging out. Doesn't seem too forced to me.

[heretic888]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

And if you'll look, I stated this in the beginning of my huge Mikey post. I don't intend to ignore canon, just fill in blanks based on what I've seen. I haven't read very many of the comics, but I'm keeping an eye out for them so I can. I just thought it'd be fun to ramble on a bit and see what happened.

I'm not sure what you mean by "canon" here (the comics, I assume).

When I used the term "text", I was doing so in reference to the original literary source for the character analysis (something done commonly in literary criticism). It was not explicitly in reference to the comic books.

And I'm going to have to reiterate the obvious here: a lot of this is just you guys making stuff up because it sounds good. It is not justified in the source "text" and, as such, equally valid yet completely contradictory interpretations of the characters can be culled from them. That is problematic.

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

Didn't know I had the ultimate authority on Michelangelo watching.

I'm not the "ultimate authority" of anything. However, I do believe in the merits of sound logic.

Laterz.

[Rooish]

Oy! Masked Ninja did state pretty clearly that those were her opinions; she never tried to say that she was the authority. I suppose that, in a thread where everyone is supposed to give their unique individual opinions on their favorite Turtles, based on their unique individual interpretations of the TMNT, I should have made a disclaimer that I was stating my own.

With any story, you have to fill in the blanks if you want to form a full opinion on a particular person. Everyone's is different. It seems that several people agreed with Masked Ninja and interpreted Mikey the same way she does, which suggests that she's not just pulling those opinions out of thin air, but out of some sort of evidence. As for me, I suppose there are events in the 2003 cartoon that could lead one to interpret that Mikey has high self-esteem, but I have interpreted events the opposite way.

For example, Mikey won the original Battle Nexus tournament because a) Usagi and Leo were disqualified, and I'm sure they both could have given Mikey a run for his money, b) Splinter forfeited for Mikey's sake, c) Mikey was pitted against Raph, who Mikey had had practice fighting against, and d) he hit Kluh accidentally when the fight wasn't even on. If I had won that way, I would have felt pretty guilty and inadequate, knowing that I wasn't "the best fighter in all the multiverse," as Mikey says in "Grudge Match," but just someone who had gotten very lucky a bunch of times. I don't see why anyone would brag about such a thing unless he was insecure about his cheap win and wanted to cover that up. And I don't see why he would have lay there and let Kluh pound the crap out of him for so long in "Grudge Match" if he didn't truly think he couldn't win. I don't think that freak out of his was purely for comic effect; I sure wasn't laughing at that part.

I'm not even sure that one could say there is a true Mikey, or a true Leo, Raph or Don, except perhaps in Peter Laird's head ... but Peter Laird is not the only person who has written things that are considered "canon." So has Jim Lawson, Kevin Eastman, those who wrote the original movie, those who write the 2003 cartoon, and Kevin Munroe. As far as I know, all the Mirage comics, as well as the 2003 cartoon and the 1st, 4th, and to a small extent the 2nd movies are going to be considered "canon," because Pete approves of them strongly. And they aren't even compatible; the characters act different in all of them and different events occur. So we have to amalgamate the evidence and create "true" Leos, Raphs, Dons and Mikeys for ourselves.

Geez, reading into things is part of the fun of being a fan!

And oh yeah, I don't mean that Don's and Mikey's relationship in the 'toon is "forced" in that they don't act natural with each other or enjoy one another (I agree with you about the childlike wonder, Unicron). I mean that the writers force the relationship to be the main one for each of them because the writers are so focused on keeping Leo and Raph as a pair. And I don't think Don would be Mikey's first choice as a friend, or vice versa.

[triplexxx]

I'm not even sure that one could say there is a true Mikey, or a true Leo, Raph or Don, except perhaps in Peter Laird's head ... but Peter Laird is not the only person who has written things that are considered "canon." So has Jim Lawson, Kevin Eastman, those who wrote the original movie, those who write the 2003 cartoon, and Kevin Munroe. As far as I know, all the Mirage comics, as well as the 2003 cartoon and the 1st, 4th, and to a small extent the 2nd movies are going to be considered "canon," because Pete approves of them strongly. And they aren't even compatible; the characters act different in all of them and different events occur. So we have to amalgamate the evidence and create "true" Leos, Raphs, Dons and Mikeys for ourselves.

Excellent point, if only you could get more fans to acknowledge this, especially those calling Laird a deuch at IMDb.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Excellent point, if only you could get more fans to acknowledge this, especially those calling Laird a deuch at IMDb.

Haha, you noticed that too on the IMdb boards. That particular thread has gotten rather bizzarre. People are just arguing now for the sake of arguing.

[Masked Ninja]

Originally Posted by heretic888

When I used the term "text", I was doing so in reference to the original literary source for the character analysis (something done commonly in literary criticism). It was not explicitly in reference to the comic books.

Are you referring to the Palladium RPG here? And if so, how "official" is that?

I don't mean to be argumentative, but your condescending tone is getting on my nerves. Especially since I was clear that my ramblings are for FUN.

[heretic888]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

Are you referring to the Palladium RPG here?

No. In the context of the discussion in which I used the term, I was referring to the animated series on FoxBox.

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

And if so, how "official" is that?

Its as "official" as it gets when discussing the Mirage characters (I was told this explicitly by Dan Berger via email), but that is neither here nor there.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by heretic888

Uhhh.... which version of Michelangelo are we talking about here??

In the new toon, Mike is the reigning Battle Nexus champion and defeated both Raphael and Kluh to prove it. And, in the unreleased "lost season", he mastered the technique of blinding speed, something none of his other brothers can do. I don't think he has any "self esteem" issues in this medium.

In the comic, Mike is much more emotionally mature and self-assured. He has defeated Raph twice in sparring (issue 2 and the Raphael one-shot), so I don't think he has any doubts about his combat ability. And, unlike the new toon, Mike actually has a bevy of artistic talents in the new comic.

No offense, guys, but I think you are reading truckloads into these characters that just isn't there.

ok, I think this has already been stated before that what Masked Ninja was talking about was her favorite Michaelangelo characteristics all meshed together when she does fan fic. And that is what we where talking about. And I can understand how talking about our "imagined" Michaelanglo might have discredited us and made it appear we saying things that wheren't apparent when we started talking about the "real" new toon Mikey.

I think (and I'm talking about my obsevations of his actions in the new toon) that Michaelangelo does have some self-esteem issues despite being physically gifted. Its not so much his tendacy to brag that leads me to belive this but his constant desire to do things out in the open and be reconised for his actions and deeds. A great example of this is in the Unconvinceing Turtle Titan episode where he creates his own alter ego so that is diffrent from his ninja persona so he fight crime in the open and be awknowledged. He wants admiration and appriciation and he's not getting it from his little circle of a life so he wants it from people. I think Mike for all his talents feels a little put out by the whole "live in the shadows" and "never be seen" life style, since it doesn't fit his out going personality. I;ve made this agument before but I think the underlying reason for Michaelangelo creating turtle titan in the first place wasn't just so he can play super hero but so he can have a chance to shine on his own with out his brothers there stealing his thunder. I mean he can fight and he is strong and fast but so are Leo, Don, and Raph and this is something that he can't say he has alone. Michaelangelo is an attention seeker and he wants to be noticed and awknolwdged on his own merits.

I don't think the whole team dynamic works to well for Michaelangelo and that why I think he is still hung up on his whole Turtle titan persona. Their are other examples of him wanting to be awknowledged for his talents like in the battle nexus tournament where he admitted to Splinter that it was nice to be doing this sort of thing out in the open and have the admiration of the crowds, he was totally eating it up. And I know this could be written off as not being a sign of low self esteem but just a desire for attention but I think given his living sitution I think hes developed something of complex. That and for reasons Rooish has already pointed out, I was going to mentions those but he/she beat me to it, there is actually more but I can't think of any off the top pf my head right now. But any way these are just things that I have have intepreted as signs that Mikey isn't as self assured and happy go luck as he makes him self out to be, other people, like you for example might see it in a diffent way.

And this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Mike "freaks out" for comic effect. There is no psychological metanarrative about self-esteem compensation here, outside of one that is purely fabricated. The writers make Mike out that way to evoke some laughs from their audience.

As to whether this "freak out" behavior is genuine or simply a ruse on Mike's part, we really can't say. No matter what anybody pretends to do with this character analysis, we just don't have that much information on the character, due primarily to the nature of the medium (it is a Saturday morning cartoon, after all). You can't justify it is genuine fear anymore than I can justify its a half-hearted act. The truth of the matter is the "text" offers very little depth into the characters.

Although, when it comes to the Battle Nexus match against Raph, I would argue it definitely was a ruse. He deliberately manipulated and misdirected his brother to gain a tactical advantage

good point. I never thought that Mikey might have been faking him out to get him to lower his gaurd. I've always thought it was weird that Mikey was able to genuanly beat Raph in Meet Casey Jones but was so afraid of him in the Big Brawl episodes. I thought that maybe his near run in with a lead pipe had scared him from wanting to fight Raph head on ever again. Mikey has always struck me as some one who fights by out manuvring his opponant. Is that what you belive he did here in the Big Brawl?

[oldshreddersgirl]

I think all of the turtles are cute and funny even now as i watch the newer TMNT cartoons but i have to say my favorite character is the shredder (the old one)he rules!

[poobone]

Originally Posted by oldshreddersgirl

I think all of the turtles are cute and funny even now as i watch the newer TMNT cartoons but i have to say my favorite character is the shredder (the old one)he rules!

what? the old shredder was a coward. He let Bebop and Rocksteady do all the work, and he just whined to Krang over and over.

If you put the old Shredder against the 2k3 Oroku Saki, the old shredder would get creamed.