Leo vs Raph - Outcome

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Nightwatcher

I think Raph just wants to lead by example along with not being led by someone else. He doesn't want to be told when to go into a battle and when he decides to he wants his brothers to back him up. He knows he would have his brothers back whenever they went into a battle, so it's hard for him to understand why Leo would try to dissuade him or Don and Mike from doing what Raph thinks is right. Raph takes it personally when Leo questions him or his motives, especially in front of other people; and Leo takes it personally when Raph goes against him when Don and Mikey are willing to stay in line, especially in his movie representation.

This being said it makes Don's role in the group more important. He usually can keep a cool head in most situations. Plus, he seemed to be the guy who looked after Mikey (at least in the movie). I mean how many times did Leo talk directly to Mikey in the new movie? Leo's leadership seems to be geared towards being more disciplined than the others and giving out Splinter's directions during missions. Don's leadership seems to be more about keeping cool when one of three things is happening (Raph is getting mad/wanting to do his own thing, Leo is getting a bit smug/getting mad at Raph, or Mikey is losing sight of the seriousness of the situation).

I think someone could argue that Don is the "true" leader of the group. He just doesn't seem to care about the title of leader compared to actually leading. What do you expect from the smartest turtle though?

One last mention of Don. Who do you think each turtle would go to if they wanted to talk to someone because they were having a problem (besides Splinter). Raph would go to Don because he doesn't like to be led by Leo. Leo would go to Don because he respects his intelligence more than the other turtles seem to do. I think Mikey would because I don't necessarily think that he feels his problems would be important enough for Leo or Raph to really want to help deal with.

The more I talk about Don the more I like him. He is quickly becoming my number 2 turtle behind Raph.

I don't really think that Don is the leader, but I do think that he is sort of the "glue" of the team, because of the reasons you said. I think he would be a good person to "go to" for any of the Turtles, although I think that Raph might at times go to Mikey.

Who does Don go to, though? Leo?

[Nightwatcher]

Originally Posted by Rooish

I don't really think that Don is the leader, but I do think that he is sort of the "glue" of the team, because of the reasons you said. I think he would be a good person to "go to" for any of the Turtles, although I think that Raph might at times go to Mikey.

Who does Don go to, though? Leo?

Don invents a robot of himself and then talks to it. Really depending on the problem I could see Don going to any of them.

I'll buy that he is the glue of the team. He and Leo seem like the most level headed, but the new movie Leo took him away from that level-headedness for awhile.

[Willis]

Originally Posted by Nightwatcher

Don invents a robot of himself and then talks to it. Really depending on the problem I could see Don going to any of them.

I'll buy that he is the glue of the team. He and Leo seem like the most level headed, but the new movie Leo took him away from that level-headedness for awhile.

Yeah, Leo and Don have a balance to be level headed... Raph and Mikey are like extremes of each way (but both can be very level headed). Its crazy but it forms balance.

I was glad Splinters line about strengths and weakness was spoken to Don, because I think he would be the turtle who could grasp it the most and then paraphrase it to everyone else.

Plus like you guys Don is like the glue.. everyone listens to Don. If no then well, Don could act like Leo and pull out the "I'm smarter then you!" line.. heaven knows he'd pull out a CPT/ACT/SAT and watch the other turtles weep.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Willis

Yeah, Leo and Don have a balance to be level headed... Raph and Mikey are like extremes of each way (but both can be very level headed). Its crazy but it forms balance.

I was glad Splinters line about strengths and weakness was spoken to Don, because I think he would be the turtle who could grasp it the most and then paraphrase it to everyone else.

Plus like you guys Don is like the glue.. everyone listens to Don. If no then well, Don could act like Leo and pull out the "I'm smarter then you!" line.. heaven knows he'd pull out a CPT/ACT/SAT and watch the other turtles weep.

OMG. You just gave a great discription of a good scene to come in the sequel.

I can see it now, Raph and Leo are arguing again. Leo pulls out his "I'm better than you!" line, and here comes peacemaker Donny trying to solve an intricate mathematics problem. WHAM on the heads of Raph and Leo with the bo staff, and Donny going "And I'm smarter than the both of you, so shut up!"

[Daunt]

That fight really made the movie for me. Their conflict is such a well balanced emotional twist, it was great to see it pushed to the point of blows in the movie. I'm -very-glad Raph won simply because the impact of the scene was tremendous because of it. It knocked sense into both him and Leo it seems.

Ahhh, now I want to go watch the movie again.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

^I saw the movie again, and the fight seemed even better

[Daunt]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

^I saw the movie again, and the fight seemed even better

Curses, I was hoping to hold out until the weekend, I may not be able to! >_>;

[CudleyCowlick]

I voted that Raph deserved to win, but perhaps "deserved" isn't the right word. There's no question in my mind that the two of them are equally skilled and evenly matched, but it would be tough for Leo to take Raph down, he just doesn't have it in him. Sure, if Raph was upset enough to slip up, Leo might find an opening, but would he press it?

No, I think Mr. Arctic is right, Leo was making a point. Raph would kick Leo's ass in an all-out fight, but that's why Leo is the better leader, because he knows that approach does not always work. I think the whole conflict was handled very well except for one thing, Leo didn't realize the Night Watcher was Raph until the mask came off! Bullspit! He should have been able to figure it out BEFORE he met up with him on the roof. It didn't take Casey so long.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by CrazyCowboyDion

I voted that Raph deserved to win, but perhaps "deserved" isn't the right word. There's no question in my mind that the two of them are equally skilled and evenly matched, but it would be tough for Leo to take Raph down, he just doesn't have it in him. Sure, if Raph was upset enough to slip up, Leo might find an opening, but would he press it?

No, I think Mr. Arctic is right, Leo was making a point. Raph would kick Leo's ass in an all-out fight, but that's why Leo is the better leader, because he knows that approach does not always work. I think the whole conflict was handled very well except for one thing, Leo didn't realize the Night Watcher was Raph until the mask came off! Bullspit! He should have been able to figure it out BEFORE he met up with him on the roof. It didn't take Casey so long.

This line of thinking has me wondering. What if one of the Turtles other than Leo, went truly evil. Went to the darkside of the moon. Would Leo have what it takes to bring a stop to it?

[Willis]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

This line of thinking has me wondering. What if one of the Turtles other than Leo, went truly evil. Went to the darkside of the moon. Would Leo have what it takes to bring a stop to it?

Hmm.. *sits for a minute and tricks himself into thinking that was remotely possible*

I think not. All honesty I think he would try, maybe disarm and disable to the best of his abilities... but if it required a final blow he could not.

I wager it would either require the crazed turtle to somehow do themselves in, or Splinter to oversee what's best for the family yet again.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Willis

Hmm.. *sits for a minute and tricks himself into thinking that was remotely possible*

I think not. All honesty I think he would try, maybe disarm and disable to the best of his abilities... but if it required a final blow he could not.

I wager it would either require the crazed turtle to somehow do themselves in, or Splinter to oversee what's best for the family yet again.

I can't remember if this was from the cartoon or one of the comics, but wasn't there some snipit that had Splinter become rabid, and Leo was sent to put his life to an end, but after some struggle, Splinter actually accidentally tripped and fell upon Leo's sword? I'm not sure where I saw this. But it's like Leo didn't have it in him, but fate decided to take care of the ugly deed for him.

Or maybe I imagined it. Won't be the first. The Turtles and their atmosphere are so well drawn out and speculated, it's not hard to visualize a story, and get it mixed up as canon.

[Rockzero]

I voted Raph as well. Yeah, Leo's "I'm better than you" line was a little much...for someone who is supposed to be the leader, that was a pretty immature thing to say. But then again, they are teenage mutant ninja turtles.

Anyway, kind of echoing what others have said, I feel Raph is the better fighter, and Leonardo is the better leader.

[The Shelf]

Originally Posted by Rockzero

I voted Raph as well. Yeah, Leo's "I'm better than you" line was a little much...for someone who is supposed to be the leader, that was a pretty immature thing to say. But then again, they are teenage mutant ninja turtles.

Anyway, kind of echoing what others have said, I feel Raph is the better fighter, and Leonardo is the better leader.

Oh, come on man. I thought it had already been decided here that Leo said that line intentionally to aggravate Raph knowing that it was the only way to get Raph to work off his anger. Leo doesn't really think he's better than Raph, and that's precisely what he had been trying to show Raph the whole time, but he wouldn't listen. Provoking Raph to fight him was the only way to show Raph how much his anger was getting in the way of things. That line Leo said was one of the most mature and responsible things he could have done in that particular situation. It ended the arguments once and for all so the two could get on with their lives. Leo knew that's what they needed to do.

Having said that, I don't think Leo expected to be beaten. At the end of the fight, he knew Raph had the advantage when they locked weapons, but I don't think he expected Raph to actually break his swords. He certainly didn't expect to be pinned down in that manner.

I still think Raph and Leo are equal fighters, but Raph will always win over Leo in a fight because he's willing to be more ruthless whereas Leo will always hold back to avoid hurting Raph.

On a side note, I love how Raph snapped Leo's swords. That's precisely how sais should be used against sword fighters, and I never expected a ninja turtles movie or cartoon to accurately portray that.

[Rockzero]

Originally Posted by The Shelf

Oh, come on man. I thought it had already been decided here that Leo said that line intentionally to aggravate Raph knowing that it was the only way to get Raph to work off his anger. Leo doesn't really think he's better than Raph, and that's precisely what he had been trying to show Raph the whole time, but he wouldn't listen. Provoking Raph to fight him was the only way to show Raph how much his anger was getting in the way of things. That line Leo said was one of the most mature and responsible things he could have done in that particular situation. It ended the arguments once and for all so the two could get on with their lives. Leo knew that's what they needed to do.

I guess I remember the scene differently. I'll have to watch it again. And while I do think Leonardo is a great leader, I don't really know if he intended that ultimate outcome by saying that. To me it seemed more of a case of getting angry, losing your state of calm and saying things you don't mean out of frustration. While I do agree with what you said about the ultimate outcome (though I'm not sure there will ever be an end "once and for all" to the Leo vs. Raph subplot/idea) , I'm just not sure if I believe that he thought out what he was saying.

And the rest of your post summed up my additional thoughts exactly.

I'll have to watch the scene again...darn, an excuse to go see the movie.

[The Shelf]

Originally Posted by Rockzero

I guess I remember the scene differently. I'll have to watch it again. And while I do think Leonardo is a great leader, I don't really know if he intended that ultimate outcome by saying that. To me it seemed more of a case of getting angry, losing your state of calm and saying things you don't mean out of frustration. While I do agree with what you said about the ultimate outcome (though I'm not sure there will ever be an end "once and for all" to the Leo vs. Raph subplot/idea) , I'm just not sure if I believe that he thought out what he was saying.

And the rest of your post summed up my additional thoughts exactly.

I'll have to watch the scene again...darn, an excuse to go see the movie.

I dunno, that's just how I interpreted it when I first heard it. I've only seen the movie once (it stinks being a poor college student!). I certainly agree that Leo didn't plan the ultimate outcome from the beginning, and he probably didn't even plan out specifically what he was saying. Like I said, I think he only wanted to provoke Raph because he knew it was the only way to get through to him. Raph thought all along that Leo thought he was better than Raph. By saying it out in the open even though he didn't feel that way about himself, Leo essentially gave Raph an excuse to finally release all the steam he had been building up.

Also, perhaps I exaggerated when I said "once and for all." I still think Leo and Raph will always argue because they do have two very different ways of handling things, but Raph finally saw his own faults and why he wasn't better suited than Leo to be the leader. So in a sense it was "once and for all," though they will still quarrel over things forever. I wrote a much longer post on my views of all the turtles over in this thread that gives a little more insight into how I see Leo and Raph's relationship.

I dunno, I just can't see Leo ever saying that he was better than any of the other turtles which is why I interpreted the scene this way.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

I just thought that the scene showed that Leo wasn't the quote 'perfect' guy. Like some have said him and Raph are more similar to each other than they both realize. Like when Leo was saying things like 'Why do we need Raph anyway...' etc. while Donny said 'Okay Leo, nobody was talking about him.'

I think the fight was more of showing that Raph won, but with his anger which almost cost his brother Leo's life. He won...yet he lost, that type of thing.

On a side note, I know that the MTV Movie Awards has the "Best Fight" category. It's too bad this scene/fight couldn't be nominated cause it deserves to not only be nominated but win as well. Just my two cents on the matter.

[Nightwatcher]

Originally Posted by The Shelf

I dunno, I just can't see Leo ever saying that he was better than any of the other turtles which is why I interpreted the scene this way.

I could see him saying that to Raph but not the other two. It doesn't seem like Don and Mikey really care all that much about being "better" than anyone else.

Leo was pretty mad at Raph at the time. Like during the scene where Don and April are talking about Winters, the monsters, and the planets aligning and Leo just busts out with how mad he is at Raph. I think he said it to make Raph mad and because he actually believed it.

I don't think he would have said it in any other situation, but he was stressed out and was fed up with Raph so he was just trying to put him in his place.

[Daunt]

That line was actually my favorite from the entire movie. It's like...Leo said the ONE thing they'd both been thinking but hadn't said.

It seems like Raph always had on his mind, "He thinks he's better than me, he's not!" and Leo alternately thinking, "He thinks he's above everyones rules, he's not, I'm a better fighter, I'm more honorable than him. I do whats right, I'm better than him."

So it was like Leo saying the one thing they were both thinking lit the very short fuse of anger between them.

Anyways, thats just my thoughts on it. I love that line and I am not so sure Leo said it on purpose, I think he was just super angry...

Ahhh, man. No second viewing until this weekend, I am so sad.

[SavantiRomero]

I just don't agree with the comment by people that Raph is a better/equal fighter to Leo. Leo has always been portrayed as the better fighter/practitioner. Raph has always been portrayed as more of a scrapper/brawler.

Alot happened in that scene, like Leo being taken by surprise. I'm more sure Leo was holding back, his performance dropped several scales from when he believed he was just fighting the Nightwatcher. When he realized he was fighting his brother he backed off. He didn't even want to fight. Raph forced him to.

It looked more to me like Leo gave Raph the opportunity to end the fight. Everyone "should" know that Sai's will beat swords when that position is attained, and I think Leo purposely gave it to Raph to wake him up. It even looked to me, at least, like Leo helped Raph break his swords to see if he'd go that far.

Of course that's just my opinion.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by SavantiRomero

I just don't agree with the comment by people that Raph is a better/equal fighter to Leo. Leo has always been portrayed as the better fighter/practitioner. Raph has always been portrayed as more of a scrapper/brawler.

Alot happened in that scene, like Leo being taken by surprise. I'm more sure Leo was holding back, his performance dropped several scales from when he believed he was just fighting the Nightwatcher. When he realized he was fighting his brother he backed off. He didn't even want to fight. Raph forced him to.

It looked more to me like Leo gave Raph the opportunity to end the fight. Everyone "should" know that Sai's will beat swords when that position is attained, and I think Leo purposely gave it to Raph to wake him up. It even looked to me, at least, like Leo helped Raph break his swords to see if he'd go that far.

Of course that's just my opinion.

I always heard that Leo, in most mediums tends to be the better fighter, in terms that he has the discipline and dedication to the art, but if Raphael and Mikey were to get their focus, they could easily out do Leo. Raph is just raw power, and Mikey has incredible speed and athletism that cna't be matched, no matter how Leo trains.

But Leo is so good, because he is a good mixture of different traits, I just don't see him having the talent of Raph and Mikey. But he more than makes up for it in his maturity and focus.

But this is my opinion.

And I'm not hating on Don. But Don never seemed to be as strong as a fighter as the other three. But with his brain, he doesn't have to. Too bad he can't attend MIT, I'd bet he would be smashing records and become a household name!