Leo vs Raph - Outcome

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Originally Posted by jenna

Leo could never have won this battle for the pure a simple fact that Leonardo is level headed and can control his temper. He does not get lost in his own rage. He was making a conscious effort to fight with gusto but at the same time to not hurt his brother.

Raphael on the other hand, as we have seen in many different occassions, gets so lost in his anger that he loses control of himself. How many times has he nearly killed out of rage (ie Mikey in 2k3 / vol 1 - that was over sparring for crying out loud and his battle with Leo is 18 years of anger and repressed feelings of being the least loved child coming out - pretty big stuff). When Raphael is angry there is something so frightening about how he loses himself - it is almost like a dissasociative psychosis (I'm not saying that he is psychotic, just that his anger is really extreme).

completely agreed.

before revealing himself as raph, leo had no trouble knocking the nightwatcher around. but after knowing that he was fighting his own brother, i think he controlled his rage to a point where he tried to fight the battle that couldn't be stopped all the while avoiding to cause serious injury to his bro. raph on the other hand was channeling his wrath and disapproval of leo entirely into his strength - something he excels at. which is why at the end, after leo's swords snapped, raph came to a realization that his outburst of anger could have resulted in something tragic.

raph has the upperhand in brute force, but theoretically leo would be the better fighter, as in more rounded and having a deeper understanding an appreciation for ninjutsu/bushido as well as the ability to control his emotions.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by bulletdance

completely agreed.

before revealing himself as raph, leo had no trouble knocking the nightwatcher around. but after knowing that he was fighting his own brother, i think he controlled his rage to a point where he tried to fight the battle that couldn't be stopped all the while avoiding to cause serious injury to his bro. raph on the other hand was channeling his wrath and disapproval of leo entirely into his strength - something he excels at. which is why at the end, after leo's swords snapped, raph came to a realization that his outburst of anger could have resulted in something tragic.

raph has the upperhand in brute force, but theoretically leo would be the better fighter, as in more rounded and having a deeper understanding an appreciation for ninjutsu/bushido as well as the ability to control his emotions.

Out of curosity, if you had to be in a fight with Leo or Raph, who would you choose to go up against?

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Originally Posted by Warhorse

Out of curosity, if you had to be in a fight with Leo or Raph, who would you choose to go up against?

im smarter than that so i'll go with neither.

but really, probably raph. whatever the outcome, at least it'd be quick.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by bulletdance

im smarter than that so i'll go with neither.

but really, probably raph. whatever the outcome, at least it'd be quick.

You think he'd be quick? He seemed to have fun going after those burglars as the Nightwatcher.

[bullet]

the circumstances aren't clear enough for me to answer that completely. if i didn't commit any crimes, i don't see why he would do that. if it's just a fight to the death, i'd be for honor. in that case i wouldn't be running away then, would i?

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by bulletdance

the circumstances aren't clear enough for me to answer that completely. if i didn't commit any crimes, i don't see why he would do that. if it's just a fight to the death, i'd be for honor. in that case i wouldn't be running away then, would i?

What about just a little squabble, or tournament type battle?

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if death isn't involved, then definitely raph. more fun that way.

who would you fight?

[esco]

Leo wanted to win? Against who? Raph or Nightwatcher? IMO, he didn't even want to fight Raph, but felt compelled to teach a lesson because he is the leader and Raph, like Don said, is the cause of contention, so he "fought" and "lost" to teach the lesson... so how could he have wanted to win the physical battle? That wouldn't have helped.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by esco

Leo wanted to win? Against who? Raph or Nightwatcher? IMO, he didn't even want to fight Raph, but felt compelled to teach a lesson because he is the leader and Raph, like Don said, is the cause of contention, so he "fought" and "lost" to teach the lesson... so how could he have wanted to win the physical battle? That wouldn't have helped.

Well, both Raphael and Leonardo were cause for contention. Raphael was getting on Leonardo for neglecting his family for a year, and Leonardo was getting on Raphael for risking his family's life by working out in the open. They both had a lesson to learn. And I could tell from their facial expressions during the fight that both were in to win, but neither would go so far as to kill each other. Although Leonardo almost accidently killed Raphael when he thrust his sword forward at his face, but Raphael dodged it; and after Raphael pinned Leonardo down, he stabbed his sai in the roof next to Leonardo's face, but then backed off and ran away.

[esco]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Although Leonardo almost accidently killed Raphael when he thrust his sword forward at his face, but Raphael dodged it;

Raph didn't dodge it. Leo missed on purpose. The first time I saw the movie I thought he dodged too.

[Shark_Blade]

Leo wouldn't hurt his brother that's why.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by esco

Raph didn't dodge it. Leo missed on purpose. The first time I saw the movie I thought he dodged too.

Yeah, it was more like a threat than an attempt to slit his throat.

[Revan]

^ The fight should have been over at this point when leo thrust his katana upon raph's shoulder. had it been a real enemy, would Leo have missed?

Also, Leo knocked nightwatcher down earlier. So Leo gets two 'points' before raph gets his first 'point'.

Leo - 2
raph - 1

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by esco

Raph didn't dodge it. Leo missed on purpose. The first time I saw the movie I thought he dodged too.

Remember in Shredder Strikes 1, when Leonardo flipped Raphael over the roof? He could've almost killed him there too, and might've if Raphael hadn't stuck his sai in the wall and saved himself. And remember when he cut splinter's head in Ancient One? Splinter got lucky since it wasn't a fatal cut. Leonardo has come close to killing someone without actually intending to do so.
And it wasn't aimed at his throat; the sword didn't come as a slash from the side or downward onto the shoulder; the sword was thrust forward point-first at his face.

[esco]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Remember in Shredder Strikes 1, when Leonardo flipped Raphael over the roof? He could've almost killed him there too, and might've if Raphael hadn't stuck his sai in the wall and saved himself. And remember when he cut splinter's head in Ancient One? Splinter got lucky since it wasn't a fatal cut. Leonardo has come close to killing someone without actually intending to do so.

Well, IMO, 2k3 Leo and TMNT Leo aren't exactly the same... especially 2k3's "dark" Leo. But I see your point, but I also have to say that this doesn't necessarily mean Leo couldn't have purposely missed.

And it wasn't aimed at his throat; the sword didn't come as a slash from the side or downward onto the shoulder; the sword was thrust forward point-first at his face.

It wasn't aimed at the face. I've seen it 3 times in theaters and have seen the fight scene I don't know how many times by other means and frame-by-frame. The tip of the sword is past Raph's head before Raph even reacts. The expression of Raph's face and angle of his head after-wards, was more like "Damn, that blade is close... and I'm unprotected", he was shocked. Also, the camera slightly moves away from Raph giving the impression that he moved back and away a little, but he barely moves at all. And most of his movement is after Leo's arm is fully extended.

[Cassidy]

Dang... this topic just keeps going and going and going.

Anyway, I asked my sister (who isn't all that interested in TMNT, but I dragged her to see it anyway) who won. Her answer was:
"Leo won the first round. Raph won the second."

Just 'cause their sharp and pointy doesent make them superior.

For some reason, a Zorro quote came to mind when I read that.

Diego: Do you know how to use that thing?
Alejandro: Of course! The pointy end goes into the other man.
Diego: This going to take a lot of work.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by esco

Raph didn't dodge it. Leo missed on purpose. The first time I saw the movie I thought he dodged too.

I dissagree with you. There is no proof that Leo did that on purpose. He lost himself in the battle like Raph did, it's just Raph has more experience fighting in this manner and easily overpowerd Leo.!

[Shark_Blade]

No he's not lost. You can see in his eyes he's still aware of his surrounding and not absorb with the fight too much. Raph eyes are full of determination,he wants to beat Leo so much.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

No he's not lost. You can see in his eyes he's still aware of his surrounding and not absorb with the fight too much. Raph eyes are full of determination,he wants to beat Leo so much.

I still dissagree. Not only was Leo aiming towards Raph's head, Leo was also slashing towards Raph's arms! If Raph wasn;t so good at blocking. he could have been limbless now.

He used strategy to beat the Nightwatcher. But then Raphael was revealed, they had an argument, and Leo threw out that "I'm better than you!" Which I think was not a calculated move. I think Leo had had it with Raph, and wanted to put him in his place once and for all.

But Leo went about it the wrong way. He started to use force and muscle instead of his head. And unfortunately for Leo, Raph's force and muscle are far more greater. Now, if Leo was in more control he might have stood a chance, but I will agree with you, in that Raph went completely beserk, and I always thought that when Raph sees red, he's unstopable.

ALso, I have the novel to help back me up, where you do get the Turtles point of view. In the first fight, Raph was stunned that he lost to Leo.

But in the second fight, Leo was shocked that he had just lost to Raph.

Originally Posted by bulletdance

if death isn't involved, then definitely raph. more fun that way.

who would you fight?

I'm not sure who I would want to duel with for fun. Probably Leo, I don't have to worry about him potentially going completly mad on me!

[esco]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

I dissagree with you. There is no proof that Leo did that on purpose. He lost himself in the battle like Raph did, it's just Raph has more experience fighting in this manner and easily overpowerd Leo.!

True there is no proof that he missed on purpose, but there is also no proof that he was lost in battle. Even after the little argument between round 1 and 2, he was calm enough to ask/tell Raph not to fight him, and had his swords at his sides (not exactly ready to blindly charge in, IMO) until Raph made a move.

But even if he didn't miss on purpose, Raphael still didn't dodge it... Leo just straight up missed.

But missed purposely in my eyes.