Raph vs. Leo - SPOILERS INSIDE

[Janus Prospero]

If it may please the court, I'd like to give my interpretation of the Raph vs Leo fight. First of all, let me start off by saying that Raphael is flat out my favorite turtle, so obviously deep down I wanted him to win this fight. However, I did like Leonardo more in this movie than I have in any of the previous turtle incarnations. (I think it really helps that he's voiced by JAT, whom I have been a big fan of ever since he started voicing Ratchet in the Ratchet & Clank games.) Anyway, with that out of the way, I'm going to attempt to broach this subject with as much objectivity and as little bias as possible. So if anyone is a devout Raph or Leo fan, please read my whole post before responding to it. I feel like I give a fair analysis, but I have a lot of points to make.

Anyway, here is my theory.

I believe Raph beat Leo. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. He smoked him. Leo did not "let Raph win," and I don't even think Leo held back either (although I might concede that they both may have held back initially). I have several reasons for coming to this conclusion.

#1) Director, Kevin Munroe himself said in an interview that this movie settles the Raph VS Leo debate. So why all the debate after the movie? By his statement, I think Occam's razor tells us that Raph won (at least in his eyes.) And since he wrote the script, he's the highest authority as far as I'm concerned.

#2) This isn't the first time Raph has beat Leo. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, in the Mirage Volume 1 comics, Issue # 19 (Return to New York, Part 1) Raph and Leo got into a brawl, which ended by Raph throwing Leo through the wall knocking him out.

#3) In the movie novelization, it reads, "Leonardo was not thinking of what Raphael had come so close to doing, but that Raphael had beaten him." I know that's not the best justification, but at least it's there. It's showing that he wasn't expecting to lose, so he was definitely putting forward some effort (at least in the novel's universe.)

#4) And this is the one that I think really sells it for me. Both Leo and Raph clearly learn something by the end of this movie. In the beginning, neither brother thought they needed each other. Leo thought Raph was merely a hindrance to his team and was more of a liability than anything. Raph thought he was better off on his own and his brother was just trying to hold him back. So what happens? They fight. Raph loses control and almost takes Leo out. They both realize their mistake and in the end they reconcile. Raphael accepts Leonardo as the one to lead them to victory, and Leo recognizes Raph as an invaluable member of his team. Anyway, my point is, if Leo had thrown the fight, he wouldn't really have learned anything! He would have continued to think that he didn't really need Raph. He would have been all, "My wise plan to get Raph to follow me worked." But that isn't the case! I 100% agree with the poster that said that forfeiting the fight in lieu of teaching a lesson is a Splinter thing. Leonardo is in no way there yet.

Of course...I could be completely wrong. At any rate, we'll all just have to wait for the DVD commentary.

With that out of the way, I'd like to do my best to settle the "My turtle is better than your turtle thing."

For those of you still not convinced, just play along with me and let's just assume Raph beat Leo fairly in combat. Does that mean Raph is straight up better than Leo? No, of course not. One of the main themes of this movie is that each turtle has strengths and weaknesses, and it is only as a family unit that their true strengths are realized. I like to think of the Raph/Leo thing as an analogy to the game Rock, Paper, Scissors. Sure, rock breaks scissors, but that doesn't make rock better than scissors. Because as we all know Scissors > Paper > Rock and so on and so forth.

If you're confused by this, allow me to flesh it out further. Each turtle has their own style and personality. This becomes very apparent in every aspect of their lives, even when they are fighting. For example, Leo is usually very calm, collected, and focused while Raph is gritting his teeth, grunting, and basically going berserk.

Now, I can name 3 instances across two TMNT universes in which Mikey has beaten Raph in a fight of some sort: Mirage Raphael #1 comic, the 2003 Cartoon episode "Meet Casey Jones" (which is based on the Raphael comic), and the 2003 cartoon episode "Big Brawl, Part 3". Despite this, I think it would be a hard sell to insinuate that Mikey is on the whole a better warrior than Raph. So, how did Mikey beat Raph then? Well in each of the above instances basically Michelangelo agitated Raph to the point where he got under his skin and he was so annoyed that he couldn't even fight properly. Also, it probably didn't help that Mike is the most dexterous of the turtles and kept dodging Raph's attacks as he was mocking him. So while Mikey may not be the better warrior, the way he deals with sparring with Raph is in such a way that it allows him to come out on top. This tactic would obviously not work as well against Leo, who would probably brush off Mikey's taunts.

Now my argument is this. Raph beat Leo because Raph and his insubordination agitates his brother. During their confrontation, I think dealing with Raph causes Leo himself became ticked off! Leo got angry and became unbalanced. He was no longer his calm and collected self. He was fighting in uncharted territory. He was in Raphael's realm and that's why he lost.

Next time you see the movie, pay attention to the entire scene. When Leo was engaged in battle with the Nightwatcher, both he and Raph each exhibited their own distinct fighting mind set (calm VS angry.) But what happens after the big reveal when Leo finds out it's Raph under the helmet? Well, they argue and things get a little heated. Despite being fairly agitated, I think Leo is still mostly under control with his cold, "I'm better than you" and how he urges Raph not to fight him. But after they both start fighting it looks like they're both really into it. It's not just Raph attacking Leo and Leo deflecting the blow. Leo himself is taking swipes at Raph with his blade. In at one point Leo even charges Raph, rather than letting Raph come to him. How is that fighting defensively at all? They are both caught up in the moment, blinded by their own rage, and not even realizing how close they're coming to killing each other. That's why Leo misses Raph's head when he thrusts his blade at him. A lot of people have come to me and used that particular action as justification for why Leo is holding back through the entire fight. They say that Leo is just trying to scare Raph, but to me that is the only sign that Leo might be holding back. I'm going to need more than that to be convinced. It's not like Leo is some God of a swordsman that never misses or anything...

Unfortunately for Leo, rage is what works for Raph and...well you've seen the movie, you know what happens. And just look at the expression on Leo's face after Raph snaps his swords and then almost stabs him in the head. Clearly something he was not expecting.

So, that is my interpretation of how it all went down. You don't have to agree with me, but I've thought about this for a long time, so I feel like it at least makes sense. Hope it wasn't a case of TLDR.

[Seiza]

Originally Posted by aabxx

But at least, he's shown off as the leader type and the most disciplined.

First off, thanks for answering my question. While he could have been portrayed as the best fighter in the OT (I'm sure there are those who disagree with your list), I wouldn't be surprised if writers try to tone that down and/or give the title to Raph in later mediums. Not because Raph has a killer fanbase (...maybe... *dodges bricks* ) but because being the best fighter isn't necessarily required to be a leader--stuff like discipline, maintaining a calm head and such are.

Also, Leo is already the leader and a devoted student. If you include "best fighter", "always right" etc. to his resume, he becomes very Gary Stuish.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Well, that part is. They all care about the "warrior code" and doing the right thing. Why else would they always be risking their lives for each other and for other innocents?
Splinter raised them all to live honorably, and that's what they do.
No offense to anyone, but anyone who says ALL the turtles aren't actual "warriors" or don't all follow the "warrior code", that's a load of bull****.

I think they're all warriors and have honour and such, but Leo is shown to be the only one who actively studies/knows about the Bushido code and its history (don't think I've heard Raph ever quote Miyamoto Musashi).

It's like not everyone who respects their parents, doesn't lie, doesn't steal and doesn't murder is a Christian who obeys the Ten Commandments. Those principles could simply be a product of their upbringing, just like Raph, Don and Mike could have picked up on honour/courage/what-have-you through Splinter's own teachings. But in terms of consciously following a code of conduct, it's Leo and Bushido.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

But rather than wanting to deal with Raph and work through his flaws in order to form a unified team, Leo believes the team would be better off without Raphael. As is exhibited later in the movie when he says, "What do we need Raph for anyway? He's the one that's always jeopardizing our missions!"

I'm still wondering what exactly made Leo start thinking the team could work separately. Was it the time alone travelling? Because, you know, you'd think after working together for so long (that's quite a stash they have in that trophy room), the teamwork would be deeply entrenched in their thinking.

Hmm... Well, Raph storms out and does a solo-vigilante gig, but that's Raph (not to mention the circumstances that led to it, etc). But Leo? I'm not thinking so much what he said about Raph, although that's also an example (but I could see him letting that out due to frustration)--moreso what he said to April in the beginning of the movie.

Have you ever argued with a friend, and the argument got a little heated? Eventually, you said something that you later regretted, and since you were friends with that person the thing you said really stung because you knew the person and you knew what you said was really going to hurt them?

Yeah, someone did suggest this earlier too, and I think it's very realistic. They've both lived together and butted heads for so long, they know what hurts the other. And when you're more pissed than you've been for a long time, you don't think twice about using it.

Anyway, my point is, if Leo had thrown the fight, he wouldn't really have learned anything! He would have continued to think that he didn't really need Raph. He would have been all, "My wise plan to get Raph to follow me worked." But that isn't the case! I 100% agree with the poster that said that forfeiting the fight in lieu of teaching a lesson is a Splinter thing. Leonardo is in no way there yet.

I don't think Leo threw the fight--otherwise, he must be a very good actor, because he sure seemed really pissed off to me. XD

Raph might've started out with some self-control, but it's clear from his expression by the end that he's completely lost it and aimed to kill. On the other hand, I felt Leo went in wanting to win and stayed at that level of intensity--that's what I mean by "holding back", anyway.

Also, on a purely emotional level, the idea that Leo would throw the fight when his brother is going at it so thoroughly just kills something in that scene, IMHO. It's no longer two brothers baring their souls to each other; it's one being manipulated by the other.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

I've thought long and hard about why Leo says this. I must admit that when I first saw the movie I thought it was a bit out of character. And after seeing the movie five times, I still think it's out of character. It's super arrogant, which I don't think Leo ostensibly is. I think Leo may think that he's the better fighter amongst his brothers, but it's not something he would ever gloat about or hang over their heads. Now, as to why he said this, here is what I think: Have you ever argued with a friend, and the argument got a little heated? Eventually, you said something that you later regretted, and since you were friends with that person the thing you said really stung because you knew the person and you knew what you said was really going to hurt them? I think this is what happened in this situation. I think that the argument between him and Raph just angered Leo so much, that it caused him to say something that he knows him and Raph have been thinking all these years. That's why it is so out of character. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me.

This is what I saw. It was a slip up between two brothers having this heated arguement. I don't think Leo was doing anything on purpose. It was just a fight that escaladed completely out of control. In the end, both realized how blind they are to problems that right in front of their faces. Raph got a reality check in his anger management, Leo got a reality check not to underestimate his brothers.

I think what screwing things up, is that the 2k3 toon has been the most recent adaptation of the Turtles next to this movie. Fans of the 2k3 have almost been conditioned to automatically think Leo will always win a fight or a sparring match with his brothers. I don't like saying this, but the 2k3 toon tends to over do it with super Leo. He does have his flaws in the 2k3 toon. I actually find him to be too trusting to a serious fault, to the point where he almost nearly gets himself killed, twice! But there are one on one battles that went to Leo being the victorious, when I think it would have been more balancing for one of the other Turtles to take the glory. And Leo's swords being able to slice through anything. I've worked with swords. They are not sharp enough to slice through metal chain like butter.

But this movie is a different incarnation from the 2k3 toon. It's going to paint it's on it's own canvas. Leo has major flaws (and these flaws have made this incarnation my favorite Leo yet) Raph does get his ass handed to him. He shrugs it off, get's back up and goes back for more. Splinter has you questioning his tactics with Leo. (I feel more sorry for Leo when he is interracting with Splinter, than interracting with Raph. When he and Raph are arguing, it's no different then watching my own family argue) But that's my take. It was just a heated fight. More emotional than usual. But it certaintly doesn't answer the question on who is the better fighter. Not by a long shot.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

Now my argument is this. Raph beat Leo because Raph and his insubordination agitates his brother. During their confrontation, I think dealing with Raph causes Leo himself became ticked off! Leo got angry and became unbalanced. He was no longer his calm and collected self. He was fighting in uncharted territory. He was in Raphael's realm and that's why he lost.

Next time you see the movie, pay attention to the entire scene. When Leo was engaged in battle with the Nightwatcher, both he and Raph each exhibited their own distinct fighting mind set (calm VS angry.) But what happens after the big reveal when Leo finds out it's Raph under the helmet? Well, they argue and things get a little heated. Despite being fairly agitated, I think Leo is still mostly under control with his cold, "I'm better than you" and how he urges Raph not to fight him. But after they both start fighting it looks like they're both really into it. It's not just Raph attacking Leo and Leo deflecting the blow. Leo himself is taking swipes at Raph with his blade. In at one point Leo even charges Raph, rather than letting Raph come to him. How is that fighting defensively at all? They are both caught up in the moment, blinded by their own rage, and not even realizing how close they're coming to killing each other. That's why Leo misses Raph's head when he thrusts his blade at him. A lot of people have come to me and used that particular action as justification for why Leo is holding back through the entire fight. They say that Leo is just trying to scare Raph, but to me that is the only sign that Leo might be holding back. I'm going to need more than that to be convinced. It's not like Leo is some God of a swordsman that never misses or anything...

Unfortunately for Leo, rage is what works for Raph and...well you've seen the movie, you know what happens. And just look at the expression on Leo's face after Raph snaps his swords and then almost stabs him in the head. Clearly something he was not expecting.

So, that is my interpretation of how it all went down. You don't have to agree with me, but I've thought about this for a long time, so I feel like it at least makes sense. Hope it wasn't a case of TLDR.

Great post. This is how I saw it as well. Leo was using anger in the second fight, and Raph has a little more experience it this then Leo. If Leo had been in a more calmer state, I think he would have never let the situation escalate to the point it did. He would've talked to Raph, or if Raph wass till insistent on fighting, then Leo would have been the better Turtle and walk away. Walking away can be a very affective stand to a fight.

But like you said, I think Leo was just so pissed off at the world, the way his training had gone (don't forget, while Splinter may have rewarded him, in the prequel, he was still kicked out of the ninja tribunal, and that shame is one of the reasons why he didn't come home) he was pissed off at the way his family was treating him, how hw seemed to have a hard time getting a hold of the situation. And then the arguement with Raph made him snap. I think he may have been shocked with what he had just said, with the I'm Better Than You line. But I think he wanted to get the fight out of his system. But he fought angry, and lost his composure, and lost. Good thing, Raph was able to catch himself from completely flipping his lid. He has more control than people want to give him credit for.

And this fight really doesn't prove anything among the Turtles. They all bring something valuable to the table. The team would be incomplete without all four in to do their dudy.

[Seiza]

And Leo's swords being able to slice through anything. I've worked with swords. They are not sharp enough to slice through metal chain like butter.

I heard Donny also deflects lasers with his bo staff? I figure they forge their own weapons from what they find, so... yikes, the stuff those New Yorkers must throw down their sewers...

And agreed about Super Leo in the 2k3 toon. I found it pretty hard to believe when he came out on top so easily during the "whose weapon is better" scene, but eh, I reserve the right to be spoiled. Whatever the case, I feel that in the movies, the playing field is much more levelled.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Seiza

I think they're all warriors and have honour and such, but Leo is shown to be the only one who actively studies/knows about the Bushido code and its history (don't think I've heard Raph ever quote Miyamoto Musashi).

It's like not everyone who respects their parents, doesn't lie, doesn't steal and doesn't murder is a Christian who obeys the Ten Commandments. Those principles could simply be a product of their upbringing, just like Raph, Don and Mike could have picked up on honour/courage/what-have-you through Splinter's own teachings. But in terms of consciously following a code of conduct, it's Leo and Bushido.

I see what you're talking about. But all the turtles are metaphorically like Christians who follow the 10 commandments. The meaning of Bushido has somewhat differed from the way it used to be in the time period it first originated. For instance, the concept of seppuku; I doubt very much that concept is embraced nearly as much as it was back in the day. I mean, whoever it was who decided suicide had anything to do with honor must've lived in a pretty unGodly family or community. Quote from wikipedia's definition of Modern Bushido:

The warrior protects and defends because he realizes the value of others. He knows that they are essential to society and, in his gift of service, recognizes and values theirs... take the extra moment in dark parking lots at night to make sure that a woman gets into her car safely before leaving yourself. Daily involvement in acts such as these are as much a part of training as time spent in the dojo, and indeed should be the reason for that time spent training... When faced with a woman or child in a situation in which they are vulnerable, there are two types of men: those who would offer succor and aid, and those who would prey upon them. And in modern society, there is another loathsome breed who would totally ignore their plight!

Which basically sums up what the turtles have made of their own lives. They are the "men who offer succor and aid" to a society which gives them no gratitude in return. Being diligent in Bushido isn't a matter of knowing your history, being able to quote early masters/philosophers, meditation (and I've seen several situations in 2k3 where all turtles meditate), or even about how good you're skills are (and they're all good); it's a simple, commonplace matter of using the skills you have to do the right thing.

[Seiza]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Being diligent in Bushido isn't a matter of knowing your history, being able to quote early masters/philosophers, meditation (and I've seen several situations in 2k3 where all turtles meditate), or even about how good you're skills are (and they're all good); it's a simple, commonplace matter of using the skills you have to do the right thing.

Hmm... I think knowing the history and thought process is what differentiates your average guy on the street and a student of something. It's like comparing someone who reads about Freud on Wikipedia and someone who's studying for a Bachelors in Psychology.

Another example I can think of right now is how Leo treats his swords in the 2k3 toon. All the guys are proud of their chosen weapons, yeah, but it's only Leo who's shown getting upset when his swords break/get lost (...repeatedly, even ). His bond with his weapons is probably due to his study of Bushido. I've not seen that same bond being emphasised for the other turtles, to the point that it's even used as a subplot like Leo's was in the Monster Hunter episode.

And I guess one could also consider how much he harps about honour in the NT and why he's usually in good behaviour (even though you practically had to drag the "Yes, Master" outta him in the movie, Leo still went out to look for Raph as per Splinter's orders).

Of course, I'm not saying you HAVE to follow Bushido to be a good person/son. But it might explain partially why Leo's so different from his brothers.

The meaning of Bushido has somewhat differed from the way it used to be in the time period it first originated. For instance, the concept of seppuku; I doubt very much that concept is embraced nearly as much as it was back in the day.

Considering Leo's a ninja, yeah, he's probably modified his code a bit. I can just imagine a young Leo becoming enamoured by "Bushido for Dummies", studies it, only to find out later it's not for dastardly ninjas like him. The heartbreak!

I think I see what you mean, that the turtles are all following Bushido/warrior code by helping others? Perhaps Raph, Don and Mikey follow (or unknowingly follow) this Modern Bushido, but considering Leo takes the time to learn about its philosophers and the stuff mentioned above, he seems to follow an older version and takes it more personally.

I think that while Raph, Don and Mikey are good kids who act honourably and help out people, it's less to do with Bushido for them and more to do with other influences (Splinter's, TV, media, story books etc.).

[triplexxx]

Well, I'm more than sure Raphael, Michaelangelo, and Donatello "knowingly" follow Bushido as much as Leonardo does. That's the whole basis of Splinter's influence and training them: to teach them Bushido, the ways of the warrior. And that's what Donatello stated at the end of Fallen Angel, "We're the guardians of the ways of Bushido." As for the love of weapons, well, another thing Bushido isn't about. As Splinter said, may not be direct quote, "It's not the weapon that matters, but the warrior who carries it." Weapons are only as good as the warrior who carries them. Despite what some may hear, it's impossible for weapons to hold honor or glory, because the fact is they are nothing but forged shapes of wood and metal. If you see someone admiring weapons displayed as an artifacts in a museum, it's really the warriors who carried the weapons who are being honored, not the weapons themselves, even if the people admiring them don't know it.
And truth to tell, I honestly don't think Leonardo is as different from his brothers as some think he is.

Spoiler:

Remember the Lost Season, where the Tribunal chose them all, and they all called upon the spirit of the dragon together, and it was considered the "highest of honors".

And remember in Bad Day, when they all meditated to disintegrate the Foot Mystics on the spiritual plane. Also, in the first movie, it took all of them meditating to actually summon Splinter so he could communicate with them. All things considered, despite what others may say, I believe they all got pretty good meditation skills, and they're all very spiritual warriors. And the plane in which Bushido matters the most is the spiritual plane. I know there's more to the turtles, especially in 2k3, than some people think there is.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Well, I'm more than sure Raphael, Michaelangelo, and Donatello "knowingly" follow Bushido as much as Leonardo does. That's the whole basis of Splinter's influence and training them: to teach them Bushido, the ways of the warrior. And that's what Donatello stated at the end of Fallen Angel, "We're the guardians of the ways of Bushido." As for the love of weapons, well, another thing Bushido isn't about. As Splinter said, may not be direct quote, "It's not the weapon that matters, but the warrior who carries it." Weapons are only as good as the warrior who carries them. Despite what some may hear, it's impossible for weapons to hold honor or glory, because the fact is they are nothing but forged shapes of wood and metal. If you see someone admiring weapons displayed as an artifacts in a museum, it's really the warriors who carried the weapons who are being honored, not the weapons themselves, even if the people admiring them don't know it.
And truth to tell, I honestly don't think Leonardo is as different from his brothers as some think he is.

Spoiler:

Remember the Lost Season, where the Tribunal chose them all, and they all called upon the spirit of the dragon together, and it was considered the "highest of honors".

And remember in Bad Day, when they all meditated to disintegrate the Foot Mystics on the spiritual plane. Also, in the first movie, it took all of them meditating to actually summon Splinter so he could communicate with them. All things considered, despite what others may say, I believe they all got pretty good meditation skills, and they're all very spiritual warriors. And the plane in which Bushido matters the most is the spiritual plane. I know there's more to the turtles, especially in 2k3, than some people think there is.

The all follow bushido, yes. But the live aciton movie and the 2k3 series portray Leo as having the most balanced mind.

Spoiler:

Leo is first to summon his avatar in the lost season. Yes, they all eventually do it, but Leo is first.

And in the original movie, Leo is again the first to comminicate with Splinter through meditation. They all do it, but Leo figures it out and then his brothers follow him much like the avatar situation. They all have the abilities to meditate, but Leo showed them how.

[PrivateRadio]

Originally Posted by Neutrino

This is not the only line that was delivered akwardly. There were different lines throughout the film that sounded off.

Ex) Leo: "Raph if you have some you want to get off yourschell, now's the time."

he seems to run 'your' and 'shell' together and pronounces shell akwardly.

Anyway I don't agree with PR's analysis on Leo's I'm better than you but that's the beauty of opinions.

Oh yeah, I get what you're saying, I think Leo sounds like crap for that entire exchange in April's apartment, but that was just bad VA work. What I was saying though, is that the line on the rooftop sounds intentionally struggled for that specific reason.

[triplexxx]

I got you Neutrino, but even though

Spoiler:

he called upon the dragon first, the transformation didn't actually occur until New World Order 2 , and they all did it at the same time. And Splinter didn't actually fully reach the turtles until they were all meditating. It took all of their efforts to actually summon Splinter, and actually summon the dragons

and he wasn't literally showing them how to meditate in the first movie, they already knew how, he just had to get them to come outside, that's all. That they all follow Bushido, that's all I was getting across.

[Raphamel]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

If it may please the court, I'd like to give my interpretation of the Raph vs Leo fight. First of all, let me start off by saying that Raphael is flat out my favorite turtle, so obviously deep down I wanted him to win this fight. I believe Raph beat Leo. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. He smoked him. Leo did not "let Raph win," and I don't even think Leo held back either.

Raph is flat-out mine as well. I actually wanted Raph to win, but for the right reasons: I wanted them both to learn something. And they did. Leo wasn't cleared of any fault in the matter, it would make me angry too if my brother who'd left the family returned and then pretended like the last year and a half didn't happen (or worse: didn't *matter*). If Leo would have gotten the better of him in this fight, I'm sure Raph wouldn't have snapped out of his anger and would more than likely still be pissed in his Nightwatcher's suit somewhere. I like that Leo saw both the overly aggressive (which also incorporated a deep resentment from Leo's abandoning them) side of Raph and then the regretful, ashamed Raph. Leo should understand from 19 years of living with him that his brother is not just the hot-head he's always panning him out to be. Raph has layers just like you do, Leo. Always has.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

#1) Director, Kevin Munroe himself said in an interview that this movie settles the Raph VS Leo debate. So why all the debate after the movie? By his statement, I think Occam's razor tells us that Raph won (at least in his eyes.) And since he wrote the script, he's the highest authority as far as I'm concerned.

I've heard Kevin say a few times that Raphael is also his favorite. And I don't think that had an effect on the outcome of the fight, nor do I think he was trying to say that Raph would ALWAYS win, either. No one's in their top form all the time, not even the greatest of athletes. Sometimes your opponents are actually in their top form on a day when you are not. It's unrealistic for someone to win all the time, and never over the years have they shown one Turtle always winning, so I'm with you on this: Why are people so unable to believe what their own eyes show them? Leo *CAN* lose just like anyone else.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

#4) And this is the one that I think really sells it for me. Both Leo and Raph clearly learn something by the end of this movie. In the beginning, neither brother thought they needed each other. Leo thought Raph was merely a hindrance to his team and was more of a liability than anything. Raph thought he was better off on his own and his brother was just trying to hold him back. So what happens? They fight. Raph loses control and almost takes Leo out. They both realize their mistake and in the end they reconcile. Raphael accepts Leonardo as the one to lead them to victory, and Leo recognizes Raph as an invaluable member of his team. Anyway, my point is, if Leo had thrown the fight, he wouldn't really have learned anything! He would have continued to think that he didn't really need Raph. He would have been all, "My wise plan to get Raph to follow me worked." But that isn't the case! I 100% agree with the poster that said that forfeiting the fight in lieu of teaching a lesson is a Splinter thing. Leonardo is in no way there yet.

Exactly. Leo was not being appreciative of his brother or even considering the fact that "Gee, wow, Raph's upset that I'd left them so long, maybe I should tell him why and... maybe.... even apologize." I'm glad that they came to a truce... if only until the next film

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

I like to think of the Raph/Leo thing as an analogy to the game Rock, Paper, Scissors. Sure, rock breaks scissors, but that doesn't make rock better than scissors. Because as we all know Scissors > Paper > Rock and so on and so forth.

What a great analogy!

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

If you're confused by this, allow me to flesh it out further. Each turtle has their own style and personality. This becomes very apparent in every aspect of their lives, even when they are fighting. For example, Leo is usually very calm, collected, and focused while Raph is gritting his teeth, grunting, and basically going berserk.

Next time you see the movie, pay attention to the entire scene. When Leo was engaged in battle with the Nightwatcher, both he and Raph each exhibited their own distinct fighting mind set (calm VS angry.) But what happens after the big reveal when Leo finds out it's Raph under the helmet? Well, they argue and things get a little heated. Despite being fairly agitated, I think Leo is still mostly under control with his cold, "I'm better than you" and how he urges Raph not to fight him. But after they both start fighting it looks like they're both really into it. It's not just Raph attacking Leo and Leo deflecting the blow. Leo himself is taking swipes at Raph with his blade. In at one point Leo even charges Raph, rather than letting Raph come to him. How is that fighting defensively at all? They are both caught up in the moment, blinded by their own rage, and not even realizing how close they're coming to killing each other. That's why Leo misses Raph's head when he thrusts his blade at him. A lot of people have come to me and used that particular action as justification for why Leo is holding back through the entire fight. They say that Leo is just trying to scare Raph, but to me that is the only sign that Leo might be holding back. I'm going to need more than that to be convinced. It's not like Leo is some God of a swordsman that never misses or anything...

That final pic made me almost spew out my cereal. Wasn't expecting that, lol. Poor Leo indeed. I agree they are both actually "fighting" and not one fighting and the other defending. That much is obvious to me. Just because Leo can't bring himself to actually deal out the killing blow doesn't mean that he's not angry enough to do it. He just has a control over that anger and so he doesn't do it. One of the differences he and Raph display in this scene. It does not mean that Leo is IN ANY WAY intending to let Raph win. How is he to know whether Raph's idea of winning means a stab in the eye or not? It's stupid to think Leo would let anyone best him in a fight, especially one as angry and unpredictable as Raph! I do like to think, however, that deep down Leo knew that Raph would never kill his own brother no matter how angry he was. But in the heat of battle isn't it easy to lose such an understanding of someone when they're too angry at you to use similar reasoning?

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

So, that is my interpretation of how it all went down. You don't have to agree with me, but I've thought about this for a long time, so I feel like it at least makes sense. Hope it wasn't a case of TLDR.

Never!! Some readers here do hate long posts, but they're the ones missing out. I'd like to think most of us love reading any intelligent post from a well-read Turtles fan

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

Agree 100%. Leo's humility in his success is almost to a fault. However, while I don't think that he thinks that the world revolves around him, I do think that Leo does have a little arrogance, but not in a way that contradicts his character. Leo sees his humility as a virtue, (and it is) but he also recognizes Raphael's lack of the virtue. But rather than wanting to deal with Raph and work through his flaws in order to form a unified team, Leo believes the team would be better off without Raphael. As is exhibited later in the movie when he says, "What do we need Raph for anyway? He's the one that's always jeopardizing our missions!"

Agreed. I don't see how Leo fans can be so put off by their beloved Turtle having a little arrogance. He's not perfect, I for one like Leo better being a realistic young person--that is, with flaws. He's still just as respectable. And he learns from his mistakes in this film, and that's even better.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

I've thought long and hard about why Leo says this. I must admit that when I first saw the movie I thought it was a bit out of character. Have you ever argued with a friend, and the argument got a little heated? Eventually, you said something that you later regretted, and since you were friends with that person the thing you said really stung because you knew the person and you knew what you said was really going to hurt them? I think this is what happened in this situation. I think that the argument between him and Raph just angered Leo so much, that it caused him to say something that he knows him and Raph have been thinking all these years. That's why it is so out of character. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me.

Beautifully thought out. Hit the nail right on the head. Have you really only made two posts on the Technodrome Forums? Welcome, my good man

[Leonardo Mystic]

Originally Posted by Leonardo Mystic

That works, but not in the way Leo wants it to. Raph wants to fight him to prove him wrong. Leo does not want to fight his brother this way, but again he's left with no choice. He composes himself, and very reluctantly draws his swords. Raph doesn't hesitate, and charges right at him. Leo is forced to move then; to fight.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

Actually, this is incorrect. The fight starts with both of them charging each other, after Raphael initiates the conflict as himself.

As I saw it, Raph charged first, then Leo follows. After the first clash when they pause for a moment, yes, Leo is the first to charge here as now he's really angry at this point.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Seiza

I heard Donny also deflects lasers with his bo staff? I figure they forge their own weapons from what they find, so... yikes, the stuff those New Yorkers must throw down their sewers...

And agreed about Super Leo in the 2k3 toon. I found it pretty hard to believe when he came out on top so easily during the "whose weapon is better" scene, but eh, I reserve the right to be spoiled. Whatever the case, I feel that in the movies, the playing field is much more levelled.

Oops. I forgot about Donny and his magical stick! See, I keep saying it and saying it. We gotta have Hermoine and Donny meet one day. And not in the sense of romance. But that they have similar traits to eachother, and they both have a signature "super brain".

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by Raphamel

Beautifully thought out. Hit the nail right on the head. Have you really only made two posts on the Technodrome Forums? Welcome, my good man

Thank you for your kind words, and yes reading this post prompted me to join the forum, so that's why I don't have many posts (yet). I actually had the entire post typed up before my account was activated. The wait was killer.

Originally Posted by Leonardo Mystic

As I saw it, Raph charged first, then Leo follows. After the first clash when they pause for a moment, yes, Leo is the first to charge here as now he's really angry at this point.

The way the scene is shot/edited it does show Raph charge first, but then the camera immediately cuts to Leo charging. So I think for all intents and purposes they're just both charging each other.

[jenna]

Janus Prospero - Good words, dude. I'm luvin' your theories.

[Swany]

Well, my brain juices are certainly flowing.

I have to admit, I've changed my ideas about this. After seeing the movie again, and reading other peoples opinions. Im deffo rethinking this.

Just have to get my thoughts to together.


Janus Prospero, welcome and yeah, I'm loving your theories too.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

The way the scene is shot/edited it does show Raph charge first, but then the camera immediately cuts to Leo charging. So I think for all intents and purposes they're just both charging each other.

I saw it like leo mystic, I got the feeling that Raph engaged Leo. Only after Raph charged, Leo did as well. Then everything that happened after the fight was underway was the heat of battle.

[Seiza]

^Splitting the screen into two would've been a way to show them both charging at the same time.

Though I think it's not possible to say conclusively whether Raph charged first. I can only remember two moments where Leo shows hesitation (the "don't do it, Raph" line and that small breath he takes before drawing his swords); after that, he's giving his all in the battle.

Originally Posted by Raphamel

Raph has layers just like you do, Leo. Always has.

LOL! Is this based on posts by other TMNT fans? Because if so, well... This is the first time I've seen any indication of anyone thinking Raph is less complex than Leo. I usually see Leo being called the flat one.

Or are you looking at it from Leo's POV, i.e. that he might think Raph's only got one set of emotions (angry, pissed off, sulky, brooding-- rinse and repeat)? XD

Why are people so unable to believe what their own eyes show them? Leo *CAN* lose just like anyone else.

Don't underestimate the powers of fanboyism/fangirlism. It's about as bad as those who claim Leo "only" got that uppercut in the first part of the fight "just" because Raph was in his Nightwatcher suit. I felt the fight was clear in that sense: Leo rightfully won the first round, Raph rightfully won the second.

As for the emotional and psychological aspects? Details to be discussed on message boards.

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by Seiza

^Splitting the screen into two would've been a way to show them both charging at the same time.

Though I think it's not possible to say conclusively whether Raph charged first.

Well, I don't even think that's the issue really. I mean, everyone admits that Raph initiated the fight. But if Leo was fighting defensively, he would have let Raph come to him rather than charge him at all.

Originally Posted by Seiza

Don't underestimate the powers of fanboyism/fangirlism. It's about as bad as those who claim Leo "only" got that uppercut in the first part of the fight "just" because Raph was in his Nightwatcher suit.

Well, that helmet had to cause some sort of tunnel vision.

[Swany]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

Well, that helmet had to cause some sort of tunnel vision.

Yeah it has a snout that sticks out a bit. Raph did look down at Leo, he just didn't react quickly enough.