Raph vs. Leo - SPOILERS INSIDE

[Seiza]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

Well, I don't even think that's the issue really. I mean, everyone admits that Raph initiated the fight. But if Leo was fighting defensively, he would have let Raph come to him rather than charge him at all.

Ah, that's true. Leo certainly wasn't fighting defensively, at any rate.

Well, that helmet had to cause some sort of tunnel vision.

Heheh. Basically, strip away the long-winded rambling in all my posts, my stance is simple enough-- despite EVERYTHING in the first half, Leo won; and despite EVERYTHING in the second half, Raph won. Both wins came with conditions, but they are wins nonetheless.

Kevin Munroe did say the answer to Raph vs. Leo would be known in this battle-- and IMHO, it's neither. Any turtle can beat the other, depending on the circumstances and such.

[PrivateRadio]

By the way, though Raph did get past Leo in Return to New York pt 1, in either issue 48 or 49 Leo takes a super pissed Raph in two out of three falls.

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

Well, that helmet had to cause some sort of tunnel vision.

I don't know, I mean he's a ninja . Aren't one of their little tricks is to have the ability to defend themselves without even being able to see. We even saw them practicing that in the first film on the farm. Just saying .

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

I don't know, I mean he's a ninja . Aren't one of their little tricks is to have the ability to defend themselves without even being able to see. We even saw them practicing that in the first film on the farm. Just saying .

True, but I'd imagine that skill is all about utilizing a hightened sense of hearing, smell, and touch. All of which would have been dampened in the full Nightwatcher getup.

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

True, but I'd imagine that skill is all about utilizing a hightened sense of hearing, smell, and touch. All of which would have been dampened in the full Nightwatcher getup.

why would it be dampened? hell in this case he even still had good vision to utilize. if the helmet was going to be an issue with his ability to fight in any style he would have worn something different or modified it a bit. Raph could move and fight perfectly well in that get up.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

why would it be dampened? hell in this case he even still had good vision to utilize. if the helmet was going to be an issue with his ability to fight in any style he would have worn something different or modified it a bit. Raph could move and fight perfectly well in that get up.

But it did slow him down somewhat, and his vision was limited. And Janus Prospero is right: the whole point of fighting with little or no sight is to use the other senses- hearing, touch, and smell. The Nightwatcher helmet limited every one of these senses.

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

But it did slow him down somewhat, and his vision was limited. And Janus Prospero is right: the whole point of fighting with little or no sight is to use the other senses- hearing, touch, and smell. The Nightwatcher helmet limited every one of these senses.

no your assuming it slowed him down and that he had problems seeing. the guy seemed perfectly fine as is. if the helmet or gloves were going to intefere with his ability to use any of his training including his ability to hear, touch and smell I gaurantee you that he would not have worn it or he would have modified it. I mean how much does he need to hear to be able to fight an opponent? What does he need to touch other than fist to jaw? And who says he can't smell anything? That thing has to have holes in it, otherwise it would be pretty hard for him to breath. Surely with those holes he can catch a whiff of his enemies. One of his main gifts is his ability to work in and out of darkness with ease and in this case he even had vision to work with. Everything else about his ability to hear, smell and touch being hampered have little to back it up other than the assumption that helmet and costume=hampered skills.

I can understand if you want Raph to win a fight but let's not make excuses just because he lost the first round. He lost because Leo beat him fair and square, not because of his helmet.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

But it did slow him down somewhat, and his vision was limited. And Janus Prospero is right: the whole point of fighting with little or no sight is to use the other senses- hearing, touch, and smell. The Nightwatcher helmet limited every one of these senses.

The armour had its weaknesses, yes. But it also gave raph a one up in blocking blows from Leo. That had to hurt Leo striking steal with his bare arms. Raph could easily block with his arm covered in armour. And Getting punched by a metal gauntlet has to hurt more than a bare fist.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

no your assuming it slowed him down and that he had problems seeing. the guy seemed perfectly fine as is. if the helmet or gloves were going to intefere with his ability to use any of his training including his ability to hear, touch and smell I gaurantee you that he would not have worn it or he would have modified it. I mean how much does he need to hear to be able to fight an opponent? What does he need to touch other than fist to jaw? And who says he can't smell anything? That thing has to have holes in it, otherwise it would be pretty hard for him to breath.

I can understand if you want Raph to win a fight but let's not make excuses just because he lost the first round. He lost because Leo beat him fair and square, not because of his helmet.

I'm not assuming anything. He couldn't hear very well exactly what Leonardo was saying, that was proof. And the extra weight did slow him down; but he didn't need speed to beat Leonardo, just clearer vision, which he got when fighting Leonardo without his helmet.

And I didn't want anyone to win. I think it was wrong of them to fight in the first place. I'm just analyzing and evaluating a situation using common sense. And it was all really one fight, just so you know, and Raphael won; after the uppercut, he got right back up uninjured, the fight paused for a short argument, then resumed.

Just as Neutrino said, I believe the armor gave advantages AS WELL AS disadvantages.

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

I'm not assuming anything. He couldn't hear very well exactly what Leonardo was saying, that was proof. And the extra weight did slow him down; but he didn't need speed to beat Leonardo, just clearer vision, which he got when fighting Leonardo without his helmet.

And I didn't want anyone to win. I think it was wrong of them to fight in the first place. I'm just analyzing and evaluating a situation using common sense. And it was all really one fight, just so you know, and Raphael won; after the uppercut, he got right back up uninjured, the fight paused for a short argument, then resumed.

No what we heard is his commenting on the fact that Leo was lecturing him over Leo's lecturing. We heard him talking and listening to Casey with his helmet on earlier in the film so that difficult hearing thing doesn't fly. And where are you getting this extra weight thing slowed him down? How fast is he normally? Do you have numbers to prove that it slowed him down? And he beat Leo because he out muscled Leo. It had nothing to do with his helmet--he got angry and out muscled him just like Leo simply out fought Raph before hand. Saying he lost because of the helmet is an assumption. And the fight was 2 rounds goign by the way I "evaluate a situation using common sense". Leo won round 1/ pause to argue/ Raph wins round 2

The costume giving him a disadvantage is simply assumptions. There was nothing to show that he was having trouble fighting with the costume. Issues only arrised when he lost round 1 to Leo before the helmet came off and his identity was revealed, and he lost that because Leo honestly, straight up, beat him

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

The costume giving him a disadvantage is simply assumptions. There was nothing to show that he was having trouble fighting with the costume. Issues only arrised when he lost round 1 to Leo before the helmet came off and his identity was revealed, and he lost that because Leo honestly, straight up, beat him

No, it's no assumption. It's "common sense" that full-body armor slows someone down, and it seemed pretty heavy. And he would've had no problem finding Leonardo right behind him, just before the uppercut, if that helmet hadn't limited his vision, so yes there were disadvantages, but also enough advantages to level it all. As you said, it was all fair and square. So that means, whatever the result of the whole fight was, and you know what it was, it was indeed fair and square.

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

No, it's no assumption. It's "common sense" that full-body armor slows someone down, and it seemed pretty heavy. And he would've had no problem finding Leonardo right behind him, just before the uppercut, if that helmet hadn't limited his vision, so yes there were disadvantages, but also enough advantages to level it all. As you said, it was all fair and square. So that means, whatever the result of the whole fight was, and you know what it was, it was indeed fair and square.

Yet look at him--he's running rooftops, fighting with incredible speed and so on. My butt it slowed him down. Did you not see his moves? How is that slow? Full body armor does not automatically equal dampened skills. Look at movie Batman or the freaking Power Rangers for example. Body armor and helmets and they still kick an impossible amount of ass without any issues from their Ranger helmets or bat armor.

And he lost Leo because Leo out moved him. His helmet had nothing to do with his ability to not notice Leo behind him. He got sloppy and Leo capitalized on it, just as Leo pointed out during the fight when he gave his 'the problem with anger is it makes you lose all sight' speech. And when he turned around Leo was waiting for him and he got caught. That was sloppiness on Raph's part--not the doing of a difficult helmet.

And yeah I said the results where fair and square--what's your point?

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

And yeah I said the results where fair and square--what's your point?

It means whatever happened in the end of the whole thing (Raphael won in the end) was fair and square. And that we both made our points.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

Yet look at him--he's running rooftops, fighting with incredible speed and so on. My butt it slowed him down. Did you not see his moves? How is that slow? Full body armor does not automatically equal dampened skills. Look at movie Batman or the freaking Power Rangers for example. Body armor and helmets and they still kick an impossible amount of ass without any issues from their Ranger helmets or bat armor.

And he lost Leo because Leo out moved him. His helmet had nothing to do with his ability to not notice Leo behind him. He got sloppy and Leo capitalized on it, just as Leo pointed out during the fight when he gave his 'the problem with anger is it makes you lose all sight' speech. And when he turned around Leo was waiting for him and he got caught. That was sloppiness on Raph's part--not the doing of a difficult helmet.

And yeah I said the results where fair and square--what's your point?

Triplexxx is right, that the suit could have been an inhibitor. It is common sense to realize that a metal and leather suit not only has some added weight to it, but leather can restrict your full movement, and that the suit would get hot and stuffy right quick.

If you thought Raph was moving very fast with the suit on, can you imagine how much more faster he would be without it.

If you dont believe us, you go and put on a Harley Davidson Biker's outfit on, and see how swell you can move, compared to your movements without it!

[Raphamel]

Originally Posted by Seiza

LOL! Is this based on posts by other TMNT fans? Because if so, well... This is the first time I've seen any indication of anyone thinking Raph is less complex than Leo. I usually see Leo being called the flat one.

*gasp!* Leo's not FLAT--I thought the implants did him wonders!!! No wonder Mikey had to hug him around the waist, that chest area is just way too bulky now!

Originally Posted by Seiza

Or are you looking at it from Leo's POV, i.e. that he might think Raph's only got one set of emotions (angry, pissed off, sulky, brooding-- rinse and repeat)? XD

Yes, LOL (smartass! ) I was looking at it from Leo's POV, he kind of went through the motions as a typical older brother thinking his emotional younger brother is full of piss and vinegar and had some growing up to do before he was worth giving the time of day to. I refer to it as The "I'm Better Than You" syndrome Happens in many families across the globe, Leo's not really to blame for that.

Originally Posted by Warhorse

If you thought Raph was moving very fast with the suit on, can you imagine how much more faster he would be without it.

Exactly, Warhorse!! I've stated a similar argument on YouTube and I got flamed by crazies like I was some demon eating their dreams. I don't understand all the denial about this particular subject. We as the audience saw out of the helmet through Raph's eyes in two different instances and the peripheral vision is NOT the best (he's lucky he doesn't steer that motorcycle into a ravine once or twice!!) It's suitable enough to take on the common criminal since they're not as agile or swift as a ninja.

Originally Posted by Warhorse

If you dont believe us, you go and put on a Harley Davidson Biker's outfit on, and see how swell you can move, compared to your movements without it!

The helmet is probably a good reason why the Jersey Devil got the best of him for awhile, too (but thankfully it saved him from a few concussions, bwahaha). On that note I thought Raph's idea for the little "snack" was actually pretty ingenious, lol. There's proof that even Raph has a little Donny in him!

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Triplexxx is right, that the suit could have been an inhibitor. It is common sense to realize that a metal and leather suit not only has some added weight to it, but leather can restrict your full movement, and that the suit would get hot and stuffy right quick.

If you thought Raph was moving very fast with the suit on, can you imagine how much more faster he would be without it.

If you dont believe us, you go and put on a Harley Davidson Biker's outfit on, and see how swell you can move, compared to your movements without it!

Dude i'm gonna tell you the same thing I told triplexxx, unless there was a moment where Raphael says "man this suit is hard to wear in battle" or" man this suit is an inhibitor" there is nothing to back up that he had trouble moving in the suit other than the assumption that a suit=diminished abilities. Its common sense in the real world to assume that but this isn't the real worlf we are talking about and the fact that he moves, fights and does everything he normally does so easily proves that this 'real world assumption' you are placing on him is not applying to him. Not to mention the other examples I posted i.e Power Rangers with their huge helmets fighting with ease or movie Batman who not only wears a giant rubber suit but a freaking cape yet still can fight perfectly well. This suit must be an inhibitor thing are just assumptions to try to justify why Raphael lost to Leo.

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by Raphamel

*gasp!* Leo's not FLAT--I thought the implants did him wonders!!! No wonder Mikey had to hug him around the waist, that chest area is just way too bulky now!



Yes, LOL (smartass! ) I was looking at it from Leo's POV, he kind of went through the motions as a typical older brother thinking his emotional younger brother is full of piss and vinegar and had some growing up to do before he was worth giving the time of day to. I refer to it as The "I'm Better Than You" syndrome Happens in many families across the globe, Leo's not really to blame for that.



Exactly, Warhorse!! I've stated a similar argument on YouTube and I got flamed by crazies like I was some demon eating their dreams. I don't understand all the denial about this particular subject. We as the audience saw out of the helmet through Raph's eyes in two different instances and the peripheral vision is NOT the best (he's lucky he doesn't steer that motorcycle into a ravine once or twice!!) It's suitable enough to take on the common criminal since they're not as agile or swift as a ninja.



The helmet is probably a good reason why the Jersey Devil got the best of him for awhile, too (but thankfully it saved him from a few concussions, bwahaha). On that note I thought Raph's idea for the little "snack" was actually pretty ingenious, lol. There's proof that even Raph has a little Donny in him!

Excuses. He had trouble with the Jersey Devil because the thing was small, quick and had super strength, not because the helmet gave him trouble seeing it. I mean people keep wanting to bring up real world common sense, don't you think it would make real world common sense for him to decided to wear something easier to see out of if wearing the helmet was going to hurt/dimishish his ability to see whats going on around him? And yeah his visors were narrow but it was wide enough for him to be able to see a nice solid view of Leo during the lecture scene. Nor did it hurt his ability to notice the criminal with the gun shaking behind him while he faced the opposite direction in the beggining. Wait let me guess, he probably heard the shaking? Well then why could he not utilize his training to hear Leo instead of getting all riled up in the middle of the fight if? That was slopiness on Raphael's part, not the helmets parts. He lost to Leo because Leo out moved him. And you know what, it did come down to his not being able to see--it came down to his not being able to see Leo because Leo was screwing with him and proving a point--that his anger was going to make him lose all sight to his goal---which proved true when Leo out moved him.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

Dude i'm gonna tell you the same thing I told triplexxx, unless there was a moment where Raphael says "man this suit is hard to wear in battle" or" man this suit is an inhibitor" there is nothing to back up that he had trouble moving in the suit other than the assumption that a suit=diminished abilities. Its common sense in the real world to assume that but this isn't the real worlf we are talking about and the fact that he moves, fights and does everything he normally does so easily proves that this 'real world assumption' you are placing on him is not applying to him. Not to mention the other examples I posted i.e Power Rangers with their huge helmets fighting with ease or movie Batman who not only wears a giant rubber suit but a freaking cape yet still can fight perfectly well. This suit must be an inhibitor thing are just assumptions to try to justify why Raphael lost to Leo.

Power Rangers are a poor example to initiate your point. One of the big lures of the TMNT is that they are non superheroes in a realistic setting.

And the Power Rangers didn't have heavy suits on. And I have watched the Batman movies, he seemed to be a bit sluggish in that suit, compared to what a real fighter would be without it.

Same scenario with Raph.

Also, Raph didn't say the suit was difficult for him, but he also never said that it was easy either.

But I dont have to use the suit to show how good Raph can be. Leo was also alot fresher in the fight compared to Raph, who had just gone through the attack with the stone generals, being tranquelized, then having the fight with the Jersey Devil, while Leo has been hanging kind of laid back the past few days. But I'm sure you can argue that Leo had some jet lag, but since he didn't seem to complain about that, I guess he never really did.

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Power Rangers are a poor example to initiate your point. One of the big lures of the TMNT is that they are non superheroes in a realistic setting.

And the Power Rangers didn't have heavy suits on. And I have watched the Batman movies, he seemed to be a bit sluggish in that suit, compared to what a real fighter would be without it.

Same scenario with Raph.

Also, Raph didn't say the suit was difficult for him, but he also never said that it was easy either.

But I dont have to use the suit to show how good Raph can be. Leo was also alot fresher in the fight compared to Raph, who had just gone through the attack with the stone generals, being tranquelized, then having the fight with the Jersey Devil, while Leo has been hanging kind of laid back the past few days. But I'm sure you can argue that Leo had some jet lag, but since he didn't seem to complain about that, I guess he never really did.

How is it a poor example? Because 1 city is named Angel Grove and the other New York? Both cities are no more real than the other in their respective story. And while this New York is based on a real city it doesn't mean that all the rules of real life New York apply to this version. The simple fact that these are Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles fighting Stone Generals in a New York City who doesn't seem to have many cops around throws out the 'non superheroes in realistic settings' thing. How realistic does their world have to be? They already take liberties with the realistic aspect of their world anyways so please tell me. These guys may not be superheroes in the sense that they don't answer the call of the city but they are heroes in the sense that they fight the bad guys and fight for what's right in a world that is very much real to them.

And the Rangers wear helmets in the tv show (and sometimes bigger armor in many cases i.e Battllizer fights that utilize hand to hand combats like Nick's or Jack's) and armor with helmets in their first movie so there you go, helmets and armor. Plus Batman looked sluggish to you? How fast should he be? Fast enough to fight multiple bad guys at the same time like in Batman Begins ?(you know, during his first appearance when he starts moving around the room quickly and in the shadows, pulling bad guys into the darkness while they are unable to see him before he jumps down and fights about 5 bad guys at the same time, beating all of them.) Batman looked sluggish to you compared to a real fighter and you got that same feeling from a rooftop jumping, motorcyle riding, ninja fighting Raphael as well? That looked sluggish to you? Come on now....

And yeah he never said the suit was easy (how did I know someoen was goign to try that) but the fact that we saw how well he could move with it shows that it definatly was not hard for him. And yeah Raph had been through all those things but Raphael seemed perfectly fine after the generals attack, the tranquilizer affects had been worn off, and while the Jersey Devil threw him around he was in no way hurt. And jet lag? What does jet lag have to do with anything?

[triplexxx]

If there's no reason to apply the "real-world" concepts that Raphael's suit slowed him down, even a little, or that his senses were a little dulled by the helmet, then there's no reason to apply the "real-world" concepts that the suit offered Raphael any protection from Leonardo's blows, or that Leonardo's punching or kicking him would hurt Leonardo in any way. You ever noticed when the turtle punch or kick Shredder, they do so with no armor, protection, or whatever, and they NEVER showed any sign that it hurt. Don't you think, in the real world, it would hurt their hands and feet to assault Shredder in all that armor, or to get assaulted by him? Not to mention, Shredder has spikes on his armor, and yet the turtles kick or hit him in areas that are damn close to these spikes all the time.
I'd say the suit was more about keeping Raphael's ID hidden rather than for actual protection.

This whole thing's going nowhere anyway. It was Raphael who won the fight "fair and square" anyway. And bottom line is (as I've said before): any turtle can beat any of his brothers on any given day, and each turtle has an area in training where they're dominant over their brothers. There's not enough evidence, even here, to prove who's best.