What is it about the TMNT that makes them so unappealing?

[jenna]

Yo Rooish - I must confess I don't know Batman and Spideman well enough beyond the movies to be quotable on this matter but have to say that as an actress and english literature obsessive, I have to say that the turles are some of the most complex characters out there. Almost astonishlingly so.

Oh man, I might be drunk right now, but still stand by my belief that the turtles, Raphael in particular, are of the most complex characters ever written.

Well, that's my opinion anyway....

[Ava Collier]

Originally Posted by jenna

Oh man, I might be drunk right now, but still stand by my belief that the turtles, Raphael in particular, are of the most complex characters ever written.

Well, that's my opinion anyway....

XD I think you redefined "poignant" just now. You shouldn't drink if you're poignant >.>

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by jenna

Yo Rooish - I must confess I don't know Batman and Spideman well enough beyond the movies to be quotable on this matter but have to say that as an actress and english literature obsessive, I have to say that the turles are some of the most complex characters out there. Almost astonishlingly so.

Oh man, I might be drunk right now, but still stand by my belief that the turtles, Raphael in particular, are of the most complex characters ever written.

Well, that's my opinion anyway....

Hey, I agree totally with you!

In fact, I think the Turtles (Raph in particular) is probably one of the most well drawn out characters I have ever seen, in any medium. I'm a big fan or LOTR. Read the books many times. But, while the stories go into detail on the settings, the times. I dont feel anything with the characters that I do when watching a TMNT cartoon.

Sometimes, I find the Turtles to be more human and relate to them more than I do with real live people.

[Swany]

I can't say I find then unappealing at all.

I like the fact that I can relate to them with my 3 bros.

[Andrew NDB]

An excellent post.

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

For too long now this question has been floating around my mind, and I really need to know. Why is it that when it comes to characters like Spider-Man and Transformers, people can say things like "Oh these guys are so cool" or "I can relate to them so much". But when it comes to the turtles, the best people can say is, "I remember them from that 80's cartoon".

Yep. And if you're going to stand there and try and reason with them with "Well... they started in a very gritty, real comic" you'll just sound like a douche. Catch 22.

The Turtles are treated as nothing but kid stuff, mainly because of the concept.

Not the concept itself, just where its been in the mainstream. As you just wrote, the party line answer from people is going to be some kind of vague remembrance of the 80s cartoon.

But I never understood that, the concept is no goofier than Spidey's or Hulk's. The point is to look past the silly orgin, and enjoy the stories.

The origin is far, far from being problematic to their public stature.

OK... aside from normal Splinter learning martial arts in his cage...

Another thing I've found is, people say they would like to see a more grown up TMNT, but when the TMNT try to deliver on that, all of a sudden, all of a sudden you got a bunch of people saying it's raping they're childhood.

The TMNT have never tried to deliver on that in any media outside of the comics. And with so many different incarnations of the TMNT out there -- some kid-pandering, some quite the opposite -- and fans having totally different taste and favorites (and not only is this to be expected, but it's totally OK)... there's no way you'll ever get TMNT fans at large to agree on anything. It's not even worth it to try.

As I've posted elsewhere, the best thing they could do is just let TMNT sit on a shelf for a decade or so, let the memory of the kid-pandering stuff fade a bit from pop culture and memory... then come back starting from ground zero, a PG-13 movie or TV show that is nearly a panel-for-panel adaption or amalgamation of the comics.

Alot of times, people don't really know what they want with TMNT. Some want it all goofy, some want it completley hardcore, and anything less is unacceptable.

The problem is that the fandom has never really been united, and it never really will. It's not criminal, and we should all celebrate our differences (that is what keeps things interesting), it's just the way it is.

I thought it could be that maybe the general public don't think the characters are relatable. That they're not socially relevant.

Not the general public, the bean counters that pay for the production of movies and television shows. They hear "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and the extent of their care toward whether or not the characters are relatable barely extends past their thoughts dancing around of toys and merch.

"It used to be a successful kiddy show and sold a lotta toys... the formula worked back then. Hm, we can risk growing up the Turtles and actually doing a comic book movie and maybe the movie will bomb.... or we can just stick with what we know -- the kiddy formula -- and have a better chance at box office. Kiddy show it is!"

It's sad, it sucks, but that's just the nature of the people with the money/influence that have backed every major media incarnation of the TMNT to date.

But even that doesn't make sense. If people would just let down they're gaurds they would see that they can relate to at least one of the Turtles.

If you're somewhat of an older brother figure, someone that has to be resposnsible for others. Or just someone that strives hard for perfection, you can relate to Leonardo.

If you're generally easy going, you like to have fun, you avoid conflict, rarely get angry, and you have a strong creative side, you can relate to Michelangelo.

If you have a curios mind, or if someone who tends to get really wrapped up in your work, so much so that you sometimes inadvertantly alienate people close to you, you can relate to Donatello.

If you're the kind of peorson that tends to take other people's problems on your shoulder, and alot of times get frustrated that you can't do much to help. Or if you're a loner, who solves they're own problems alone and doesn't like asking for help, you can relate to Raphael.

Right on all fronts. Though I hate how it's so easy to categorize the TMNT as one-trick ponies. "Raph is angry!" "Mike is goofy!" "Don is nerdy!" "Leo is leadery!" I mean, c'mon... aren't they a little deeper than this?

With some fans it's like a cardinal sin if Leo makes a joke, or Mike gets angry, or Raph fixes something mechanical.

Sorry, neither here nor there, just had to vent that bit.

But still, there's no law that states you have to relate to a character to like them. How many of us can honestly say we can relate to Batman, yet we still like the character.

Quite right. I'd daresay any one of the TMNT are more relatable to the average person than a billionaire with mental issues dressing up like a bat, hopping rooftops to fight crime.

People will say they have such fond memories of the Turtles, but when it came to TMNT, no one would even go see it They say that this movie is tainting they're childhoods, but how exactly?

Whoever is saying that, they deserve it.

This movie had nothing to do the orginal cartoon. The people who loved the 60's Batman series didn't complain when Tim Burton made Batman back in 1990. Or maybe they did, I don't know. Point is, people looked past the differences and accepted the movie for what it was. Why couldn't people do the same with TMNT?

You mean apart from the nonsense plot and spineless action?

All the idiots that said it wasn't goofy enough, are being totaly unfair.

After watching this new TMNT movie, I can say I felt thoroughly "goofed."

Why didn't anyone say the same about Superman, or Hellboy, or the Transformers.

If TMNT had gotten a PG-13 ratting, would that have changed people's tunes. I think it would, seeing as how the PG ratting Warner Bros forced upon the movie didn't help it one bit.

You'll get no argument from me.

I'm posing this question to TMNT fans and non TMNT fans alike. I need to know, what is it that makes the TMNT so different that it can't be accepted like Spider-Man and Batman?

Because the only real way TMNT can endure is to "grow up" the material a bit, something TPTB seem to be doing everything in their power to prevent for want of toys, toys, toys and Happy Meals and rubbish. So what we get is a cyclical series of events where one fandom gets older and older while the Turtles are getting younger and younger, with not even a bone tossed out to the fans who are quickly outgrowing them.

I'm not talking about us, the diehard fans. We'll watch/buy almost anything called TMNT.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Swany

I can't say I find then unappealing at all.

The feeling's mutual. Up until year 2003, I was always stuck on the old toon, and I still am. But at the same time, I decided to purchase the old movies that year and watch them all in their entirity for the first time, and I came to love all three of them after watching them once or twice. Same with the new toon, when I found out it was for real and got my first glimpse on tv, I only had to watch a few episodes before I got stuck on that as well. The new movie rocked too. It's all a matter of expanding one's horizons, you don't have to shut out the old stuff, just keep it and allow the new stuff in as well. Maybe some people are better able to do this than others.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

An excellent post.

Yep. And if you're going to stand there and try and reason with them with "Well... they started in a very gritty, real comic" you'll just sound like a douche. Catch 22.

Yeah, I know that. I know that all too well.

The TMNT have never tried to deliver on that in any media outside of the comics. And with so many different incarnations of the TMNT out there -- some kid-pandering, some quite the opposite -- and fans having totally different taste and favorites (and not only is this to be expected, but it's totally OK)... there's no way you'll ever get TMNT fans at large to agree on anything. It's not even worth it to try.

Except for the fact that they like the TMNT, in at least one form.

As I've posted elsewhere, the best thing they could do is just let TMNT sit on a shelf for a decade or so, let the memory of the kid-pandering stuff fade a bit from pop culture and memory... then come back starting from ground zero, a PG-13 movie or TV show that is nearly a panel-for-panel adaption or amalgamation of the comics.

Aside from waiting 10 years, I'm so down for that. I know the old show is what put the Turtles in people's minds, but in order for them to grow beyond 80's nostalgia, the memories of the show need to fade.

Not the general public, the bean counters that pay for the production of movies and television shows. They hear "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and the extent of their care toward whether or not the characters are relatable barely extends past their thoughts dancing around of toys and merch.

"It used to be a successful kiddy show and sold a lotta toys... the formula worked back then. Hm, we can risk growing up the Turtles and actually doing a comic book movie and maybe the movie will bomb.... or we can just stick with what we know -- the kiddy formula -- and have a better chance at box office. Kiddy show it is!"

It's sad, it sucks, but that's just the nature of the people with the money/influence that have backed every major media incarnation of the TMNT to date.

They just need to stop looking at one audience. The original audience are grown now, so they expect more maturity, and the kids, well, they like anything with action and wierd characters. TMNT delievers on that, the studios just need to be made to see it.

Right on all fronts. Though I hate how it's so easy to categorize the TMNT as one-trick ponies. "Raph is angry!" "Mike is goofy!" "Don is nerdy!" "Leo is leadery!" I mean, c'mon... aren't they a little deeper than this?

With some fans it's like a cardinal sin if Leo makes a joke, or Mike gets angry, or Raph fixes something mechanical.

Sorry, neither here nor there, just had to vent that bit.

When people think of the TMNT's personalities, they instantly rember the old theme song: "Leonardo leads, Donatello does machines...". And in they're defense, it's easier to sing than "Leonardo is the leader but occasionaly doubts his abilities and has a hard time being the responsible one of the group, Donatello does machines and other inventions and rather solve problems with is mind..."

Quite right. I'd daresay any one of the TMNT are more relatable to the average person than a billionaire with mental issues dressing up like a bat, hopping rooftops to fight crime.

I think my Uncle Kevin can relate to that.

Whoever is saying that, they deserve it.



You mean apart from the nonsense plot and spineless action?



After watching this new TMNT movie, I can say I felt thoroughly "goofed."

We have totally different opinions on this front. But I don't want to fight about it so I'll just say, to each his own.

Because the only real way TMNT can endure is to "grow up" the material a bit, something TPTB seem to be doing everything in their power to prevent for want of toys, toys, toys and Happy Meals and rubbish. So what we get is a cyclical series of events where one fandom gets older and older while the Turtles are getting younger and younger, with not even a bone tossed out to the fans who are quickly outgrowing them.

I'm not talking about us, the diehard fans. We'll watch/buy almost anything called TMNT.

The new toon tried to grow with the times, when it came to story lines and characterization. The problem though, especially when you're on a network called 4 Kdis, it makes things a little hard to capture an older crowd.

And even the movie tried it, the main plot of the film was basically about a family coming back together and two members sorting out deep seeded personal issues, but people just couldn't get past the moster side plot.

I guess the studios just see that the Turtles appealed to kids once, and rather than expanding to appeal to an older crowd as well, they just go for more kids and expect everything to be fine.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

The new toon tried to grow with the times, when it came to story lines and characterization.

Yes, I totally applaud the early bits of the 4Kids cartoon. Totally, and I'm amazed at the level of direct creative involvement Laird was allowed -- what we got are great homages and semi-adaptions of classic Mirage stories. Shocked as all hell they were even able to allow Leo to behead Shredder like in the comics... some clever writing there that allowed that (his body is just a robot, etc), but the show showed some balls.

The problem though, especially when you're on a network called 4 Kdis, it makes things a little hard to capture an older crowd.

Well, no one can expect any TMNT cartoon to "set the record straight" as far as public perception of TMNT, though the new one has done a bit of damage control.

Say, if after the old cartoon and Turtlemania of the 90s died down, the public perception of the TMNT as kiddy nonsense was at a 10 out of 10, after the new toon it's somewhere around a more respectable 7 or 8. At least as I see it.

And even the movie tried it, the main plot of the film was basically about a family coming back together and two members sorting out deep seeded personal issues, but people just couldn't get past the monster side plot.

Since the movie spent so much time, energy, and emphasis on the monster side plot/Stargate/Statue People, that's not necessarily surprising. But we can agree to disagree, as you said.

I guess the studios just see that the Turtles appealed to kids once, and rather than expanding to appeal to an older crowd as well, they just go for more kids and expect everything to be fine.

Yep. And thus continues the cycle, never really learning from history.

[weredog]

I guess most people can't take talking animals seriously. Hard to relate to characters of a different species I guess.

I'm just the opposite. The fact that the turtles aren't human is one of the things that attracted me to them. I tend to identify with non humans easier than humans for some reason. Faulty wiring I suppose. While I can enjoy things like Spider Man, I won't go out of my way to watch them or buy the comics or whatever. If it's there, fine I'll watch or I'll read but it's no great loss to me if it never existed. Frankly I don't find the concept of mutated turtles trained to be ninjas any more silly than the idea of guys running around in long underwear beating the snot out of various other guys also in long underwear. Even the fact that a normal rat can learn martial arts by watching his master isn't any more silly than a guy bitten by a radioactive spider getting superpowers rather than, oh, I don't know, dying in the most horrible fashion.

[Ninjinister]

One problem I have is that there seem to be many more people psyched over Transformers than there were for TMNT - despite Transformer's plot being a load of hooey. Although I'm (obviously) a bigger TMNT fan than a Transformers one, I never really hated them (although all TV series after Beast Machines were boring in my opinion). However, the entire concept of the Transformers movie is how human will deal with a war between Autobots and Decepticons. Who the f--- cares?

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by The S

One problem I have is that there seem to be many more people psyched over Transformers than there were for TMNT - despite Transformer's plot being a load of hooey. Although I'm (obviously) a bigger TMNT fan than a Transformers one, I never really hated them (although all TV series after Beast Machines were boring in my opinion). However, the entire concept of the Transformers movie is how human will deal with a war between Autobots and Decepticons. Who the f--- cares?

From a personal point of view. Transformers is a disaster flick. It's going to be the action and very sick scenes (in a good way) of familiar robots tearing each other up. It's the same reason why people flock to the movies in droves to see Spider-Man, X-Men, Star Wars and Independence Day. Because of the big epic like action scenes, and some nostalgia thrown in.

When I heard of a Transformers movie being made, I wrote it off, thinking it was gonna be another cartoon. Then I saw the trailer, and I liked what I saw.

This is actually a good basis for an argument concerning how the TMNT are being handled. In that they are being treated too kiddy like, but yet they are too complex for the kiddies to grasp. They only know the blue one or the red one.

If this movie was allowed to be a PG-13 like Spider-Man, X-Men, Harry Potter or Transformers (which the official rating has yet to be released. Seems it's having a difficult time getting the desired PG-13 rating the studios want) TMNT could have been seeing a different out come.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Well, if we are lucky enough to see a sequel, then we should all petition of that PG-13 rating. It's not going to hurt the marketability with kids, and it won't alienate the 18-25 crowd.

PG - Bad
PG-13 - Profitable

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Ava Collier

XD I think you redefined "poignant" just now. You shouldn't drink if you're poignant >.>

Erm.... *sheepish grin* sorry about that.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

Well, if we are lucky enough to see a sequel, then we should all petition of that PG-13 rating. It's not going to hurt the marketability with kids, and it won't alienate the 18-25 crowd.

PG - Bad
PG-13 - Profitable

Definitely. Spider-Man is PG-13, and look how many kids are in that audience. And it still sells massive amounts of toys, books, backpacks and all that other crap aimed at kids.

Transformers as well is going to have a toy line. This whole mess is really making WB look like a bunch of unwise group of people thinking that TMNT just had to be PG to be appealing to kids! Face it, they screwed up big time!

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Definitely. Spider-Man is PG-13, and look how many kids are in that audience. And it still sells massive amounts of toys, books, backpacks and all that other crap aimed at kids.

Transformers as well is going to have a toy line. This whole mess is really making WB look like a bunch of unwise group of people thinking that TMNT just had to be PG to be appealing to kids! Face it, they screwed up big time!

I have to say I agree, although I'm biased cos I'm 26, not 6.

Interestingly, when I was there, a couple had taken kids who were fairly young in. Half way through, this little boy who looked about 6 stood up on his chair, planted his fists on his hips and declared in a loud, annoying voice: "I really don't like this!"

I laughed a lot. Most of the reast of the audience were 20-somethings. They all snickered at that too. It's like there was an unspoken knowledge amongst us all that the movie shouldn't have been for kids anyway.

[Spawn Guy]

And not one thing was thrown into the little brats skull? Not one blessed thing?

That's fan devotion for you...

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Spawn Guy

And not one thing was thrown into the little brats skull? Not one blessed thing?

That's fan devotion for you...

Well, I was there poised to hurl my cup of tea, but then I realised I would have to go without my tea, so I bit back the urge.

[Spawn Guy]

Well you can't waste a good cuppa...

[Ava Collier]

*pats Jenna* so cute! ^_^
I don't go to the movies anymore because of people like this kid you mention.
Okay...not people, and the kid sounds adorable really. (Kinda like my baby brother at my grandmother's funeral. We were told to pause, and my 8 year old brother goes. "Is he done?"...not everyone laughed >.>) But my husband >.<;
Sunshine and I have no idea what Spider-man 2 was about, but we know J Jonah Jameson's son is a werewolf...and Aunt May is scary. Take her money. Take all her money. I must have jumped three rows back. you could tell I was raised by my grandmother. My husband...The Drewatello... just would NOT shut up. I don't even know this character's name...I just know he's J Jonah Jameson's son...AND a werewolf. He kept saying it over, and over, and over...
"Hey isn't that the famous astronaut?"
"AAAAAAND a werewolf."
I didn't notice if anyone else was getting pissed, because I was too pissed.
At this point in my life, I finally realized that I was in fact qualified to look at these things from an adult perspective...but just because I have the ability, doesn't mean I have the desire.

[Warhorse]

Hey, funny story in one of my viewings of TMNT. One family was bringing in a couple of kids, about 6ish or 7ish, and both had toy swords and bandanas on. I was walking into the theater behind them, and as they were passing the usher, she stopped them and grabbed the toy swords (I dont think so! You'll get them back after the movie thank you very much)

Good thing she took them away. When Raph and Leo began to fight, both of those kids were on their chairs making fists in the air along with the what the scene was unfolding on the screen. Thank goodness I was near the back and they were on the floor row!