Could someone enlighten me....

[Fledermaus]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Already have. Laird is indeed retoning all of Vol. 1 (or at least the ones he considers canonical), and they'll all look exactly like his Vol. 1 #1 reprint with the rubbish tones.

But... it's not certain if he'll ever really get around to finishing it. He hasn't talked about it in some time.

And... what is to become of the originals -- which garnered so many fans of the TMNT comic in the first place?

I ask this because if you look at the comics that Dan has put up on the site, the toning is... unspoiled, from what I can tell.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

And... what is to become of the originals -- which garnered so many fans of the TMNT comic in the first place?

I believe the quote from Peter from one of the Vol. 4 books concerning redoing issue #8 without Cerebus was that there is no shortage of original #8s available and we're free to find one of those and read it if we choose. I would gather he would have a similar answer for all of Vol. 1 in general.

I ask this because if you look at the comics that Dan has put up on the site, the toning is... unspoiled, from what I can tell.

Yeah, I noticed this, too. And actually, I just linked to all of scans on ninjaturtles.com for the big comparison. I'm surprised that at least #1 isn't posted with the new "tones."

And as a general comment (I think I made this in another thread somewhere, too), have you seen the tones in all of the recent books? They're basically non-existant. Compare Vol. 4 #1 to Vol. 4 #28 and you'll see a stark contrast (which, honestly, does not work in Jim Lawson's favor). If you're patient enough to flip through all the books inbetween you'll see the gradual degradation of the amount and quality of the tones. It makes me wonder if Peter hit his head and one day and woke up thinking tones = BAD.

The extensive use of tones and shading in the upcoming Tales #36 is one reason why I'm looking forward to that book with more optimism than I've had for any other recent Mirage publication.

[Andrew NDB]

Molly, I heard the big mean Mr. Laird is redoing all of my Volume 1 of TMNT, and he's coming here to burn our copies!



I've heard the same thing... Joey, did you hear that noise???



Rahhhh!!! I'm comin' to take your old comics away, tones and all!!!



Heeeeereee's Peeeter!!! Make with the original copies of Volume 1 immediately!

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Part of what made the original comics so gorgeous in my opinion was HOW THEY WERE TONED. The feel was grungier, fuller. You can't **** all over that, just... replacing it with that cheap-charlie "tone" job. I can't see the logic in it. Why? Does anyone know why? To begin with, all this "fixing" of existing twenty-year old material is awful. It's one thing to add stuff in, perhaps for a special version. But detracting from the original material???? What the hell?

My one hope is that perhaps Roseangelo is completely wrong and Murphy (is he around) will come in and save the day and tell us that this is all BS and no one is insane enough to redo the original tones and of course that we know nothing since we don't work at Mirage.

Honestly, I don't see how a grungy look affects the story. And that's all I care about, the story.

[Fledermaus]

Yeah man. Totally. I mean, **** art. Who cares about that visual crap anyways?...

The comic book is primarily a visual medium. True, story is the backbone, but the art is what turns that story into a GRAPHIC novel. If all you care about is a story and don't give a rip for accompanying images, go find yourself a Levitz Paradigm and drool over that for a few hours.

Novels are great, too. So are radio plays.

[DrSpengler]

Yeah, the basic formula for a comic is pretty simple.

"Combine equal parts art and story."

Comics contain artwork. If the artwork is BAD it can ruin a comic. If you don't think artwork is important when it comes to comic books, then you really don't understand comic books at all.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

You treat the fans like **** just because you think you can makes me think your a douche or a jew like I called him earlier.

Uh, if I were a moderator I'd give you a warning for that ...

And here is a reason why Pete might dislike Dave Sim (sorry for the URL of the site that hosts it) ...

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Yeah, the basic formula for a comic is pretty simple.

"Combine equal parts art and story."

Comics contain artwork. If the artwork is BAD it can ruin a comic. If you don't think artwork is important when it comes to comic books, then you really don't understand comic books at all.

I'd be inclined to agree.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Uh, if I were a moderator I'd give you a warning for that ...

And here is a reason why Pete might dislike Dave Sim (sorry for the URL of the site that hosts it) ...

um ok I just skimmed over that really annoyingly long rant and didn't see mention of ninja turtles, mirage, or anyone related to mirage...so why would Peter Laird get angry and hate Dave Sim over his comments over feminists?
I mean unless I missed something but I don't have time to sit and read that long as rambling of his..

[Fledermaus]

My my... *reads over Mr. Sim's article*

I think this pretty much explains it. However, the way it looks now is that Laird chose to censor twenty year old work for political reasons. I mean I understand if Laird disagrees with the man -- I disagree with him. I think he is logically and morally wrong, at least in several issues he mentions. But even so, I don't believe that's enough incentive for censoring original material after twenty years. Were there strong anti-feminist elements in issue 8?

EDIT: Actually... censoring artwork, especially after it's existed this long, is just as wrong as anything Mr. Sim has spouted off in his personal politics rant.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

My my... *reads over Mr. Sim's article*

I think this pretty much explains it. However, the way it looks now is that Laird chose to censor twenty year old work for political reasons. I mean I understand if Laird disagrees with the man -- I disagree with him. I think he is logically and morally wrong, at least in several issues he mentions. But even so, I don't believe that's enough incentive for censoring original material after twenty years. Were there strong anti-feminist elements in issue 8?

um why in the world would peter laird care about that in the first place he's never even mentioned womens rights I don't think he has anyways like ever.
Next excuse please

[Rooish]

No, no, I can just see Laird, who's pretty "progressive," holding a grudge against Dave for all that ... he's had other, uh, controversial viewpoints, besides the feminist thing.

Cerebus is a damn fine comic though ...

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Rooish

No, no, I can just see Laird, who's pretty "progressive," holding a grudge against Dave for all that ... he's had other, uh, controversial viewpoints, besides the feminist thing.

Cerebus is a damn fine comic though ...

Well he could but I really don't think that's the reason...I mean I've never even read peter talking about women before let alone feminism...so who knows I mean it's peters life. *shruggs*...
And yeah it's pretty good I agree I still like old mirage tmnt allot more though.

[Fledermaus]

Yeah. Dave is also an anti-commie by the looks of it. I think that did it. Some people get really really tense about those subjects, just like capitalists might shut out people who are anti-capitalist.

And let us not get into personal arguments on politics. Please?

[DrSpengler]

Removing Cerebus from TMNT #8 just because Laird disagrees with Sim's political views seems like the definition of "petty".

But then, we're all just making assumptions here, so for all we know Sim could have run over Laird's dog or slugged him in the face at a kegger and THAT might be why he's cutting all ties with the man. We really don't have much of a clue.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Removing Cerebus from TMNT #8 just because Laird disagrees with Sim's political views seems like the definition of "petty".

But then, we're all just making assumptions here, so for all we know Sim could have run over Laird's dog or slugged him in the face at a kegger and THAT might be why he's cutting all ties with the man. We really don't have much of a clue.

now that I want to see! some one get fox on the phone!

[Roseangelo]

Yeah, I think jumping to the conclusion that his reasoning for removing Cerebus is politically driven is jumping a bit too far. He might just think it's better without Cerebus.

Why is he retoning the whole darn thing? Best I can tell, because he thinks it's better that way. He doesn't need anymore reason than that.

Although I still think both changes are crazy and stupid and petty and insulting and... well, you get the idea.

[Fledermaus]

Okay... so by now we "know" certain things are happening with the old comics. But no one "knows" why a character is being removed and why beautiful tones are being scrapped in favor of... cheaper-to-print comics? Has anyone bothered asking?

EDIT: And you know, still... regardless of the why, this still blows. I want to know why because I'm curious and want to try to understand what's going on. Not because I think it will make me change my mind and say OOOOOOhhhhhhh. Okay then. Hack away!

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Okay... so by now we "know" certain things are happening with the old comics. But no one knows why a character is being removed and why beautiful tones are being scrapped in favor of... cheaper-to-print comics? Has anyone bothered asking?

Nope and I don't think we will get a straight forward answere...personally myself and allot of others think it has something to do with Kevin Eastman and Peter but who really knows I'm not saying it's fact here people but hell it very well could be.
Or it could just be as simple as that Peter thinks computers are grand and snazy and the way to go. me I think.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

Or it could just be as simple as that Peter thinks computers are grand and snazy and the way to go.

It is honestly one of my fears that he figured out how to work Photoshop and decided everything would be better if everything was Photoshopped.