Raphael - turtle of a thousand faces

[triplexxx]

Well, as I said before, this break-up never would've happened in the first place if it hadn't been for Splinter. Also, how can anyone help mend the family while one of them isn't even home for a whole year; it takes everyone's efforts to mend the family, and it's impossible to do when one of them isn't even there. And maybe Splinter could've tried talking to him; I mean, he's the father, he's makes the decisions for the family, he decides what his sons are or aren't allowed to do, so maybe he could try making an effort to reach out instead of sitting on his meditative behind not doing jack for his family.

[Spawn Guy]

So Raph gets off the hook for not only "doing jack" but actually decrying Leo and Don when any mention is made of them as a team? And yeah, I think the whole reaching out thing is a two way street. If Splinter is expected to make the effort I don't see why Raph or the other two couldn't, even and especially with Leo gone. It might take the whole family to fully heal, but there's no reason for the other three to not make any effort to keep it together.

And seeting Leo, the other reason there's a nice big long gap for them to fall apart over, sounds like making a desicion to help the family to me.

[triplexxx]

Well, as Donatello mentioned, he and Michaelangleo were contributing to the family. And in a way, Raphael was contributing by picking up where the others left off by tending to the city's problems so that things don't get too messy for them when they're all back together again. And of course, Leonardo's working to be a better leader and member on the team.
Thereby, I see everyone doing something for the family, except Splinter, and what did you mean by "seeting", what's that mean?

So Raph gets off the hook for not only "doing jack" but actually decrying Leo and Don when any mention is made of them as a team?

Well, maybe that's where he made the mistake. I mean he was correct when he said "this team doesn't exist" because they're not all there, but he should've taken it out on the source of the problem, his father, not his brothers. When they train and contribute to the family, they're supposed to do it "together", that way they don't lose their sense of unity.

[Buslady]

IMO...the whole thing is Splinter's fault.
He failed to continue training with the others. Do we see any training? No. All he does is sit on his butt or do Tai Chi...Mike even says he was training, his fingers with a game controller. Daddy wasn't keeping them in line. They fell apart. Raph, bored does his own thing. They don't question him being in bed all day, out all night? Don't they wonder what he's doing?

[Spawn Guy]

Setting. Sorry, typo. And that was kind of my point, they could have done more, even with Leo not there. Something along the lines of "Master Splinter, I really don't think that's a good idea." Hell, maybe they did and it didn't work, but I'm not getting that impression when Raph spooks Don to prove bullying is an approprite way to act.

[triplexxx]

"Setting Leonardo", "Master it's not a good idea?"->what's not a good idea? Sorry if I sound nieve, I'm still kind of confused what your saying here.

[Spawn Guy]

Okay

Splinter sets Leonardo about tryint to pull the team back together: The rooftop training, going out to look for Raph. Basically it's the results of that scene in Splinter's room where he and Leo reunite. You know "I'm sure things will be back to normal Sensi."

As for the "Not a good idea" part, maye Raph, or even Leo, or any of the four of them could have said something along those lines: why one of the family and one of the team shouldn't have gone off to South America. If Splinter's getting no objections he's not really going to reconsider a plan that sounds good on paper. And for their to be ojections we have to assume the TMNT thought about the potential danger there.

And your hardly coming off as niave at all.

[Time Mistress]

Wow, so much to talk about. I don't know where to begin.

I guess I'll start with Raph in each medium:

Old Toon - least fave overall, though he became my fave for a little while in seasons 4 & 5 after I saw the first movie despite the differences in personality, so it varies. I love whoever said (Jenna I think) OT Raph is like Raph if he could have as close to a normal life as possible (sorry I can't remember the exact words) but I thought that was a brilliant way to put it and reconcile some of my disapointment of OT Raph, cause Raph deserves to be happy.

All 4 movies - fave
Mirage - fave/tied with Mike
New toon - fave/tied with Mike
Archie - fave

I think Raph's problem can be summed up in three words - Jan Brady syndrome. "It's always Leo, Leo, Leo."

But I also think that Raph's concerns about a normal life and knowing he can't have one because he's a mutant is such a powerful theme for him (and for all of them). Sons of the Silent Age, the first Mirage issue I read really hits that home. It's the same theme that makes the X-Men so powerful and long lasting, but I think TMNT drives the alienation point home all the more. Only 198? Try being 4! I don't know who else here reads X-Men but I became a huge fan of Wolverine because he reminded me so much of Raph (though I know the original influence was the other way around.) The following was said to sum up Logan, but I think it applies just as well to the contradictions of Raphael on most counts:

"Super hero and outlaw. Moral philosopher and psychotic. Loner and family man. A protector of society who feels ill at ease with it. A breaker of rules who binds himself to a code of honor. (World famous adventurer who hides behind a false identity.) Savage killer of criminals and kind friend to children. Beast and man. In one person."

Warhorse also made a great point about Raph befriending the most people of the four which seems like it would be Mike's department, but I guess not. Raph's befriended - Casey, Lucindra, April in the first film, Keno, Yoshi in the 3rd film, Traximus, Tyler, Mona Lisa, Ninjara, and Shadow. And I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

[Spawn Guy]

The Foot in Vil 3? They were practically holding tea parties! What's cutting a line and letting someone almost fall to their death between friends?

[triplexxx]

As for the "Not a good idea" part, maye Raph, or even Leo, or any of the four of them could have said something along those lines: why one of the family and one of the team shouldn't have gone off to South America. If Splinter's getting no objections he's not really going to reconsider a plan that sounds good on paper. And for their to be ojections we have to assume the TMNT thought about the potential danger there.

I see what you're saying now. About the "no objections" thing, maybe that is a fault of the turtles. I find them to be somewhat blindly obedient to Splinter, they'll just take for granted anything he says, thinking he always knows best. But he doesn't always know best, he made the mistake here, and they were the one who had to suffer for believing he was right.

[Scandia]

Yeah, I cannot help but wonder exactly why the other 3 Turtles did not want to keep up their training in the new movie. I read the prequel comics- but they are not quite conclusive about this.

Sounds like Splinter's plan backfired- although everything worked out in the end.

[Spawn Guy]

Yeah. Although I wonder if Leo had actually come back on schedule or if the others had made more effort (again, assuming they didn't)if it would have worked.

[triplexxx]

Well, they obviously must've still been doing some training, Raphael especially, considering how easily they were all able to get past the Foot and break into Winter's tower.

Originally Posted by Spawn Guy

Yeah. Although I wonder if Leo had actually come back on schedule or if the others had made more effort (again, assuming they didn't)if it would have worked.

Bottom line: the whole plan was faulty to begin with.

[Spawn Guy]

And he got his fare share tracking down a large amount of crime all over NY. Putting on and walking around in that suit must have been a bitch.

Bottom line: the whole plan was faulty to begin with.

I fail to see how. Other leaders do things solo to imporve their skills. Why not Leo.

[Buslady]

why the hell does splinter expect leo to 'bring back the team' so to speak, i felt like yelling at him get off your fat rat @$$ and you do it!!!!

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Spawn Guy

I fail to see how. Other leaders do things solo to imporve their skills. Why not Leo.

Because like I said above, their training is most effective for ALL of them when they do it "together". Without his brothers, Leonardo would be nothing, same goes for the other turtles; without each other, they'd be nothing. They've all helped make each other who they are.

[Spawn Guy]

Originally Posted by Buslady

why the hell does splinter expect leo to 'bring back the team' so to speak, i felt like yelling at him get off your fat rat @$$ and you do it!!!!

New appreciation for his brothers. Maybe.

Because like I said above, their training is most effective for ALL of them when they do it "together". Without his brothers, Leonardo would be nothing, same goes for the other turtles; without each other, they'd be nothing. They've all helped make each other who they are.

See above. I think that would help Leo appreciate that.

And maybe if we could all think of the TMNT as individuals for a moment here, training on his own was for Leonardo, not the TMNT.

[triplexxx]

If Leonardo can train on his own, any of them could. Where they do so is irrelevant. They're all excellent warriors, they're all self-sufficient, and they all have survival skills. Anyway, it's useless unless they train together, as this movie showed.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Spawn Guy

Okay

Splinter sets Leonardo about tryint to pull the team back together: The rooftop training, going out to look for Raph. Basically it's the results of that scene in Splinter's room where he and Leo reunite. You know "I'm sure things will be back to normal Sensi."

As for the "Not a good idea" part, maye Raph, or even Leo, or any of the four of them could have said something along those lines: why one of the family and one of the team shouldn't have gone off to South America. If Splinter's getting no objections he's not really going to reconsider a plan that sounds good on paper. And for their to be ojections we have to assume the TMNT thought about the potential danger there.

And your hardly coming off as niave at all.

You know what. Your phrase just gave me a huge brain storm. If they were to generate a sequel, and I know how we would love to see the City at War arc, but that aside, why not have Splinter send all of his sons out on some sort of quest to find them selves out in the world, but in a team like setting? Kind of like the ninja tribunal thing is about. (To be honest, that would have been a killer story for this movie as well, have them all go out to become stronger and more independent, learning new techniques on their own away from his guidence and councel.)

Just a thought.

[triplexxx]

Well, that sounds perfect, just gotta hope they make Splinter a bit smarter "upstairs" next movie, kiddin (not about your idea). But still, it'd make an intriguing story, and it could be somewhat different/unique/new from what they've done before in the cartoons and previous movies. It's always nice to expand horizons.