Healthcare reform

[Peanut]

You guys remember that time I got warned for making fun of Jesus? Good times.

[Barkworm]

So, what about that article I posted? Nothing from the anti-healthcare people about that?

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Barkworm

So, what about that article I posted? Nothing from the anti-healthcare people about that?

It's not shocking. Hell I bet more people die from malpractice.

[Newton Gimmick]

Originally Posted by Barkworm

So, what about that article I posted? Nothing from the anti-healthcare people about that?

Most anti-Healthcare people don't have points. Or if they do it's with logic holes you could drive a MAC truck through.

Someone said earlier about how Obama is spending too much money, as if he didn't come into the biggest recession in recent history? I know, that's his fault too, right? How do you get out of something like that? Typically spending money on reconstruction and big projects. The fact that the economy is showing signs of recovery already says it was the right thing to do.

Thus far Obama has done a good job sticking to many of his major ideas and given that he's been in for a little under a year, that's a pretty good sign.

The guy who writes Obama off at 9 months as "someone you can't trust because of his past actions" is pretty short sighted. No one cn do much in 9 months as President and if you're comparing him to previous Presidents, he's worked to get a lot done in a short span of time.

[ThirdMarioBro]

For the moment. I'm going to set aside the health care debate. Obama's FCC chair just announced the unveiling of some new (strict) net neutrality provisions to be announced Monday. Presumably, it will protect internet freedom across all networks, including wireless networks (the current hot-spot for corperate web content filtering *coughiphonecough*. This was the primary issue that decided my voting in the primaries for Obama. Should this go through, he will have fulfilled his commitment to the geek community.

I'm sure the telecom industry and their brain-washed conservative supporters will try to spin it as a government takeover of the internet, possibly throwing some Chinese federal censorship references in there, even though the whole purpose of net neutrality is to protect us from corporate filtering and throttling of web content (which has already been quietly tested by most all of the major providers in small communities). The fight for internet freedom is about to begin. Obama certainly has a lot on his plate, but I'm sure as hell glad he's finally stepping up to the plate on this issue.

[Mecha Cow]

but if a poster blasphemes or takes the name in vain, dont i have the right to respond in a civil way

No, as per the forum rules. Also, blasphemy and such are a matter of perspective. Most people do not mean to "take the Lord's name in vain" when they mention Jesus, and you can't expect them to adhere to your personal standards on the matter. No one has the right to insult your beliefs either, but I don't see that happening here.

Again, you have been civil, but it's simply against the rules. Religion is a very sensitive, personal issue that makes for unpleasant conversations, even if people are respectful about it. That's why it's not allowed, no matter the reason. Please let it go.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by Newton Gimmick

Most anti-Healthcare people don't have points. Or if they do it's with logic holes you could drive a MAC truck through.

Someone said earlier about how Obama is spending too much money, as if he didn't come into the biggest recession in recent history? I know, that's his fault too, right? How do you get out of something like that? Typically spending money on reconstruction and big projects. The fact that the economy is showing signs of recovery already says it was the right thing to do.

Thus far Obama has done a good job sticking to many of his major ideas and given that he's been in for a little under a year, that's a pretty good sign.

The guy who writes Obama off at 9 months as "someone you can't trust because of his past actions" is pretty short sighted. No one cn do much in 9 months as President and if you're comparing him to previous Presidents, he's worked to get a lot done in a short span of time.

You've never learned economics, have you? Do you honestly think the economy is recovering? I see no signs of that. Things are still getting worse, not better. Obama may have inherited problems, but he's making them worse, not better. When you're in debt, you cut your spending, not increase it on pork-barrel projects. If you're referring to FDR, he failed to get us out of the Great Depression. In fact, most people had become disillusioned with the New Deal. It was World War Two that saved us. Any historian can tell you that.

Obama sticking to his major ideas? Name a promise he kept. Is he closing Guantanamo Bay? Is the economy improving? Is the USA looking better to the world? (Yeah, the love Obama, but they despise us more than ever.) Is anything getting better? Ever looked at his current popularity ratings? Dropping like a stone.

We may be short-sighted, but anyone who still supports him is absolutely blind.

[Leo656]

I'll chime in that NJ's state economy is pretty much the worst it's ever been and not looking at any improvements in the near future. My whole company just came back to work in June, and we're already being told to get ready to go back on unemployment. Most of us exhausted our benefits over winter/spring, so it's not an option. The movers can't find moving jobs elsewhere, the drivers can't find driving jobs elsewhere, and nobody wants to start an entirely new job at less pay. It's lousy.

I don't blame Obama, I just think he was foolish to promise a bunch of stuff he couldn't ever hope to deliver. They all do that, but his promises were SO outlandish as to be ridiculous; that's why most people I know never supported him, not because of his race, but that whole "turning back the tides/healing the Earth" spiel of his.

[Anarky]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

When you're in debt, you cut your spending, not increase it on pork-barrel projects.

This statement is wrong.

If you're a person, saving money in times of crisis is good. If you're an economy, then it's not. You see, most economic crises come from the need of more money than is available. So with no money in circulation, and I'm not talking cash in registers and wallets, there's no money anywhere. You best battle a recession by making more money circulate, by pumping money into sectors that need it. Over here, that's usually the railways and the roadworkers, which is why we have an awesome railway network and nice roads everywhere. At the slghtest sign of internal recession, we start digging holes into roads and buying new trains to minimize the effects of a recession, as there will be more money around that can be spent and re-spent and thus keeps the market going.

If you're referring to FDR, he failed to get us out of the Great Depression. In fact, most people had become disillusioned with the New Deal. It was World War Two that saved us. Any historian can tell you that.

So you suggest what? A new war?

Obama sticking to his major ideas? Name a promise he kept. Is he closing Guantanamo Bay? Is the economy improving? Is the USA looking better to the world? (Yeah, the love Obama, but they despise us more than ever.) Is anything getting better? Ever looked at his current popularity ratings? Dropping like a stone.

That was probably Obama's real challenge. Winning the election wasn't a problem after he had Palin - who frankly scared the sh*t out of everyone with half a brain cell - as an opponent.

His problem was, from then on, to be able to fulfill his promises as quickly as possible. The thing is, he stopped just short of proclaiming himself the reincarnation of Jesus and told the people that he'd do a huge number of monumentally cool things. People being idiots and impatient want instant change, of course. Every halfeways on-this-planet-living person however knows that these things take time. Luckily, Obama has four years of time to get some things done. He's not even been in office for a year. Give the man a bit of time, he just might live up to his promises. Of course, you won't give the man time, because you don't like him, but that's cool, because he has over three more years to do stuff and there's nothing you can do about it.

By the way, many of his promises are actually feasible given a reasonable timeframe. His ideas are nothing new and have been implemented in other nations around the globe reasonably quickly and reasonably well.

But economics take time. You as a self-proclaimed expert should know that.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

You found Palin scary? Reminds me of the time my mother's cat Figaro got frightened at the sight of a caterpillar. Seriously, the reason McCain lost because the economy suddenly went into recession. I find nothing scary about Palin, but I find Obama's supporters to be very scary, knowing that they really believed he was some sort of miracle worker. In a way he is. He's making President Bush look like a model of restrain and competence.

Putting money into the economy is good, but when and where? Spending money willy-nilly makes things worse. The "Cash for Clunkers" program, which set us back billions of dollars, was simply welfare for people who could and would have bought new cars anyway. Yes, we can print money, but guess what happens when we print too much? Ever heard of high inflation? Not a problem since Reagan solved that, but old problems can always come back.

And why talk about national health care when we've got far more urgent worries right now? Obama certainly didn't make a fuss about it when he ran for office. The cynic in me suggests that he's only making a big thing of it now as a distraction from everything else that has gone wrong.

It's not that Obama is too slow in making things right. It's that we now believe he's not going to make thinghs right.

[Anarky]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

You found Palin scary? Reminds me of the time my mother's cat Figaro got frightened at the sight of a caterpillar. Seriously, the reason McCain lost because the economy suddenly went into recession. I find nothing scary about Palin, but I find Obama's supporters to be very scary, knowing that they really believed he was some sort of miracle worker. In a way he is. He's making President Bush look like a model of restrain and competence.

To a European, a religious über-nutjob like her makes Obama's "I'm Jesus V2.0" seem rather harmless in comparison.

Putting money into the economy is good, but when and where? Spending money willy-nilly makes things worse.

Precisely. That's why you set up plans to make failing industry twigs better. Over here, it's - as mentioned - roadwork and the like. It does make a lot of sense for Obama and his economic team to tackle healthcare. There are billions and billions of dollars the insurance companies have not yet made. Granted, it's not the most short-term of plans, but it will work. For more precise details, read my post on how this will play out in the end.

But yes, just spending money on random crap doesn't do any good. But spending it into the health-industry in a country where insured people are a minority: That's killing two birds with one stone. You make the people more healthy so that they can work more and better. And you completely overhaul an antique and complacent system of insurances and make them into efficient and working companies.

Ever heard of high inflation?

I have, but I really don't see how this has anything to do with the healthcare reform. The money he's willing to spend into the healthcare-sector is already floating around in circulation. So no new money will be made, no reserves needed or anything.

Besides, all the money spent will come in again manyfold quicker than in any other business deal of recent history, making this one of the most efficient and sleakest deals I've seen in quite some time, because you've suddenly opened the market to people who have been craving the product you now make available to them. Quite frankly, from an economic standpoint, it's a genius move.

And why talk about national health care when we've got far more urgent worries right now? Obama certainly didn't make a fuss about it when he ran for office. The cynic in me suggests that he's only making a big thing of it now as a distraction from everything else that has gone wrong.

Naturally, the people who are screaming bloody murder don't really help Obama to focus on other, possibly more important matters. And as a president, your people come first. If the people want to discuss healthcare, then you talk to them about healthcare. It's not rocket science. Americans and basically any people would be confused if Obama would suddenly go on about the number of donkeys in Nebraska.

If you're going to ask me about, let's say, the weather, I won't respond to you

It's not that Obama is too slow in making things right. It's that we now believe he's not going to make thinghs right.

Who's this we? Global politics and global economics believe that Obama has some seriously good ideas still up his sleeve. Americans and quite possibly the people under his communist rule usually are a bit more short-sighted and expect instant miracles. But we're going in circles. Naturally, he hasn't quite managed to turn manure into gold yet, despite probably having mentioned something along the lines during the election. But that doesn't mean he won't do it, however unlikely.

But what cracks me up here is that all those vocal oponents, of which there seem to be plenty more this time term, at least in America (whereas Bush had the War-bonus going on and the world around the USA hated him,) have three more years of mostly irrational ranting and raving to do. From an outside perspective, this is actually rather funny.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

If you're referring to FDR, he failed to get us out of the Great Depression. In fact, most people had become disillusioned with the New Deal.

Yeah, but he put people to work on projects exactly like Anarky mentioned. Blasting rock, paving roads, building parks, you know real tangible work. That saved our economy in the long run. You don't come out of a sh*t storm like the Great Depression in a few years.

And WW2 helped because WE WON.

[Leo656]

I miss Reagan. Well, the last two years not so much...

[PAAATE]

Originally Posted by Anarky

To a European, a religious über-nutjob like her makes Obama's "I'm Jesus V2.0" seem rather harmless in comparison.

Very true.

The possibility of her getting the kind of power in the world that she would get as vice president seriously frightens me, and the few friends I have who cares for international politics agree.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

This may come as a tremendous shock to you, but you non-Americans love to think you know us so well when you are actually totally clueless about us.

Palin a religious nut-job? Where do you get this from? The reality is that the most murderous and brutal dictators in human history were in fact atheists. Many people who fled to America are in fact refugees from nations where such dictators ruled. And as far as atheists are concerned, I find them worse than the worst Bible-thumpers I encountered in terms of ignorance, irrationality, and sanctimony.

Health care reform is well and good, if it's done right. But what if it costs more and in fact makes things worse, as many people fear? Yes, I already hear how Europeans are supposed to have a more effective system. But we'd like to know how things really are in national health care before we vote for it. There are plenty of horror stories about the Veterans Administration hospitals to give us pause.

[Mecha Cow]

This may come as a tremendous shock to you, but you non-Americans love to think you know us so well when you are actually totally clueless about us.

Don't start with this again.

[PAAATE]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

Palin a religious nut-job? Where do you get this from?

From the fact that she's said some pretty stupid stuff? C'mon, religion is ok, and I don't mind people having a faith at all, but someone who says that the earth is a few thousand years old can't possibly be serious... To me, that's almost Scientology-level of absurdness right there

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

The reality is that the most murderous and brutal dictators in human history were in fact atheists.

Yes, but one's religion, or lack thereof, doesn't really point to how good a leader you are... There's been some pretty horrible leaders from all religions... With the exception of Buddhism, I think... Of course, there's been good leaders from all religions, too...

But anyway, Sarah Palin, she was just... It's not even her believes that bothered me the most... You saw the interview by Katie Couric, right? Right! There you go, possible presidential material? Not really, if you ask me

[Katie]

Originally Posted by Mecha Cow

Don't start with this again.

I like how he says "us" like everyone in the country shares his viewpoint. Sure, there are people who do.....but not all of us by any means. Some of us actually like what we see going on......and were completely horrified by the prospect of someone like Palin leading our country.

[Anarky]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

This may come as a tremendous shock to you, but you non-Americans love to think you know us so well when you are actually totally clueless about us.

I might not know all the intricacies of American Culture but I do know economics, and especially global economics are - as the name implies - global. And I know those.

Palin a religious nut-job? Where do you get this from?

We got the same speeches broadcasted over here as you got in the states. The election was actually pretty well-covered due to the USA still being somewhat the driving force of this planet's happenings and all that. Besides, there was a black president to maybe be had at that point. That was big news, man.

What you got wrong here - which I might have not specifically mentioned - is that she's not a nutjob because of religion, but a nutjob in general with added religion. Religion on its own is fine and dandy if that's your thing. I know some perfectly reasonable, deeply religious people, so all evidence points to the nutjob-creating factor not being religion.

Health care reform is well and good, if it's done right. But what if it costs more and in fact makes things worse, as many people fear? Yes, I already hear how Europeans are supposed to have a more effective system. But we'd like to know how things really are in national health care before we vote for it. There are plenty of horror stories about the Veterans Administration hospitals to give us pause.

I'm pretty sure that as soon as the reform hits, at least one insurance company will go "Hey, the veterans have it bad. Let's have a special veteran's plan." Seriously, over here, there are plans for everything. I mean, how often does it happen that a girl has a body that produces little to no estrogen and require you to pop pills for the rest of your days or else your body shuts down? And there is a plan for it. Well, it falls under "Female hormonal disorders" but it's good enough.

And can we leave our respective political and religious views out of this, please? I know, I slipped up by bringing Palin into this and calling her a raving lunatic and I apologize. Let's just let Palin be ex-governor and a devout Christian in Alaska and be done with it.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I miss Reagan. Well, the last two years not so much...

You mean the Jelly Bean years