Healthcare reform

[odupianist]

Originally Posted by kyabetsu

It's easier to eat healthy, care about exercise, and give up smoking when you're employed, not strung out about where next month's rent will come from, able to afford vegetables and real meal rather than ramen, and stable enough to make healthy choices for yourself. You can't force people to make those changes, but you can give them the option.

Actually I was unemployed for a few months earlier this year. I had no insurance, no idea where morgage was coming from at all, and busting butt to find a new job. I took it upon myself to work out more (mainly to keep my mind off the fact I was jobless), and take better care of myself because I didn't have those things, and it was all I had to myself really. It was my own personal strength that helped me make the choices to take care of myself and not get strung out just because I was unemployed. But I'll agree that everyone handles stress differently. The option is still there to always take care of yourself (in all aspects, mentally, physically, emotionally) whether you have money or not. It just takes the desire and want to do so.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by ThirdMarioBro

Well, we can at least agree on that point.

There are quite a number of political commentators who agree with us on that point as well. It's why the Republicans got voted out-they stopped listening to their supporters.

[kyabetsu]

Originally Posted by odupianist

The option is still there to always take care of yourself (in all aspects, mentally, physically, emotionally) whether you have money or not. It just takes the desire and want to do so.

Yes, you're right. The option make healthy choices is always there.

It's just considerably more remote if you were doing all that self-improvement (kudos to you, by the way, that kind of resolve deserves applause) if you're doing it in spite of a medical condition.

We were talking about affordable health care, so consider a hypothetical version of your scenario where 'diet & exercise' weren't enough to keep you healthy. Unemployed, uninsured, with a spine injury? with a dangerous pregnancy (which you would have been able to afford if there weren't so many scary complications with your baby's--and your--life)? with a sudden inexplicable blindness that might have been preventable if you had enough $$?

Medicare is for the elderly. And Medicaid is damn near impossible to qualify for. So don't think of those as options. There are doctors who do offer a discount on their services to the uninsured, but not all of them, and the diagnostic tests are never cheap.

So, you're exercising (as best you can) and you're eating right (with what you can afford) and you're looking for work (if you can still do work) and the medical bills are piling up and it's not just your mortgage you're worried about anymore...

I can see your argument having merit if we were talking about straight welfare. You had normal expenses and you still had yourself.

What if you don't have 'yourself?' Major illness takes that from you.

Health care isn't for 'lazy people' or 'unmotivated people.' It's for sick folks. Who are already functioning under some massive set-backs, which, by their very nature, snowball over time as the bills mount higher and the person's health bars them from gaining real, meaningful employment.


I admire your strength getting yourself out of a poor situation. No sarcasm, that's awesome for you!

Thing is, not everyone can reach their own bootstrap. Not out of some personal failing, but because of larger circumstances. I'm living proof that giving some one help does not mean they will be reliant on the system for the rest of their lives. It just means that they have a rest of their lives.


I respect that your opinion won't suddenly swing in the other direction, but if I helped you consider the other side of things, that's all I can ask.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by odupianist

The option is still there to always take care of yourself (in all aspects, mentally, physically, emotionally) whether you have money or not. It just takes the desire and want to do so.

Yeah, well, not everyone is born healthy, you know, so getting some medical care would be appreciated by those people, I'm sure.

[愛]

Originally Posted by TheCure

Yeah, well, not everyone is born healthy, you know, so getting some medical care would be appreciated by those people, I'm sure.

Yeah, sure, you and your fake disease. lololololol

[Cure]

It's better than yellow fever. Loooooooooooooooooooolz.

[愛]

Oh, I SERIOUSLY doubt that.

[Anarky]

Originally Posted by odupianist

Actually I was unemployed for a few months earlier this year. I had no insurance, no idea where morgage was coming from at all, and busting butt to find a new job. I took it upon myself to work out more (mainly to keep my mind off the fact I was jobless), and take better care of myself because I didn't have those things, and it was all I had to myself really. It was my own personal strength that helped me make the choices to take care of myself and not get strung out just because I was unemployed. But I'll agree that everyone handles stress differently. The option is still there to always take care of yourself (in all aspects, mentally, physically, emotionally) whether you have money or not. It just takes the desire and want to do so.

Heh, having a bit of experience in terms of unemployment, I can safely say that that's not always the case. The first couple of weeks, even months at times are fun. You sleep in, you cook, you do nice things. But when you run out of money, like in the serious way where you're actually struggling to pay bills, then you're screwed.

I mean, back in the day, I've had to share my plate of spaghetti with the dog, because we were both hungry. We lived off Ramen for months. My health really declined during that time, too. It wasn't really the stress. It was just that there was no food I could buy. Nothing. Couple packets or Ramen with water and some - but not enough - dry food for the dog. Broke my heart, I tell you, to see the little guy go hungry, but that's neither here nor there. I still went to training and everything, but I fell behind because I just couldn't focus at times anymore.

And no, unemployment is not covered by any form of health-care.

[Leo656]

I just can't help but foresee the possibility of private insurers - who make no mistake, I am no fan of - get squeezed out by the cheaper public option. Once that happens, there isn't even the semblance of "competition", just a gov't-run system. And it's not like it's impossible or could never happen. Every contractor I've spoken to is sticking their workers on the public option if they can, even the ones that hate the idea. Why? To save money. It's kinda like throwing your candy wrapper on the ground instead of in the trash; maybe no big deal if it's just you, but what about when everyone does it?

Competition is great, but gov't programs do tend to be overwhelmingly inefficient at best and incompetent at worst, so I just can't see any easy way of sticking 20 million people on gov't coverage without some serious snafus.

And that's not even mentioning the fact that care rationing can, does, and will happen. No doubt, it happens right now under our current system. But when it's the gov't that's telling you what doctors to see and when, and what you can and can't receive... yeah, I don't like that. My dad was glad when he finally got coverage, but right away he had to switch from the doctors he'd always had to ones that were "approved", and that was more than a little annoying. A big part of health care is trust, and you can't deny that more than a few people are distrustful of ANYthing the gov't does.

As for Obama promising every single hour that "his" plan won't be corrupt, or inefficient, or cover ANY illegals, or cost "one dime" more... yeah, that doesn't help. Full disclosure: In case it wasn't obvious, I do not like the man. I don't approve of how he got his start in politics, I don't like his ACORN/Weather Underground cronies, I don't like how he apologizes for the everything the U.S. ever did like we're always the bad guy, but mostly, I cannot stand the way he promises things that are impossible for anyone to oversee or deliver. People act like he isn't as dirty or dishonest as anyone else in politics, but he is. If you subscribe to the theory "show me your friends and I will tell you who you are", he's even dirtier, he just was smart enough to stay *just* far away from the people doing the *really* bad things, so that he could keep playing his "I had no idea..." spiel. So no, I'm not impressed by him. Maybe he'll do a good job, god knows he's got another 7 1/2 years (after all the fuss made over him we almost have no choice but to re-elect him). But every time the man talks, his nose grows, and people are starting to notice and get fed up with it.

So a big, BIG part of the people's rejection of his plan is b/c of HIM, and not b/c of race as Rangel and Paterson keep insisting, but because the guy who swore he'd never ever lie to us has been exposed repeatedly as just another politician.

Bottom line: things are gonna change one way or another b/c they have to, but you can't blame people for being skeptical about HOW. If a public option remains just that, an option, that's one thing. But if the day comes that it's the ONLY option, and it turns out to be not a very good one, there's gonna be a whole lotta pissed-off people saying "I told ya so" b/c that's all anyone in this country seems to be good at anymore.

And kya: excellent insights, but when you quoted me you lopped off the part about "those gargantuan Swedes". That part was vital to the core message. Please try to quote me in full in the future. Oh, and on that note, I also wish for midgets to be left out of any public option, too, on account of they scare me. And while I'm discriminating, we should exclude anyone with a lisp, as all they really need is someone to give 'em a good smack in the mouth and yell "Don't TALK like that!" and they'll be fine.

[Anarky]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I just can't help but foresee the possibility of private insurers - who make no mistake, I am no fan of - get squeezed out by the cheaper public option. Once that happens, there isn't even the semblance of "competition", just a gov't-run system. And it's not like it's impossible or could never happen. Every contractor I've spoken to is sticking their workers on the public option if they can, even the ones that hate the idea. Why? To save money. It's kinda like throwing your candy wrapper on the ground instead of in the trash; maybe no big deal if it's just you, but what about when everyone does it?

For the sake of not having to type it all out again, I'll quote an earlier post of mine.

What American probably doesn't realize yet is that there is not just "one healthcare." Over here, we have a million different plans for everything, going from blindness over astma to chronic fungus infections. That happened as a response to the public option, which nobody really uses anymore.

Yes, there will be a huge market shift. And yes, some insurance companies will die, namely the ones who are in it for profit only and have grown to need the insane amount of money people pay them. Before they fold, they will most likely be bought by another insurance company that had the ability to adapt better.

Those companies will have to lower their plans, obviously, because otherwise, everyone would go to the government. Either that, or they increase their service and all that. This leads to a better service at the private companies than what you get with the government, more or less at the same price.

This again, will lead to people abandoning the public option and going for the private ones again, because they maybe have a better plan for families with children or people who need extensive dental work or any other kind of social or health-related situation you can think of, while the governmental plan will be a solid, but minimalist general plan. That's what's happened over here. I'm not really unhealthy, so I'm on a general plan with a private company. My ex-girlfriend has a body that doesn't produce estrogen, so she has to eat a handful of pills every day or her body goes into shock. So she's at some other company that have a good plan for hormonal things or womanly issues.

So all in all, this will not lead to a crushing of the insurance business, but rather a diversification. This is good. I'd go for that.

Competition is great, but gov't programs do tend to be overwhelmingly inefficient at best and incompetent at worst, so I just can't see any easy way of sticking 20 million people on gov't coverage without some serious snafus.

As with any system newly introduced, some things will go wrong, some abuse will be had. But these short-term obstacles shouldn't prevent anyone from getting a good long-term solution.

And that's not even mentioning the fact that care rationing can, does, and will happen. No doubt, it happens right now under our current system. But when it's the gov't that's telling you what doctors to see and when, and what you can and can't receive... yeah, I don't like that.

Normally, in these systems, when you sign a healthcare plan, you need to name a general physician who then becomes your "Home Doctor" (the translation sucks, I know) but basically, he's the guy you first go to when something's wrong unless you're bleeding heavily and you need a hospital. They're cool with any doctor as long as you have a medical degree. Over here, they went as far as saying "Okay, name a doctor, a dentist and an eye-doctor" (in my case, because one-eye-blind and all. You could name a lung-doctor too, if you wanted.

My dad was glad when he finally got coverage, but right away he had to switch from the doctors he'd always had to ones that were "approved", and that was more than a little annoying. A big part of health care is trust, and you can't deny that more than a few people are distrustful of ANYthing the gov't does.

That is the problem with the private insurance people since they basically have deals with Doctor X and so they send all people there. However, the government has absolutely no interest in making deals with Doctor X because they're so far above and beyond cheapass deals with doctors that it doesn't matter anymore.

I don't like how he apologizes for the everything the U.S. ever did like we're always the bad guy

Heh, we have a similar case over here right now where we arrested Gadaffi's son and threw him in jail for attacking embassy personnel. So we humbly apologized for having laws, so I see what you mean.

The problem is, the USA needs serious brownie points with everyone these days. I know, they shouldn't but that doesn't change reality as we have it. The Bush Administration pretty much wrecked any opinion anyone might ever have had about the USA. Nowadays, the old world sees you as cruel, inhuman warmongers hell-bent on world domination. I blame the media entirely, but that's the way it is. Therefore, an apology or two might not be the worst idea at the moment.

Of course, every American and fairly educated person on the planet knows that the warmonger-image is quite far from the truth and world-domination would - if achieved... Ha Ha. - only be a side-effect. But that's the image you have right now. Again, perceived truth and reality differ greatly.

And I don't see anything good in further escalating the whole Islam-conflict. Just carefully de-escalate that crap and be done with it.

People act like he isn't as dirty or dishonest as anyone else in politics, but he is. If you subscribe to the theory "show me your friends and I will tell you who you are", he's even dirtier, he just was smart enough to stay *just* far away from the people doing the *really* bad things, so that he could keep playing his "I had no idea..." spiel.

Heh, that I can see. I don't trust the man either, so I don't go "Trust Obama!" but "Get that healthcare thing." Obama might be the one with the initial idea and from what I've read so far, it sounds like a good idea. And it will stick around way longer than he will.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by Anarky

The problem is, the USA needs serious brownie points with everyone these days. I know, they shouldn't but that doesn't change reality as we have it. The Bush Administration pretty much wrecked any opinion anyone might ever have had about the USA. Nowadays, the old world sees you as cruel, inhuman warmongers hell-bent on world domination. I blame the media entirely, but that's the way it is. Therefore, an apology or two might not be the worst idea at the moment.

Of course, every American and fairly educated person on the planet knows that the warmonger-image is quite far from the truth and world-domination would - if achieved... Ha Ha. - only be a side-effect. But that's the image you have right now. Again, perceived truth and reality differ greatly.

And I don't see anything good in further escalating the whole Islam-conflict. Just carefully de-escalate that crap and be done with it.

The world hates us as it always hates us-because of penis envy, not because of the Bush administration or our supposed overthrow of democratically elected governments (and yes, those stories are pure malarkey.) And this whole global warming crap is just another pretext to hate us-we're to blame for your bad weather. Oh, you needed us to help you in Yugoslavia because you couldn't do it yourselves. The reality is you hate us because you need us more than we need you.

And we didn't start the Islam conflist-they did. They're the one who bombed and slaughtered us without provocation. We have the right to defend ourselves, and it doesn't matter to us what you think of us. You've hated us until you needed us in the past, and then you'll do it in the future. And they wonder why we Americans don't give a hoot about world opinion.

[Mecha Cow]

The world hates us as it always hates us-because of penis envy

Enough of this. You do not speak on behalf of the United States, you do not speak on behalf of the world; you do not speak on behalf of anyone but yourself, period. Stop speaking in terms of "us" and "them": this is the exact sort of attitude that creates division, tension and conflict. It is extremely offensive. We are f*cking people, not flags. Don't be a tool. Jesus Christ.

[GK Punk]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

The world hates us as it always hates us-because of penis envy,

Just stop. Seriously. Your doing nothing but causing conflict at this point.

[Peanut]

As a rule, I have never (and will never) get involved with these idiotic conflicts. These types of conversations rarely stay intelligent and civil in the real world, let alone over the Internet.

However, I have to say...Type 97, shut the f*ck up, old man.

[kyabetsu]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I just can't help but foresee the possibility of private insurers - who make no mistake, I am no fan of - get squeezed out by the cheaper public option. Once that happens, there isn't even the semblance of "competition", just a gov't-run system. And it's not like it's impossible or could never happen. Every contractor I've spoken to is sticking their workers on the public option if they can, even the ones that hate the idea. Why? To save money. It's kinda like throwing your candy wrapper on the ground instead of in the trash; maybe no big deal if it's just you, but what about when everyone does it?

Leo, this is America. We brought the world "ShamWow," Baconnaise, the jet-powered surfboard, and the User-Operated Amusement Apparatus for Kicking the Users Buttocks.

If our godless, greedy, predatory business community can't find a way to take advantage of the weakness of health care industry giants who have dominated the field for the past decade? Then we're seriously losing our touch. The "Give a Hoot; Don't Pollute" campaign totally put municipal trash can manufacturers into some serious bank.

Capitalism: Some one ALWAYS profits.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Competition is great, but gov't programs do tend to be overwhelmingly inefficient at best and incompetent at worst, so I just can't see any easy way of sticking 20 million people on gov't coverage without some serious snafus.

OH YES. That will happen. Just like it happens when a major company changes its health care provider or when a minor company changes health care providers... or when one person changes... really, health care companies are crap about coordinating anything with anyone.

I'm willing to believe that after the initial wave of screwed up sign-ups and transfers finally subsides, the system will be just as efficient as Kaiser Permanente. Which doesn't say much, but it can't be much worse.

I would hope that enough forethought would go into the process to set up a very large 'trouble-shooting' branch for the public health care administration. Something that started with loads of staffers, but reassigned them as the initial influx of folks tapered off. Perhaps re-locating them into case management as more people were successfully enrolled in the program?

Originally Posted by Leo656

And that's not even mentioning the fact that care rationing can, does, and will happen. No doubt, it happens right now under our current system. But when it's the gov't that's telling you what doctors to see and when, and what you can and can't receive... yeah, I don't like that. My dad was glad when he finally got coverage, but right away he had to switch from the doctors he'd always had to ones that were "approved", and that was more than a little annoying. A big part of health care is trust, and you can't deny that more than a few people are distrustful of ANYthing the gov't does.

Any changed health plan requires this, though. And sometimes, health care companies undergo restructuring and you've gotta change your doctor anyways. Or worse, they just drop you.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Bottom line: things are gonna change one way or another b/c they have to, but you can't blame people for being skeptical about HOW. If a public option remains just that, an option, that's one thing. But if the day comes that it's the ONLY option, and it turns out to be not a very good one, there's gonna be a whole lotta pissed-off people saying "I told ya so" b/c that's all anyone in this country seems to be good at anymore.

AGREEMENT! Skepticism is great! You can't have democracy without it. Solid, rational concerns (like yours) are the kind of things that should shape the final product. You can't avoid problems if you're not watching out for them.

And if we get crapped on, then 'I told ya so,' is entirely appropriate. It'll be time to try something else.

Originally Posted by Leo656

And kya: excellent insights, but when you quoted me you lopped off the part about "those gargantuan Swedes". That part was vital to the core message. Please try to quote me in full in the future. Oh, and on that note, I also wish for midgets to be left out of any public option, too, on account of they scare me. And while I'm discriminating, we should exclude anyone with a lisp, as all they really need is someone to give 'em a good smack in the mouth and yell "Don't TALK like that!" and they'll be fine.

Full quoteth, as requethted.



Gonna be outta town this weekend, so I'll see y'all when I get back. Everybody stay healthy.

[Sewer Bull]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

The world hates us as it always hates us-because of penis envy

Yeah, especially China and their capital funding the American treasury bonds, haha.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by Mino

Yeah, especially China and their capital funding the American treasury bonds, haha.

Oh, I wouldn't say they're doing it out of love for us. They need the US market. Also note that the President-for-life of Venezuela has kept selling us his oil, too, though he hates us so much. Why? Because we have the proper facilities to refine his high-sulfur-content oil. And the Chinese hate him!

[Sewer Bull]

Oh, I more of meant 'penis envy' here than 'hates'. You proved my point, thank you.

[Barkworm]

Type 97, just shut the f*ck up now. Enough with your ridiculous little inferiority complex....

[odupianist]

Wow, you all are making it worse by telling him to shut the eff up. If he irritates you, just ignore him. While he didn't put it the best way, he's got a point. It's funny, when some 3rd world crack of the ass country has a tsunami or earthquake, who's there to help? America. Who do they hate once they have their money? America. Who should ignore them when they request help yet hate us? America.