What do you think is the worst thing in TMNT history?

[mysterycolor]

Originally Posted by Jester

Says the guy who has been temp banned more times than he's been laid....

oh no you didnt!!!

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Killer Moth

Since we're talking recent Mirage, I'm surprised no one cited the Brain Thief. I don't hate it, yet I can see why people don't care for it.

Oh, come on. It was overpriced and didn't deliver on its intriguing premise (mostly because it was stuck into the very tightly paced Volume 2 plotline for some reason), but there's no way it's one of the worst things in the history of TMNT, or even one of the worst stories. It's just kind of mediocre and disappointing.

For a slight shift in topic, we could discuss how some concepts that received major backlash at the time, but we eventually loved them or at least, accepted them (depending on who you ask). Ch'rell, anyone? (Again, depending on who you ask.)

Fast Foward is definitely in this category. The fanbase really railed against it when it first aired, but I'll attribute a lot of that to the fact it interrupted the continuous plotline of seasons four and five. Now you'll find most Turtles fans acknowledge it's generally fun and even has some of the standout episodes of the entire 4Kids run.

Conversely, there was a time when everyone was clambering to see the missing 4Kids season five. Guess what's now fairly unanimously acknowledged as one of the worst seasons of the show.

[Killer Moth]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Oh, come on. It was overpriced and didn't deliver on its intriguing premise (mostly because it was stuck into the very tightly paced Volume 2 plotline for some reason), but there's no way it's one of the worst things in the history of TMNT, or even one of the worst stories. It's just kind of mediocre and disappointing.

Fast Foward is definitely in this category. The fanbase really railed against it when it first aired, but I'll attribute a lot of that to the fact it interrupted the continuous plotline of seasons four and five. Now you'll find most Turtles fans acknowledge it's generally fun and even has some of the standout episodes of the entire 4Kids run.

Conversely, there was a time when everyone was clambering to see the missing 4Kids season five. Guess what's now fairly unanimously acknowledged as one of the worst seasons of the show.

Don't get me started on "back in my day, comics were only 2 bucks, had decent plot/art on occasion and we liked it!" I'd probably spam up a storm.

Your point is well taken about the Brain Thief, though. It did have actual potential, but it's the execution, etc. When I wrote that, it was for more curiosity's sake -- seeing what is the general consensus as to what does and does not suck (with a dash of subjective ness) -- plus recalling the backlash at the time. Granted, I've been around for a few months, but I'm still trying to figure all that out.

Interesting point about 2003 Season 5, and admittedly, it is rather polarizing for me. Putting aside the supernatural elements (which I normally don't care for, but since the Turtles are always dealing with weirdness, it is almost a given), it was mainly the premise of "oh, by the way, did you know there is an original or another Oroku Saki? And he's an undead demon and was the greatest evil from the very beginning, but we were busy with Utrom Shredder?"

Most series, I would let it go, yet given the tight, intricate continuity that was the 2003 series -- to say nothing about disrupting the superb setting that was Season 4 -- it was no sell. It also didn't help that Tengu or Demon Shredder was even more of a bore than Ch'rell. And boy, did I miss Ch'rell after that. And, boy, did I get my wish, a few years later with Forever.

Despite all that, the season was worth it for "Membership Drive" and anytime Bishop and Baxter were involved. Some of the ideas were interesting (such as Raph's love interest being Sonya Blade), yet again, it's about execution, yada, yada. In which case, it would be the same as what was just said about "Brain Thief."

And I don't disagree about how Fast Forward has regained popularity of a sort in fandom eyes (including myself). And, as you said, I wasn't crazy about it, either, at the time, specifically for the reasons you cited. However, time helps best with perspective, especially if enough time has passed. Some seasons or series do age better than others, and some don't.

And since we've been on this side discussion about the third movie, I'll go ahead and assert my newfound appreciation. Cheap effects aside, between April being a rather active character, Raph getting true character development with his temper, a feasible non-Foot villain and time traveling mechanics that aren't total BS, it's hard to go back and say "it SUX!" so blithely. (Again, depending on who you ask or tell this to.)

Be interesting to see if this will be applied to Next Mutation, once the new DVDs are released. Maybe not "this show is awesome," but more "this show doesn't suck as much as I thought."

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Conversely, there was a time when everyone was clambering to see the missing 4Kids season five. Guess what's now fairly unanimously acknowledged as one of the worst seasons of the show.

Actually, it isn't. Season 5 is still vastly prefered over FF and BTTS.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by shuriken

BWAHAHAHA

The PSA's were cheesy yes, but that's their charm so I give em a pass.
The Next Mutation was bad, but the first Wave of toys was awesome, especially the Elite Guard (one of the most badass TMNT toys to date), so they get a pass.
All in all there are a lot of terrible things about TMNT or in the TMNT.
I can't really narrow it down but here are my top 5 worst in no particular order of terribleness.
*Rat Kings Origin Story- I had to read it to find out how ridiculous it was. Being an insane Homeless man in a silo beats the crap out of getting rat powers and squandering them in what exactly? terrible
*The Coming out of their SHell Tours and the making of the coming out of their shells tour- both made me a bit sick.
*Turtlecest
*April Being a Drawing and all the threads that made up the latter part of Volume four that never went anywhere(Although I will say Donnie killing Baxter was about 15 shades of awesome).
*Fanbase complaining before seeing/watching/reading something

You mean the 2003 Rat King Origin?

[FoxZerro]

Originally Posted by Killer Moth

As for Venus, I haven't seen enough to comment beyond "I'm fine with her general existence and using magic, but not so much of injecting her into the origin, via a retcon." I didn't care for it when Fred Wolf went there with Mondo Gecko, so I wouldn't care for the redux.

I'd almost be alright with the redux of Venus if, IF... they hadn't also shoehorned in the whole we're not really brothers bit. Before that I hadn't even considered a romantic aspect existing within the show, but after such hamfisted storytelling I couldn't help but think of it nor get it out of my head.

In regard to the movies I have to say that the worst in my opinion is Secret of the Ooze, if only because of the unresolved plot line of Prof. Jordan Perry. Had he been revealed as a Utrom at the end it would have made so much sense in terms of his character throughout the rest of the movie. While I understand why they ended up scrapping the idea for the final cut. That doesn't change the fact that throughout the entire performance in the film the actor brought these little otherworldly charms to the character so that for those watching closely the reveal at the end would have been that much sweeter.

Sorry for that rant, but its something that always bugged me.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by FoxZerro

I'd almost be alright with the redux of Venus if, IF... they hadn't also shoehorned in the whole we're not really brothers bit. Before that I hadn't even considered a romantic aspect existing within the show, but after such hamfisted storytelling I couldn't help but think of it nor get it out of my head.

In regard to the movies I have to say that the worst in my opinion is Secret of the Ooze, if only because of the unresolved plot line of Prof. Jordan Perry. Had he been revealed as a Utrom at the end it would have made so much sense in terms of his character throughout the rest of the movie. While I understand why they ended up scrapping the idea for the final cut. That doesn't change the fact that throughout the entire performance in the film the actor brought these little otherworldly charms to the character so that for those watching closely the reveal at the end would have been that much sweeter.

Sorry for that rant, but its something that always bugged me.

Jordan Perry wouldn't need to bee an Utrom, but rather just an Utrom friend.

[Newton Gimmick]

I didn't care for the payoff (April being a drawing) but that whole arc where she travels through time and becomes a roach and all that, is one of my favorite bits of TMNT storytelling. Best thing Laird had done in ages, IMO.

I hated TMNT II when I was younger because of how lame everything was, likewise I didn't care for III. But I've since grown to appreciate different aspects of them.

Venus is a waste, there isn't a single redeeming quality about her, but it didn't cause me too much pain. It ruined that show, but it works in a context because that show was terrible (and wasted potential) for a lot of reasons and Venus sort of serves a blackhole that sucks it all in there and doesn't tarnish the turtles so much. It just makes her even worse. If that makes any sense.

But if I had to say the worst thing? NECA not releasing Wave 2. Seriously. I still have nightmares about that. Venus I can ignore. I can find hidden gems in tons of TMNT crap... But not getting those awesome Shredder, Foot, Elite and Utroms? That pains me man.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Newton Gimmick

But if I had to say the worst thing? NECA not releasing Wave 2. Seriously. I still have nightmares about that. Venus I can ignore. I can find hidden gems in tons of TMNT crap... But not getting those awesome Shredder, Foot, Elite and Utroms? That pains me man.

Oh man, you make a good point. That one hurts, haha. Bittersweet, seeing the pictures of the prototypes to this day.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Newton Gimmick

I didn't care for the payoff (April being a drawing) but that whole arc where she travels through time and becomes a roach and all that, is one of my favorite bits of TMNT storytelling. Best thing Laird had done in ages, IMO.

I want to second this, because I don't know if I've ever seen anyone else share this sentiment.

I'm not a big fan of what was done with April's origin, and the story never really went anywhere with it. But issue #22 itself? It's goddamn horrifying, in exactly the right way, and it's easily Laird's best writing in Volume 4.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I want to second this, because I don't know if I've ever seen anyone else share this sentiment.

I'm not a big fan of what was done with April's origin, and the story never really went anywhere with it. But issue #22 itself? It's goddamn horrifying, in exactly the right way, and it's easily Laird's best writing in Volume 4.

I remember when that issue came out lots of readers liked it and thought it was a cool, unexpected twist that drew upon a classic TMNT story. Maybe it was refief at not being something random and fanboy kewl like people were expecting April's secret origin to be but there was the sense it was a good piece of work. Then the usual suspects came that hated every issue and it quickly became wrong to like it.

For me April's origin could work if it did go somewhere. Either gain freaky warp crystal powers or go the more grounded direction of her coming to terms with the idea she's no less "real" than if she'd been given birth by natural means, maybe something could be done with taking up Nobody's mantle but the story just got sidelined.

I would like to think her story will intertwine somewhat if Laird ever does finish Vol. 4. I'd like to think that Kirby's crystal belongs to the horned alien and that he's manufacturing the Guardifriend toys to search for it so he can reshape the universe in his own image. When he finds that April is the only link to the now gone crystal he kidnaps her and uses her as some kind of conduit to acess it's powers cue the Thirty-something Mutant Ninja Turtles to the rescue.

[zkarlette]

I really didn't care for the April origin story...

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Galactus

I would like to think her story will intertwine somewhat if Laird ever does finish Vol. 4. I'd like to think that Kirby's crystal belongs to the horned alien and that he's manufacturing the Guardifriend toys to search for it so he can reshape the universe in his own image. When he finds that April is the only link to the now gone crystal he kidnaps her and uses her as some kind of conduit to acess it's powers cue the Thirty-something Mutant Ninja Turtles to the rescue.

Well, we're getting sidelined now, but you know where I always thought that story was going?

One of the creepier revelations of the origin issue was that there had been a "first" April, another baby drawn by her dad before the one we knew. That one disappeared.

Where do all the crystal drawings disappear to? The alternate universe we saw in the Donatello micro-series.

What newly revealed plot element links universes together? The Battle Nexus. And if the first April ended up in Kirby-land, she was probably something of a warrior by this point. Were we headed for some April-meeting-April reconciliation?

But that kind of shoots Laird's whole "I could probably finish in six more issues" thing. As do most of the still-hanging plotlines in Volume 4, actually.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by zkarlette

I really didn't care for the April origin story...

April having an ordinary human background is a nice contrast to the fantastic origin of the turtles.

[zkarlette]

Originally Posted by Swedenfan 1982

April having an ordinary human background is a nice contrast to the fantastic origin of the turtles.

I found April's origin way stranger than mutant turtles

[Leo656]

I hated the April is a drawing origin story. Really didn't like the "back in time as a cockroach/implied that she mated with other cockroaches" twist at all. Gross, weird, and not necessary. I think it's funny that Peter says often, how "lame" it is when people discuss how "neat" it would be if there were a secret Fifth Turtle. And he's right, that's pretty cheesy and lame. But he actually thought the April angle was BETTER? He must have, because he wrote it. I could actually believe there were 5 turtles in the bowl at one point, it's a dumb retcon but not implausible. April's origin isn't just implausible, it's done with such earnest delivery that you can tell he really wants it to be taken seriously. Doesn't work. Part of me could even accept Venus if the character had a different origin or was handled in a different way, but I refuse to accept that April was sketched into existence by a magic pencil.

I'd hate it the same if it were any other main character, in any other series, it's just a dumb idea. "Lois Lane was secretly a magic drawing?" "Batman actually wished Robin into existence by doodling on a magic Etch-A-Sketch?" I'm sorry, it just doesn't work for me. Other than the Turtles Tunes/Christmas tapes, this is by far the thing I hate the most, even moreso because if you describe the story to someone, it sounds so stupid they'd refuse to believe it, and yet it's "Official". I get how it works on a "meta" level - after all, they're ALL just drawings, "GET IT?" - but it doesn't work at all as a character's "actual" backstory. It's the kind of thing that when Grant Morrison does it, people get all pissed off. And Grant Morrison may have had Batman go back in time, but he didn't have him f*ck a cockroach, or even imply it. I knew the book was all downhill from there. Thank God for Tales, which was better than Vol. 4 in almost every way.

Sorry, I can obviously see how some people really like that story, but I'm pretty sure I'll never agree or understand why. Good for you for liking it though, I just pretend it didn't happen, because, like "Superman: Birthright", the world was just a better place before its existence.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by zkarlette

I found April's origin way stranger than mutant turtles

The drawing, yes. That's what I oppose.

[Cryomancer]

The drawing thing could have been good if it was ever important in any way. As it is, it doesn't really go anywhere. Cipher's ideas above are good examples of things it could have been a setup for.

Semi-edit: Just looked up a summary on wiki and I had already forgotten that it did involve her not being able to have kids and actually came after her becoming Nobody. I was thinking those could have been tied in somehow, but I guess they already were and I forgot, so I guess they did involve something, at least.

I suppose the idea of connecting the Kirby world to the Battle Nexus effectively removes any fear she should have of disappearing, as if she did, she could just get back that way.

edit: typed up my feelings after having finished watching 4kids in another thread and it reminded me of another terrible thing in TMNT history: Leonardo riding around on one of those dumb folding scooter things, as if it was supposed to be cool.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Cryomancer

Semi-edit: Just looked up a summary on wiki and I had already forgotten that it did involve her not being able to have kids and actually came after her becoming Nobody. I was thinking those could have been tied in somehow, but I guess they already were and I forgot, so I guess they did involve something, at least.

There are actually some women who can't get kids due to some medical problems, no matter how much they try. And they are not drawings...

[mikey22]

the top 10 tmnt moments i can live w/out in any order

10 gettin down in your town music
9 venus de milo
8 the fat foot soldiers in next mutation seriously not skilled ninjas ast all
7 turtles forever michaelangelo cannot lift the sewer cover up
6 when rob paulsen didnt voice raph in ot last episodes
5 when james avery left as shredder
4 the tmnt cgi pilot that looked great but show that never came to life
3 the tmnt 3 villians and entire story.. why not make it about krang and he resurrects the shredder or the creepy rat king woulda been awesome too

2 when the original ot voice of leatherhead left
1 THE FINAL MOMENT OF TMNT OT.. really popcorn!!!! lmao