Ninja Turtle attributes

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Originally Posted by Heretic888

Strategy quickly shows its limitations in the throes of combat. Mushin ('no mind') and nagare ('flow') are the essence to mastering Ninpo, not superior battle strategies. This is what lets the ninja dodge a sword stroke or sniper shot from behind without knowing its there, and allows the ninja to adapt to a situation after the initial 'strategy' or 'technique' may have failed.

Strategy is useful, but has its limitations. Particularly if you get 'stuck' on it.

If I may add a bit to that. The point is that raw intellectual planning is only part of the story. One must have their emotions and instincts tuned to what's going on. This is not only the Ninja concept of Mushin but also in Bushidô as the point of "The Book Of Void". also even Chinese war strategist Sun Tsu has made a point of knowing one's enemy and oneself to the point that it becomes second nature and the actions of your opponent will become as a sixth sense.(I love cross-referencing different Martial Arts) Strategy is important but is only part of the story. It need not be overestimated nor underestimated.

Anyway, I still say Leo is most skilled. Dan's comment of "as official as it's going to get" sounds more like a brush-off than a confirmation.

[Karpo_007]

There are no indication anywhere that Mike would do better in actual combat situation then Leo. Not in Volume 1 or 2 anyway. In volume 2 Mike even seems to be against killing. The RPG is influenced by Eastman and Laird, but they probably didn't give the numbers. And the book lists Mike as the least inteligent... Well who said great Ninja needs to be smart, eh?

[heretic888]

If I may add a bit to that. The point is that raw intellectual planning is only part of the story. One must have their emotions and instincts tuned to what's going on.

More or less, yeah. This is why Leo being the 'better strategist' doesn't necessarily make him the most competent combatant of the four.... although, it does make him a very good leader (in most situations, anyway).

This is not only the Ninja concept of Mushin but also in Bushidô as the point of "The Book Of Void".

While I will certainly agree that Mushin is not a concept unique to Ninpo, the entire notion of Mushin is completely contrary to Bushido. The overwhelming basis of Bushido is loyalty, obediance, and adherence to a set of fairly rigid, unchanging rules of conduct and thinking. Mushin is a transcendence of such notions altogether. The typical 'samurai' way of handling things is actually a large barrier to 'spontaneous right action'.

Mushin is more usually associated with Zen and Taoist traditions, not Bushi ones (which are more Confucian in orientation). However, I must add here that just because a martial tradition talks about mushin and ki and whatnot does NOT mean its practitioners will actually manifest these abilities. Aikido, for example, talks more about these areas than any other Japanese martial art.... yet in actual practice, only a small minority of Aikidoka can demonstrate an experiential awareness of ki (in all truthfulness, Morihei Ueshiba's 'powers' were mostly a result of his Bagua training in China). Mushin is a regular concept in most Iaido schools, yet a typical Iaidoka demonstrating anything remotely like Mushin is rarer than a dragon's foot. Ninpo, on the other hand, rarely explicitly talks about ki at all and yet every Shidoshi has passed the Sakkijutsu test. Think about it.

And, on a final note, the 'Book of Void' is part of the Go Rin No Sho (Book of Five Rings). Musashi was NOT a follower of Bushido (he was ronin, after all) and his work demonstrates a more Taoist influence (some of the legends concerning him hint he may have been trained by ninja at some point).

also even Chinese war strategist Sun Tsu has made a point of knowing one's enemy and oneself to the point that it becomes second nature and the actions of your opponent will become as a sixth sense.(I love cross-referencing different Martial Arts) Strategy is important but is only part of the story. It need not be overestimated nor underestimated.

Yup. I agree completely.

Anyway, I still say Leo is most skilled.

That depends on what you mean by 'most skilled'. When I made my revisions of the original post, I was making a lot of assumptions (which I also listed). I will admit that Leo is the most.... formal (if you know what I mean). But, based on the fact that it is admitted Mike has greater natural talent than the others, and the 'heart' he exhibits in his day to day actions (if you know what I mean) then there is little doubt he has the greatest proficiency in Taijutsu.

Dan's comment of "as official as it's going to get" sounds more like a brush-off than a confirmation.

Well, it wasn't. I suppose its difficult to interpret the quote correctly out of the context of the entire email. I must make a correction, though. He actually said: "Its as official as it gets." The tone is clearly different there.

I also asked Dan if Eastman and Laird agreed with Palladium's basic presentation of the characters. He plainly replied, "Yes."

'Nuff said.

There are no indication anywhere that Mike would do better in actual combat situation then Leo.

You know, set aside the RPG, the fact Mike had a much easier time against Raph than Leo did, Mike's attitude in training and in life, his natural ability, his greater intuitive capacities, etc. etc.

Not in Volume 1 or 2 anyway.

As has been explained before, Karpo, just because its not in Volume 1 or 2 does not mean its not 'canon' as you say.

In volume 2 Mike even seems to be against killing.

Thats probably an even stronger indication that he is more combat-proficient.

The RPG is influenced by Eastman and Laird, but they probably didn't give the numbers.

No, they didn't. They aren't game designers. But they did agree with the basic presentations of the characters, and the profiles themselves actually detail the 'combat differences' of the characters.

And the book lists Mike as the least inteligent... Well who said great Ninja needs to be smart, eh?

Unless you consider an IQ of 110 as 'not smart'. Most testers would consider that 'above average', though.

Mike was given the lowest IQ. That is, in conventional bookwise intelligence. They did not rate emotional intelligence, physical intelligence, intuitive intelligence, creative/aesthetic intelligence, etc etc.

And no, a 'great ninja' does not have to be 'smart'.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Well, all of my so called "Bushidô" knowledge was from the Go Rin No Shô, which just happens to be one of my all time favorite books. I am not the least bit surprised to find out that Musashi might have had a Ninpo influence and I also saw the zenist/taoist influence in it.(Being a Zenist myself, this appealed to me over the more Confucianistic styles) The only inaccuracy in my entire statement was calling the Go Rin No Sho "Bushidô" simply because Musashi was traditionally considered a Samurai.
Since the Go Rin No Shô has been my training manual, and it's appearantly more Ninja than Samurai, I guess I'm more Ninja than I thought. It also means that Leo was more historically accurate than I thought at the beginning of "Shredder Strikes" when he quoted Musashi.

My other influence is Sun Tzu, and I thought it was so cool when Hatsumi-sensei's website said Ninpo has influence from chinese war strategy. I had no idea there was a Ninpo connection to that or the Go Rin No Sho.

[heretic888]

The only inaccuracy in my entire statement was calling the Go Rin No Sho "Bushidô" simply because Musashi was traditionally considered a Samurai.

I find that entire notion rather humorous, considering the typical samurai notion of 'strategy' is charging gloriously into battle. Musashi apparently preferred living.

I had no idea there was a Ninpo connection to that or the Go Rin No Sho.

Well, the Ninpo influence isn't exactly concrete or set in stone. But, anyone with half a brain can tell that the Book of Five Rings goes hand in hand with Ninjutsu teachings. I actually picked up on Musashi's possible ninja influence in a book by Glenn J. Morris. He noted that some of the legends associated with Musashi claimed that he "defeated tengu up in the mountains". Morris claimed this esoterically meant he was trained by ninja as ninja were mythically known to 'control' the tengu (the old legends regard ninja as more sorcerers than spies/commandos).

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Originally Posted by heretic888

I find that entire notion rather humorous, considering the typical samurai notion of 'strategy' is charging gloriously into battle. Musashi apparently preferred living.

You're telling me. The fact that he actually lived to die of old age says it all!

Originally Posted by heretic888

Well, the Ninpo influence isn't exactly concrete or set in stone. But, anyone with half a brain can tell that the Book of Five Rings goes hand in hand with Ninjutsu teachings. I actually picked up on Musashi's possible ninja influence in a book by Glenn J. Morris. He noted that some of the legends associated with Musashi claimed that he "defeated tengu up in the mountains". Morris claimed this esoterically meant he was trained by ninja as ninja were mythically known to 'control' the tengu (the old legends regard ninja as more sorcerers than spies/commandos).

I'm well aware of the Tengu legends, but I've never heard of Musashi having contact with Tengu. Very Cool!
And, I've noticed the Go Rin No Sho fits in quite well with Ninjutsu, I just didn't know there might be an actual connection.

[Karpo_007]

It is Leo who gives the Fatal wound to Shredder, it is Leo who saves Raph from 6 Shredder Elites, It is Leo who finally puts Saki to rest, the list goes on. Yes Mike does beat Raph during sparring, and Raph does throw Leo out of his way. Now Im not sure anymore who is the most skilled, talented etc. Let me put it this way: In Mirage Leo is represent as the best fighter. 'Nuff said.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

And, in the new cartoon!

[Karpo_007]

Yes, it clearly shows in the new cartoon, Leo beats them all during sparring.

[heretic888]

It is Leo who gives the Fatal wound to Shredder

Yeah, after he is wounded by the others' shuriken, narrowly dodges Raphael's sai, has the wind knocked out of him by Mike's kick, has the back of his kneecap and his jaw broken by Don's staff, and is busy gloating over Don (thus doesn't see Leo coming). Saying Leo is the greatest because he delivered the 'fatal wound' to Saki is like saying America 'won' WW2 because they jumped in at the end.

To his credit, though, Leo was one of the few of them that was able to injure Shredder one-on-one. But, then again, so was Mike (Leo might not have been able to slice Shredder initially if it wasn't for Mike winding him with his kick). Hmmm......

it is Leo who saves Raph from 6 Shredder Elites

And it was Mike that saved Don from one of the Shredder Clones, not to mention beating one on his own. He was too occupied to help Leo and Raph.

It is Leo who finally puts Saki to rest

That's because he left the others to fight him. That has nothing to do with skill, it has to do with circumstance. Also, the ONLY reason Leo survived that fight was because of an explosion narrowly preventing Saki from beheading him. And it was ANOTHER explosion that gave Leo the needed momentum and leverage to behead Shredder at the end.

Throughout most of the fight, Saki was dominating him.

the list goes on.

Actually, no, it doesn't.

Yes Mike does beat Raph during sparring

Twice. And far easier than Leo was doing in issue 21, I might add. In fact, in the Raphael special, Mike was controlling Raph fairly easily for most of the fight.

and Raph does throw Leo out of his way.

Yes. But, to his credit, Leo was holding back considerably during that fight (he could have stopped Raph when he had the bokken over his throat). Still, Mike did far better against Raph than Leo ever did.

Now Im not sure anymore who is the most skilled, talented etc.

Upon retrospection, I'm inclined to agree.... IF we are talking about between Mike and Leo. Both are clearly better than Raph and Don. Mike and Leo have never sparred in the Mirage comics, so it would be an interesting match indeed, I believe.

The Palladium RPG (worked VERY closely with and approved by Eatman and Laird, I am told) lists Leo as 'the most skilled' and Mike 'the most talented' fighters of the bunch. I'm not quite sure what they mean by that, though. In actual game semantics, Mike has a higher base bonus to Strike, Parry, Dodge, and Damage. But Leo has more attacks per melee round (15 seconds) and has a higher bonus to Roll with a Punch or Fall (thus halfing the damage done to him). Leo is also at a higher experience level.

So..... its pretty difficult to say. Ultimately, I'm inclined to say they 'tie' if anything. But, IF we have to place either of them as 'numero uno' it would probably be Mike (the odds are somewhat in his favor, if only slightly).

Let me put it this way: In Mirage Leo is represent as the best fighter.

No one is uncontestably presented as the 'best fighter' in the Mirage books, and don't even try and pretend they are. Leo is presented as the leader, and has the most stereoypical 'warrior image' of the four. But, as stated before, ninja are not very typical warriors (Mike is much closer to the 'ninja spirit' than Leo as a character)......

'Nuff said.

"[The Palladium RPG stats] are as official as it gets." - Dan Berger

"Kevin and Pete worked very closely with Palladium during the early years, as there wasn't really any other TMNT licensing going on at the time." - Dan Berger (paraphrased)

"Did Kev and Pete agree with Palladium's basic interpretation and presentation of the characters??" -Heretic888

"Yes." - Dan Berger

"Did they 'approve' everything?" - Heretic888

"Yes." - Dan Berger

"'Nuff said." - Stan Lee (and Heretic88

Yes, it clearly shows in the new cartoon, Leo beats them all during sparring.

First off, although the new cartoon is based on the Mirage comics, it is not the Mirage universe (unlike the Palladium RPG, which was a direct paper-and-pencil translation of the characters and story).

Secondly, wasn't it Mike that beat that 'I control the Earth' guy that OWNED the other three?? And, wasn't it Mike that was able to make practical use of the 'Art of Balance/Stealth' and the 'Invisible Flying Dragon' the very DAY he learned them?? And wasn't it Mike that was taking on Foot sentries just as easily as the other three even though he was injured???

'Nuff said.

[Karpo_007]

In Mirage listing who is the most skilled fighter isn't that simple. They ALL have shown skill fullfighting, I have listed examples on Leo and you have on Mike. But you know what, I can list same from Raph and Don to. The impression I got is that they all are pretty equal on battlefield, but things like Final Duel with saki does give the impression that Leo is the best fighter, altough who knows, Mike could have beaten him to.

Point is, no matter how much you talk about your numbers, you can't prove Mike being any more skiled than Leo. Nor I can prove other way around. We both have gotten our impressions, no one is more right on this than other.

On new show, it's the same thing, Leo beat dozen foot soldiers surrounding him alone, and beat all other TMNT during sparring, And Mike did veat 4 foot ninjas jumping on one foot. I still say Leo is more skilled, but here to it's about impression.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Originally Posted by Karpo_007

In Mirage listing who is the most skilled fighter isn't that simple. They ALL have shown skill fullfighting, I have listed examples on Leo and you have on Mike. But you know what, I can list same from Raph and Don to. The impression I got is that they all are pretty equal on battlefield, but things like Final Duel with saki does give the impression that Leo is the best fighter, altough who knows, Mike could have beaten him to.

Point is, no matter how much you talk about your numbers, you can't prove Mike being any more skiled than Leo. Nor I can prove other way around. We both have gotten our impressions, no one is more right on this than other.

On new show, it's the same thing, Leo beat dozen foot soldiers surrounding him alone, and beat all other TMNT during sparring, And Mike did veat 4 foot ninjas jumping on one foot. I still say Leo is more skilled, but here to it's about impression.

I'd have to go with Karpo on this one. I couldn't agree more.

The whole Leo vs. Mike thing is just TMNT fans backing their respective favorite characters. Kids do this without bringing RPG stats, actual Ninpo knowledge, and varying universes into the picture.

[heretic888]

In Mirage listing who is the most skilled fighter isn't that simple.

That was the point I was trying to make earlier. That is why we have to draw upon Mirage-related sources like the Palladium RPG to 'simplify' things.

But you know what, I can list same from Raph and Don to.

Actually, no you can't. The only thing Raph has going for him is that he took Leo in issue 19. And, even then, Leo was holding back considerably as I said before. Ultimately, Raphael's "character flaws" would be his downfall (takes himself too seriously, gets angered too easily, too impulsive), as seen when the Elite Foot jumped him in issue 21.

Donny's gunnin' on zero, though. He's got nothing to back him up. Of course, combat-wise he's more of a 'background' character than the others (he's never been shown sparring and he almost never trains).

The impression I got is that they all are pretty equal on battlefield, but things like Final Duel with saki does give the impression that Leo is the best fighter, altough who knows, Mike could have beaten him to.

Exactly.

Point is, no matter how much you talk about your numbers, you can't prove Mike being any more skiled than Leo. Nor I can prove other way around.

No, neither of us can 'prove' our claims uncontestably beyond a shadow of a doubt. The only way to prove THAT would be some kind of official statement by Eastman and/or Laird.

However, we can get closer approximations of the truth. Or, we could say "So-an-so is MORE likely to be a better fighter because...". That's just how things operate in science, too: on probabilities and likelihoods, not on so-called 'facts'.

We both have gotten our impressions, no one is more right on this than other.

You were right all the way until the 'no one is more right on this' part. No, I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mike uncontestably has the best Taijutsu. But, that doesn't mean the two possibilities (Leo being better and Mike being better) have equal probability. Based on the RPG stats (which is "as official as it gets"), the information in the comic itself, my actual knowledge of real-life ninjutsu (which, granted, is limited), and the "character strengths and flaws" of the two characters, I can attempt to come to a closer approximation or probability of the so-called 'truth'. Which, I am quite certain is that IF either of them has better Taijutsu, it would be Mike. But, really, between the two of them its too close to declare things like that.

There is no doubt both of them are better than Raph and Don. So, perhaps I should restructure the attribute to look like this:

LEONARDO
-SKILL: 3/4

MICHELANGELO
-SKILL: 3/4

RAPHAEL
-SKILL: 2

DONATELLO
-SKILL: 1

The whole Leo vs. Mike thing is just TMNT fans backing their respective favorite characters. Kids do this without bringing RPG stats, actual Ninpo knowledge, and varying universes into the picture.

Which is why in all likelihood I am closer to the truth than they are.

[Karpo_007]

You are no closer to the truth than anyone else. It's all just speculation based on source material. You have your version of the truth, I have mine. I doubt even Laird knows the answer to this question. If you have to rank their skills however, those numbers you posted seem pretty realistic.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Yeah, those numbers seem pretty solid.

[PWDESAI]

Most of those have to do with ninjitsu or fighting. All around I would have to say Leonardo then Raphael for those sorts of things. But then when you get into other things, like goof off mike is number 1.

It's a choice to not take things seriously, that's why I would have to rank mike lower. And that rpg thing it probably bs to anything story wise. Mikey being more skilled than raph or leo? Hmm well that sounds kinda stupid. I mean Mikey is cool and all, but this is probably from when he was the most popular (because of the cartoon) so they ranked him highest. "Things Change"
Otherwise pretty accurate.

In the RPG thing, how come Leo isn't top at anything? Sounds kinda bs to me.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

The RPG was before the cartoon.

[Karpo_007]

Well it's "as official as it's going to get" wich can mean just aproval. But In skill, even if Raph is my favorite, I would rank Mike over him. Raph is physically the strongest, and has by far the highest bodycount, but against really skilled fighters Leo and yes, even Mike do better. Don could almost be seen as a pacifist sometimes, he is much more into thinking than fighting, but can still hold his own very well.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

If you want a TMNT universe where Don is the strongest and best fighter, try the old NES game!

[heretic888]

You are no closer to the truth than anyone else. It's all just speculation based on source material. You have your version of the truth, I have mine

Yeah, but the thing is I have MORE source material!! Bwhahahah!!

I try and take a scientific approach to things, though. I can't honestly say if I am right or wrong, but I can say that, based on the available 'evidence', my claims are MORE likely (but not necessarily) to be true. And, there's always intuition, too.

I doubt even Laird knows the answer to this question.

Oh, he probably does. But I doubt he'd go out and tell us.

If you have to rank their skills however, those numbers you posted seem pretty realistic.

Damn skippy.

Yeah, those numbers seem pretty solid.

Whoo hoo!!

In the RPG thing, how come Leo isn't top at anything? Sounds kinda bs to me.

No, but overall he is pretty good in everything. No major weaknesses, if you will.

The RPG was before the cartoon.

Ditto.

Well it's "as official as it's going to get" wich can mean just aproval

That's not what it sounded like in the email I got. But, hey, whatever.

Raph is physically the strongest

Which doesn't realy amount to a lot in Ninpo, but is handy in weightlifting and boxing.