The "REAL" Best Wrestler of all time... - Page 2

**GK Punk** · 07-19-2003, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugitoid Jones

If this was a real best wrestler of all time poll, it would have names like Bruno Sammartino, Lou Thesz, Freddie Blassie, Verne Gagne, Gorgeous George, Killer Kowalski, Arn Anderson, Mr. Fuji and Mad Dog Vachon, instead of names of wrestlers who have been popular in the past decade. Of course, I understand why those name aren't on there, because most of the people on this forum have probably never heard of some of these names.

*applauds*

He's got a good point, ya know.

~~Leo656~~ · 07-19-2003, 10:21 AM

Smack yourself. I've literally been watching wrestling since before you or half of the people on this board were even born, Rez. Before you say something like "you must know nothing about Foley", check the facts and find out I've read both "Have a Nice Day" and "Foley is Good" repeatedly (yes, "Foley is Good" was written by him, by the way), and enjoyed them, followed his career since the WCW years (before he became a clown), through ECW, and into the WWF and the absolutely ridiculous crap they made him do there. I've also seen the Cactus Jack/Maxx Payne vs The Nasty Boys match from Spring Stampede 1994 (Foley's REAL best match) close to two dozen times. I even called myself a fan of his before he started pulling a sock out of his pants. So relax a little bit before you get all defensive and start saying things that aren't quite truth, there, sonny jim.

No, Foley's contributions to the industry are nowhere near the level of guys like Hogan, and he does NOT deserve to be mentioned in their league, and he never did. Twenty years from now, people will be talking about the accomplishments of guys like Hogan and Piper and Savage and Andre, and they each contributed a lot to the sport of wrestling. But twenty years from now, people will be talking about Hell in the Cell, and Foley falling off the cage, and that's ALL. They won't be talking about how he lost his ear, most people in fact don't even remember (or at least, they rarely talk about that match in Munich, Germany when he lost his ear against Vader). Nobody talks about his I Quit match with Rock anymore. The only Foley-Funk matches MOST of his so-called fans have seen is the ridiculous "Chainsaw Charlie" matches in the WWF. All ANYONE who talks about Foley ever mentions is that God damned Hell in a Cell, and as a spectacle, it was entertaining, but as a MATCH it was awful. It was awful because aside from the two Big Falls, almost NOTHING HAPPENED the entire match because Taker had a broken ankle and Foley was almost dead after he took the big bumps. If your kind of match is one where two guys lumber around for a while to compensate for one of them suffering a severe concussion and nearly being killed, fine, but as a WRESTLING match, it was bad. The Undertaker-Shawn Michaels Hell in a Cell was a much better pure match and even a better brawl, with an actual storyline to the match. But I'm getting the feeling you're less of an actual wrestling fan and more a fan of the violent spectacle side of things. Again, fine, but it's not wrestling.

I'll say again, I respect Foley for willing to put his body at risk for the sake of entertainment, but I also think he is a complete idiot for going to the lengths he did. Roddy Piper said it best when he, Hogan, and Foley were on Larry King together back in 1999: "You think these fans, or Vince McMahon, are going to give a damn about you when you're 60? Will they remember? Will they even care?"

The answer, of course, is "not bloody likely". Not when a guy like Hulk Hogan, who did more for the industry of professional wrestling than ANYONE in history ever did, is openly mocked and ridiculed by many because of his age and his thinning hair, when in fact he ought to have every single fan and promoter bow down and kiss his ass because without what he did, there would BE no Wrestlemania, there would BE no WWF/WWE, there would have never been a WCW, the NWA would have gone belly-up some time in the late 1980s, and point blank, Mick Foley would have never been a professional wrestler, and if he was, he would have wrestled in front of 100 people in a gym for a few years before calling it quits in frustration. THAT is reality. If a lot of people don't even see fit to recognize Hogan's accomplishments, there's no way in hell they'll remember Foley's. For all he did, he'll always be remembered as a footnote in wrestling history. "The guy who fell off the Cell." "The guy who pulled a sock out of his tights." That's not much of a contribution.

Yes, Foley has/had a lot of guts to do what he did. But again, that doesn't mean he actually made a substantial contribution. There's a thin line between courage and stupidity, and Foley walked it his entire career. In my opinion, he fell over more than once. People are ecstatic when they hear his name because they expect him to get hit in the head with chairs or fall off some high place. He often goes on about how the fans expect too much, but he's as much to blame as anyone. I don't get his fans. I really don't. How sadistic must a person be to root for their "favorite" to get the living hell beaten out of him? "Yeah, I love Foley! I love watching him get bludgeoned with chairs and blown up with C4! And when he almost got killed falling through the Cell, that was GREAT!"

Point blank: The guy took a beating better than anyone, but that does NOT make him the greatest wrestler ever. Not even close. I respect him, but I also get an overwhelming feeling of "what a dumbass" when I watch his more brutal matches. It's weird... early in his career, he was regarded as a guy who loved to *deliver* punishment, and later on he was known as a guy who loved to *take* punishment. I wonder if he switched his style because he realized that he wasn't a very good wrestler and decided to play to his strengths: taking chairshots to the head.

Try a little objectivity next time. I mean I think Diamond Dallas Page worked harder than anyone to improve himself, and he's one of my favorites, but I don't think he's anywhere near being the greatest wrestler of all time. And if the only thing "real" about wrestling to you is people getting bludgeoned with weapons, falling into C4 and falling off scaffolding, then you're not much of a fan.

Anyway, you asked for a list of other wrestlers accomplishments, and that's easy enough to do.

HOGAN
It's been stated and re-stated, but nobody did more for wrestling or brought it to a higher level. Without Hogan and Hulkamania in the 80s, there would be no Wrestlemania, no 93,000+ in the Silverdome, no PPV, no million-dollar contracts for wrestlers, no merchandise deals, no wrestlers starring in movies, no Austin, no Rock... no professional wrestling in America. Period.

SCOTT HALL
Hall didn't accomplish very much on his own, but he was part of the nWo, the angle that revolutionized wrestling in the 1990s and made WCW popular again, which in turn sparked the Monday Night Wars that led to the WWF rejuvenating its product.

KEVIN NASH
Pretty much the same. Without the nWo, WCW wouldn't have kicked the WWF's ass so badly in the ratings for two years, finally making Vince wake up and realize that his product was stale. Vince would have gone bankrupt by 1998 without that kick in the ass, and it all started with three letters: n-W-o. Far from the best ever, but his name will go down in history by association.

RANDY SAVAGE
Almost everyone alive has heard of the "Macho Man". That counts for something. He made himself a household name and managed to stand out even when he was standing in Hogan's shadow. And that's a BIG shadow.

RIC FLAIR
He's been called the greatest wrestler in history by a large number of people. Not too many people would dare disagree. He's had classic matches with almost everyone who ever set foot in a ring, and he did it without having to resort to taking chairshots and lighting himself on fire. I absolutely hated Flair as a kid, but as I grew up I realized that he really is one of the single greatest ever to lace up the boots.

JERRY LAWLER
Lawler's contributions are relatively negligible, I don't particularly feel he belongs on this list. He became a household name with the Andy Kaufman angle, but that was mostly played for laughs, so I don't really regard it as a strong contribution. Most fans don't even know he wrestled before he became an announcer.

BRET HART
Simply put, the greatest technical wrestler ever, maybe surpassed by Dean Malenko, but Bret Hart had classic matches with everyone, similar to Flair. Bret is almost a legitimate hero in many countries, respected by nearly everyone who watches wrestling. Some could argue that Bret was not one of the best ever. And those people would be wrong. His skills were unmatched, and it was those skills which earned him his reputation.

STING
The Franchise of WCW, probably the most popular wrestler they ever had. Had some of the most memorable matches in history with guys like Flair and Hogan, some of them going nearly an hour. He somehow managed to become the most popular wrestler in the world for a time without wrestling a match or saying a word for over a year. Maybe not quite THE best ever, but anyone who has seen his matches with Flair could make a case for it.

RICKY STEAMBOAT
Again, aside from his classic matches with Ric Flair back in the 1980s, the Dragon never really did much to stand out. He did compete with Ric Flair in a match many call the greatest match of all time, a 60-minute classic at Clash of the Champions VI in 1989. His series with Flair is still referred to by many as the greatest series of pure wrestling matches in recent memory, so that counts for something. Again, maybe not THE best ever, but some of his matches suggest it.

SHAWN MICHAELS
I absolutely hated him for a period of time, but I could never argue his talent. In the ring, there were few who were better. He could have a classic scientific encounter like the 60-Minute Iron Man Match at Wrestlemania 12, or he could have a down and dirty, brutal, absolute WAR with Kevin Nash at "In Your House: Good Friends, Better Enemies", a match that was hardcore before hardcore was "in" and maybe Nash's best match ever. Best part: Nash Jackknifes HBK through the announce table without bothering to clean it off first, monitors and all, and Michaels gets up looking like he's been in a car wreck. Then there was The Montreal Incident with Bret Hart, which provided the catalyst for the "Attitude Era". Anyone who would dispute Michaels skills and his contribution to the industry need only get "From The Vault" on DVD. He's a scumbag, but he's one of the greatest ever.

STEVE AUSTIN
I do not like Austin. I have been a fan of his at brief moments throughtout his career. I liked the Hollywood Blondes. I was a fan of "Stunning Steve" (catchphrase: "Your brush with greatness... is OVER!") I even liked him for a time back during the InVasion. As a whole, though, I find him rather repetitive. BUT, he definitely did contribute a lot to the industry, not so much in classic matches, as his really really GREAT matches were few and far between after his neck injury, but the Second Coming off the WWF in the 90s was carried on his back. He was like Hulk Hogan of the modern era on a slightly smaller scale. I begrudgingly have to admit, though I don't like Austin, he will be remembered for his accomplishments for a long, long time.

RODDY PIPER
Again, everyone knows "Hot Rod". He was Luthor to Hogan's Superman, the itch he just couldn't scratch, the constant annoyance that never really got taken care of properly. The guy that created Piper's Pit. The guy that kicked Cyndi Lauper in the head. The guy who talked trash to Mr. T on the set of the A-Team and single-handedly started the Rock and Wrestling Connection. The guy who bashed Jimmy Snuka with a coconut, something people still talk about 20 years later. He wasn't a great technical wrestler, but he had some classics like his Intercontinental Title defense against Bret hart at Wrestlemania 8 and his absolutely brutal Dog Collar Match against Greg "The Hammer" Valentine at the first Starrcade in 1983. If you can find it, track down "Rowdy Roddy Piper's Greatest Hits" on Coliseum Video to see just why Piper is so reknowned. A must-see if only for the scene where he interviews himself on Piper's Pit.

THE UNDERTAKER
Again, a somewhat questionable addition, as 'Taker is well-known more for his gimmick than his skills. His best match was against Shawn Michaels in the first Hell in a Cell at "In Your House: Bad Blood" in 1997. He never really had too many matches which fall under "all-time great" category, but his gimmick entertained many, and lasted far longer than anyone expected it to, so that's noteworthy I suppose. Trivia Fact: Vampiro was the WWF's first choice to portray the Undertaker character, but he passed on it over money and stayed in Mexico. The gimmick was given to Mark Calloway and the rest, as they say, is history.

ANDRE THE GIANT
One of the most well-known wrestlers in history throughout the entire world. Andre preferred to travel from place to place rather than settle in one promotion or territory, and as such fans the world over knew and loved Andre. When you're bigger than everyone else, it's easy to stand out. He was one of the most popular wrestlers in the world before turning heel and challenging Hulk Hogan in 1987. Their match at Wrestlemania III drew 93,173 people to the Pontiac Silverdome, and that match is often credited as the point where the WWF became a household name. Everyone wanted to see Hogan vs. Andre, and together they attracted a lot of people who normally didn't watch wrestling. Many of those fans stuck around. Andre is a legend in a class by himself.

GOLDBERG
Goldberg hasn't really been around long enough to make a huge impact, nor do I think he had many truly great matches. His best in-ring encounters were actually with Hulk Hogan and Diamond Dallas Page of all people. Regardless, he did become a household name for a period of time, and attracted a lot of fans to WCW at a time when the WWF was making a comeback. The match where he won the World Title from Hogan on Nitro got a rating that was, at its time, the highest ever for a wrestling match on cable television. So once again, maybe not one of the best ever but his prescence was definitely felt within the industry.

Don't test my wrestling knowledge again, boy, lest ye be beaten with the proverbial whippin' stick.

~~Reznorite420~~ · 07-19-2003, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Smack yourself. I've literally been watching wrestling since before you or half of the people on this board were even born, Rez.

Hmmmm, how old were you in '84? That's when I was born. Were you watching wrestling then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Before you say something like "you must know nothing about Foley", check the facts (blah blah blah)...So relax a little bit before you get all defensive and start saying things that aren't quite truth, there, sonny jim.

Well, you made no indication of ever knowing all that stuff in the past, so it's pretty much given that somebody will jump to conclusions if you don't say EVERYTHING at first. That's the only logical way of thinking. Why don't you relax, be like me, be patient and say EVERYTHING you know the first time around if it's relevant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

But twenty years from now, people will be talking about Hell in the Cell, and Foley falling off the cage, and that's ALL. They won't be talking about how he lost his ear, most people in fact don't even remember (or at least, they rarely talk about that match in Munich, Germany when he lost his ear against Vader). Nobody talks about his I Quit match with Rock anymore. All ANYONE who talks about Foley ever mentions is that damned Hell in a Cell

I'm not MOST fans, idiot. Me and a few friends ALWAYS talk about the I Quit match, the match in Munich (where he lost his ear, that's the one we talk about most in fact), and, ironically, we RARELY talk about the Hell In A Cell match. We go on and on all the time about how Dude Love debuted in San Antonio, because, after all, that IS where we live

. "King of the Death Match" in Japan is also a topic of our conversation. Damn, every time I see that pic of him drenched in blood and holding that title/trophy/whatever that was in "Have A Nice Day!", I think to myself, "Man, a guy like that, litterally putting his life on the line just to win a title...you gotta love this guy!" My friends, in response, just say "Ditto, dude".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

If your kind of match is one where two guys lumber around for a while to compensate for one of them suffering a severe concussion and nearly being killed, fine, but as a WRESTLING match, it was bad.

Well, what else would wrestling be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

The Undertaker-Shawn Michaels Hell in a Cell was a much better pure match and even a better brawl, with an actual storyline to the match.

"Stoyline" this, "storyline" that...poo. Who cares about storylines? *see next quote/response*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'm getting the feeling you're less of an actual wrestling fan and more a fan of the violent spectacle side of things. Again, fine, but it's not wrestling.

Boy, you wanna talk about FOLEY having brain damage? Seems to me like, based on what you said right there, the brain damage you have makes Foley look like he still HAS a brain TO damage!

No, I'm MORE of a fan of the "actual" wrestling than you are. What you like is that crap that started long before YOU were even born (yes, the whole idea of choreographing matches and giving the wrestlers "gimmicks" started back when my grandpa was a kid back in the late 20's and early 30's, I'll explain later) that consists 99.999999999.....% of nothing but trash talk, backstage interviews, fake moves, choreographed matches that arent' real, lousy costumes/gimmicks, signature moves that consist more of jumping around the ring and making yourself look like an idiot rather than actually hitting the person (People's Elbow [The Rock], anyone? The Worm? [Scotty 2 Hotty] Just to name a couple...), and overall stupidity. No sir, what I'm a fan of is the TRUE talent where the wrestlers show their true strength and stamina WITHOUT the pre-set outcome of the match. Professional "wrestling" today is crap. Hands down.

Now, in terms of that kind of wrestling (modern-day), then I'd have to say Hogan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'll say again, I respect Foley for willing to put his body at risk for the sake of entertainment, but I also think he is a complete idiot for going to the lengths he did.

Make up you damn mind, dude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Roddy Piper said it best when he, Hogan, and Foley were on Larry King together back in 1999: "You think these fans, or Vince McMahon, are going to give a damn about you when you're 60? Will they remember? Will they even care?"

But, then again, who cares about ANYBODY in showbusiness when they reach that age if they're no longer in it by then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Not when a guy like Hulk Hogan, who did more for the industry of professional wrestling than ANYONE in history ever did, is openly mocked and ridiculed by many because of his age and his thinning hair, when in fact he ought to have every single fan and promoter bow down and kiss his ass because without what he did, there would BE no Wrestlemania, there would BE no WWF/WWE, there would have never been a WCW, the NWA would have gone belly-up some time in the late 1980s, and point blank, Mick Foley would have never been a professional wrestler, and if he was, he would have wrestled in front of 100 people in a gym for a few years before calling it quits in frustration. THAT is reality.

So you mean to say that were it not for Hogan, wrestling would still be worthy of being called wrestling today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

If a lot of people don't even see fit to recognize Hogan's accomplishments, there's no way in hell they'll remember Foley's. For all he did, he'll always be remembered as a footnote in wrestling history. "The guy who fell off the Cell." "The guy who pulled a sock out of his tights."

...the guy who really wanted to wrestle, not do what some dillweed told him to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

People are ecstatic when they hear his name because they expect him to get hit in the head with chairs or fall off some high place.

Are you certain? I always thought it was because he really had skill, guts, and words to boot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Point blank: The guy took a beating better than anyone, but that does NOT make him the greatest wrestler ever. Not even close.

So I guess that means a guy who has never had a real punch delivered to him in a match and then falls down after only a few "blows" (which equates to a whimp, IMO) is better, ey?

Wonderful logic you have there, Einstein.[/sarcasm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

I wonder if he switched his style because he realized that he wasn't a very good wrestler and decided to play to his strengths: taking chairshots to the head.

I think it was more along the lines of he wanted to show the world that he was tough and refused to quit just because of a few bruises here and there; it would have to take paralysis (which is almost the state he's in now) for him to call it quits entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

And if the only thing "real" about wrestling to you is people getting bludgeoned with weapons, falling into C4 and falling off scaffolding, then you're not much of a fan.

You're right, I'm not much of a fan of what is wrongfully called "wrestling" today. I'm a fan of real stuff (no, not amateur, I mean REALLY hitting each other and REALLY taking a chance in match instead of knowing who will win and who will lose). I want to see some real action going on. When this poll asked for the best wrestler of all time, I was looking for someone who wasn't all talk/gimmick, I was looking for someone who had some real fighting skill and/or could take a lot of punishment without giving up. That's Foley for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Anyway, you asked for a list of other wrestlers accomplishments, and that's easy enough to do.

I'll respond to this later. I have a feeling I'm getting close to the character limit per post on this one.

tekcop · 07-19-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

JERRY LAWLER
Lawler's contributions are relatively negligible, I don't particularly feel he belongs on this list. He became a household name with the Andy Kaufman angle, but that was mostly played for laughs, so I don't really regard it as a strong contribution. Most fans don't even know he wrestled before he became an announcer.

That's not fair. I mean, Lawler was one of the few wrestlers to gain major popularity outside of his region. He pretty much created the "Memphis Style" which the WWE's current style is heavily based off. Hogan stole his "hulking up" from Lawler. Oh... and he has the best wrestling punches in the business.

~~Leo656~~ · 07-19-2003, 12:52 PM

Don't bother, Rez, don't even bother. Never mind what I said before in the other thread. By resorting to name calling like a child, you conceded the argument before it even got off the ground. Why is it that you can't have a single disagreement with ANYONE without resorting to attacking them personally? Get off your damn high horse, stop taking yourself so seriously, and stop acting like you're the only one whose opinion matters. I've seen you do it to other people and ignored it, but now you're trying it on me and it aint gonna work.

Everything you're saying is your own damn opinion, and MY opinion is that your opinion sucks. Deal with it. "Idiot".

How's that for square, huh?

And by the way, I was two in 1984, and yes I was watching wrestling. Hogan vs Iron Sheik in a steel cage match on tv was one of my earliest memories. And the reason I don't "blow my load" in one post and just explain EVERYTHING I know about a given subject is due to not wanting to make one of my "uber-long posts" you and everyone else loves so much even longer. Duh, "Einstein" (sarcasm).

Now step off, I'm done arguing with you. Go play in your sandbox while the big people talk like adults. When you want to debate without resorting to insults, name-calling, and all the other childish crap contained within your last post, I'll be more than happy to participate. Until then, I'm not gonna waste my time. If you feel so strongly about your own OPINION that you feel the need to call anyone who disagrees "brain damaged", then there's no point even talking to you.

~~Leo656~~ · 07-19-2003, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tekcop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

JERRY LAWLER
Lawler's contributions are relatively negligible, I don't particularly feel he belongs on this list. He became a household name with the Andy Kaufman angle, but that was mostly played for laughs, so I don't really regard it as a strong contribution. Most fans don't even know he wrestled before he became an announcer.

That's not fair. I mean, Lawler was one of the few wrestlers to gain major popularity outside of his region. He pretty much created the "Memphis Style" which the WWE's current style is heavily based off. Hogan stole his "hulking up" from Lawler. Oh... and he has the best wrestling punches in the business.

Good point. My biggest problem with Lawler's consideration as being one of the Greatest Ever is that his accomplishments are relatively unknown (or ignored) by a large number of fans. My consideration for being the Greatest Ever is a mixture of putting on good to great matches in the ring combined with reaching a level of popularity and respectability outside the ring. Basically, "Will people still be talking about (Wrestler X) 20, 30, 50 years from now?" and I'm not sure Lawler *quite* fits the bill, but I do find him quite entertaining. I really think it's a shame he never got to show off his wrestling skills in the WWF, because even at his age he's still probably better than half of their guys. His announcing isn't even that good anymore, in my opinion. I'd actually rather see him wrestle than hear him talk at this point. Too bad the WWE banned the Piledriver.

Wingnut · 07-19-2003, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

...but... but people DID vote for Doink the Clown...

Im one of em! When he had all those doubles help at Wrestlemania then they did that mime act,PRICELESS!

*Raven* · 07-19-2003, 01:36 PM

man you people write to much
*walks out*

~~Leo656~~ · 07-19-2003, 01:38 PM

Doink was so lame. Though the original concept was neat. An evil clown is actually pretty interesting. Of course, Vince had to ruin it to sell merchandise.

**GK Punk** · 07-20-2003, 05:17 AM

...Damn Rez, you're a youngin!

...Am I the only one here that WATCHED in 84... And remembers it?

EV Kielbasa King · 07-20-2003, 08:09 AM

Scott Hall,best wrestler ever!

~~Reznorite420~~ · 07-20-2003, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunger_kittie

...Damn Rez, you're a youngin!

And I'm sure you have a wife, 3 kids, an expensive car/house, a professional job, and are over 30 years old

J/K

redsai4lex · 07-20-2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

HOGAN
It's been stated and re-stated, but nobody did more for wrestling or brought it to a higher level. Without Hogan and Hulkamania in the 80s, there would be no Wrestlemania, no 93,000+ in the Silverdome, no PPV, no million-dollar contracts for wrestlers, no merchandise deals, no wrestlers starring in movies, no Austin, no Rock... no professional wrestling in America. Period.

SCOTT HALL
Hall didn't accomplish very much on his own, but he was part of the nWo, the angle that revolutionized wrestling in the 1990s and made WCW popular again, which in turn sparked the Monday Night Wars that led to the WWF rejuvenating its product.

KEVIN NASH
Pretty much the same. Without the nWo, WCW wouldn't have kicked the WWF's ass so badly in the ratings for two years, finally making Vince wake up and realize that his product was stale. Vince would have gone bankrupt by 1998 without that kick in the ass, and it all started with three letters: n-W-o. Far from the best ever, but his name will go down in history by association.

RANDY SAVAGE
Almost everyone alive has heard of the "Macho Man". That counts for something. He made himself a household name and managed to stand out even when he was standing in Hogan's shadow. And that's a BIG shadow.

RIC FLAIR
He's been called the greatest wrestler in history by a large number of people. Not too many people would dare disagree. He's had classic matches with almost everyone who ever set foot in a ring, and he did it without having to resort to taking chairshots and lighting himself on fire. I absolutely hated Flair as a kid, but as I grew up I realized that he really is one of the single greatest ever to lace up the boots.

JERRY LAWLER
Lawler's contributions are relatively negligible, I don't particularly feel he belongs on this list. He became a household name with the Andy Kaufman angle, but that was mostly played for laughs, so I don't really regard it as a strong contribution. Most fans don't even know he wrestled before he became an announcer.

BRET HART
Simply put, the greatest technical wrestler ever, maybe surpassed by Dean Malenko, but Bret Hart had classic matches with everyone, similar to Flair. Bret is almost a legitimate hero in many countries, respected by nearly everyone who watches wrestling. Some could argue that Bret was not one of the best ever. And those people would be wrong. His skills were unmatched, and it was those skills which earned him his reputation.

STING
The Franchise of WCW, probably the most popular wrestler they ever had. Had some of the most memorable matches in history with guys like Flair and Hogan, some of them going nearly an hour. He somehow managed to become the most popular wrestler in the world for a time without wrestling a match or saying a word for over a year. Maybe not quite THE best ever, but anyone who has seen his matches with Flair could make a case for it.

RICKY STEAMBOAT
Again, aside from his classic matches with Ric Flair back in the 1980s, the Dragon never really did much to stand out. He did compete with Ric Flair in a match many call the greatest match of all time, a 60-minute classic at Clash of the Champions VI in 1989. His series with Flair is still referred to by many as the greatest series of pure wrestling matches in recent memory, so that counts for something. Again, maybe not THE best ever, but some of his matches suggest it.

SHAWN MICHAELS
I absolutely hated him for a period of time, but I could never argue his talent. In the ring, there were few who were better. He could have a classic scientific encounter like the 60-Minute Iron Man Match at Wrestlemania 12, or he could have a down and dirty, brutal, absolute WAR with Kevin Nash at "In Your House: Good Friends, Better Enemies", a match that was hardcore before hardcore was "in" and maybe Nash's best match ever. Best part: Nash Jackknifes HBK through the announce table without bothering to clean it off first, monitors and all, and Michaels gets up looking like he's been in a car wreck. Then there was The Montreal Incident with Bret Hart, which provided the catalyst for the "Attitude Era". Anyone who would dispute Michaels skills and his contribution to the industry need only get "From The Vault" on DVD. He's a scumbag, but he's one of the greatest ever.

STEVE AUSTIN
I do not like Austin. I have been a fan of his at brief moments throughtout his career. I liked the Hollywood Blondes. I was a fan of "Stunning Steve" (catchphrase: "Your brush with greatness... is OVER!") I even liked him for a time back during the InVasion. As a whole, though, I find him rather repetitive. BUT, he definitely did contribute a lot to the industry, not so much in classic matches, as his really really GREAT matches were few and far between after his neck injury, but the Second Coming off the WWF in the 90s was carried on his back. He was like Hulk Hogan of the modern era on a slightly smaller scale. I begrudgingly have to admit, though I don't like Austin, he will be remembered for his accomplishments for a long, long time.

RODDY PIPER
Again, everyone knows "Hot Rod". He was Luthor to Hogan's Superman, the itch he just couldn't scratch, the constant annoyance that never really got taken care of properly. The guy that created Piper's Pit. The guy that kicked Cyndi Lauper in the head. The guy who talked trash to Mr. T on the set of the A-Team and single-handedly started the Rock and Wrestling Connection. The guy who bashed Jimmy Snuka with a coconut, something people still talk about 20 years later. He wasn't a great technical wrestler, but he had some classics like his Intercontinental Title defense against Bret hart at Wrestlemania 8 and his absolutely brutal Dog Collar Match against Greg "The Hammer" Valentine at the first Starrcade in 1983. If you can find it, track down "Rowdy Roddy Piper's Greatest Hits" on Coliseum Video to see just why Piper is so reknowned. A must-see if only for the scene where he interviews himself on Piper's Pit.

THE UNDERTAKER
Again, a somewhat questionable addition, as 'Taker is well-known more for his gimmick than his skills. His best match was against Shawn Michaels in the first Hell in a Cell at "In Your House: Bad Blood" in 1997. He never really had too many matches which fall under "all-time great" category, but his gimmick entertained many, and lasted far longer than anyone expected it to, so that's noteworthy I suppose. Trivia Fact: Vampiro was the WWF's first choice to portray the Undertaker character, but he passed on it over money and stayed in Mexico. The gimmick was given to Mark Calloway and the rest, as they say, is history.

ANDRE THE GIANT
One of the most well-known wrestlers in history throughout the entire world. Andre preferred to travel from place to place rather than settle in one promotion or territory, and as such fans the world over knew and loved Andre. When you're bigger than everyone else, it's easy to stand out. He was one of the most popular wrestlers in the world before turning heel and challenging Hulk Hogan in 1987. Their match at Wrestlemania III drew 93,173 people to the Pontiac Silverdome, and that match is often credited as the point where the WWF became a household name. Everyone wanted to see Hogan vs. Andre, and together they attracted a lot of people who normally didn't watch wrestling. Many of those fans stuck around. Andre is a legend in a class by himself.

GOLDBERG
Goldberg hasn't really been around long enough to make a huge impact, nor do I think he had many truly great matches. His best in-ring encounters were actually with Hulk Hogan and Diamond Dallas Page of all people. Regardless, he did become a household name for a period of time, and attracted a lot of fans to WCW at a time when the WWF was making a comeback. The match where he won the World Title from Hogan on Nitro got a rating that was, at its time, the highest ever for a wrestling match on cable television. So once again, maybe not one of the best ever but his prescence was definitely felt within the industry.

Thank You!!!

This helps the thread....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

BRET HART
Simply put, the greatest technical wrestler ever, maybe surpassed by Dean Malenko,

I think he is surpassed by Chris Benoit....

~~Leo656~~ · 07-20-2003, 08:43 PM

I think Bret and Benoit are about equal in terms of technical skill, and I think Malenko knows more scientific moves and holds than either of them, since both Bret and Benoit often resort to punches and chops as transitional moves while Malenko always preferred to use 99% scientific techniques to dominate his opponents. He seemed to go so far as to even invent new holds as he went along.

*R-iZZy* · 07-21-2003, 05:08 PM

THIS POLL IS CORRUPT!!! I SEE NO RHYNO!!!

View Poll Results: Who's the Best Ever???
Hulk Hogan	8	38.10%
Scott Hall	1	4.76%
Kevin Nash	1	4.76%
Randy Savage	2	9.52%
Ric Flair	1	4.76%
Jerry Lawler	0	0%
Bret Hart	3	14.29%
Sting	1	4.76%
Ricky Steamboat	0	0%
Shawn Michaels	1	4.76%
Steve Austin	0	0%
Roddy Piper	0	0%
The Undertaker	1	4.76%
Andre the Giant	2	9.52%
Goldberg	0	0%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

07-19-2003, 01:36 PM	#28
Raven follower of Jesus Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,212	man you people write to much walks out __________________ TMNT Future Despair Deviant Offical Ultimate Ninja Turtles Site!

07-21-2003, 05:08 PM	#35
R-iZZy The Long Con Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: G'ville, FL (Gator Country), USA Posts: 3,007	THIS POLL IS CORRUPT!!! I SEE NO RHYNO!!! __________________

07-19-2003, 10:21 AM	#22
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Smack yourself. I've literally been watching wrestling since before you or half of the people on this board were even born, Rez. Before you say something like "you must know nothing about Foley", check the facts and find out I've read both "Have a Nice Day" and "Foley is Good" repeatedly (yes, "Foley is Good" was written by him, by the way), and enjoyed them, followed his career since the WCW years (before he became a clown), through ECW, and into the WWF and the absolutely ridiculous crap they made him do there. I've also seen the Cactus Jack/Maxx Payne vs The Nasty Boys match from Spring Stampede 1994 (Foley's REAL best match) close to two dozen times. I even called myself a fan of his before he started pulling a sock out of his pants. So relax a little bit before you get all defensive and start saying things that aren't quite truth, there, sonny jim. No, Foley's contributions to the industry are nowhere near the level of guys like Hogan, and he does NOT deserve to be mentioned in their league, and he never did. Twenty years from now, people will be talking about the accomplishments of guys like Hogan and Piper and Savage and Andre, and they each contributed a lot to the sport of wrestling. But twenty years from now, people will be talking about Hell in the Cell, and Foley falling off the cage, and that's ALL. They won't be talking about how he lost his ear, most people in fact don't even remember (or at least, they rarely talk about that match in Munich, Germany when he lost his ear against Vader). Nobody talks about his I Quit match with Rock anymore. The only Foley-Funk matches MOST of his so-called fans have seen is the ridiculous "Chainsaw Charlie" matches in the WWF. All ANYONE who talks about Foley ever mentions is that God damned Hell in a Cell, and as a spectacle, it was entertaining, but as a MATCH it was awful. It was awful because aside from the two Big Falls, almost NOTHING HAPPENED the entire match because Taker had a broken ankle and Foley was almost dead after he took the big bumps. If your kind of match is one where two guys lumber around for a while to compensate for one of them suffering a severe concussion and nearly being killed, fine, but as a WRESTLING match, it was bad. The Undertaker-Shawn Michaels Hell in a Cell was a much better pure match and even a better brawl, with an actual storyline to the match. But I'm getting the feeling you're less of an actual wrestling fan and more a fan of the violent spectacle side of things. Again, fine, but it's not wrestling. I'll say again, I respect Foley for willing to put his body at risk for the sake of entertainment, but I also think he is a complete idiot for going to the lengths he did. Roddy Piper said it best when he, Hogan, and Foley were on Larry King together back in 1999: "You think these fans, or Vince McMahon, are going to give a damn about you when you're 60? Will they remember? Will they even care?" The answer, of course, is "not bloody likely". Not when a guy like Hulk Hogan, who did more for the industry of professional wrestling than ANYONE in history ever did, is openly mocked and ridiculed by many because of his age and his thinning hair, when in fact he ought to have every single fan and promoter bow down and kiss his ass because without what he did, there would BE no Wrestlemania, there would BE no WWF/WWE, there would have never been a WCW, the NWA would have gone belly-up some time in the late 1980s, and point blank, Mick Foley would have never been a professional wrestler, and if he was, he would have wrestled in front of 100 people in a gym for a few years before calling it quits in frustration. THAT is reality. If a lot of people don't even see fit to recognize Hogan's accomplishments, there's no way in hell they'll remember Foley's. For all he did, he'll always be remembered as a footnote in wrestling history. "The guy who fell off the Cell." "The guy who pulled a sock out of his tights." That's not much of a contribution. Yes, Foley has/had a lot of guts to do what he did. But again, that doesn't mean he actually made a substantial contribution. There's a thin line between courage and stupidity, and Foley walked it his entire career. In my opinion, he fell over more than once. People are ecstatic when they hear his name because they expect him to get hit in the head with chairs or fall off some high place. He often goes on about how the fans expect too much, but he's as much to blame as anyone. I don't get his fans. I really don't. How sadistic must a person be to root for their "favorite" to get the living hell beaten out of him? "Yeah, I love Foley! I love watching him get bludgeoned with chairs and blown up with C4! And when he almost got killed falling through the Cell, that was GREAT!" Point blank: The guy took a beating better than anyone, but that does NOT make him the greatest wrestler ever. Not even close. I respect him, but I also get an overwhelming feeling of "what a dumbass" when I watch his more brutal matches. It's weird... early in his career, he was regarded as a guy who loved to deliver punishment, and later on he was known as a guy who loved to take punishment. I wonder if he switched his style because he realized that he wasn't a very good wrestler and decided to play to his strengths: taking chairshots to the head. Try a little objectivity next time. I mean I think Diamond Dallas Page worked harder than anyone to improve himself, and he's one of my favorites, but I don't think he's anywhere near being the greatest wrestler of all time. And if the only thing "real" about wrestling to you is people getting bludgeoned with weapons, falling into C4 and falling off scaffolding, then you're not much of a fan. Anyway, you asked for a list of other wrestlers accomplishments, and that's easy enough to do. HOGAN It's been stated and re-stated, but nobody did more for wrestling or brought it to a higher level. Without Hogan and Hulkamania in the 80s, there would be no Wrestlemania, no 93,000+ in the Silverdome, no PPV, no million-dollar contracts for wrestlers, no merchandise deals, no wrestlers starring in movies, no Austin, no Rock... no professional wrestling in America. Period. SCOTT HALL Hall didn't accomplish very much on his own, but he was part of the nWo, the angle that revolutionized wrestling in the 1990s and made WCW popular again, which in turn sparked the Monday Night Wars that led to the WWF rejuvenating its product. KEVIN NASH Pretty much the same. Without the nWo, WCW wouldn't have kicked the WWF's ass so badly in the ratings for two years, finally making Vince wake up and realize that his product was stale. Vince would have gone bankrupt by 1998 without that kick in the ass, and it all started with three letters: n-W-o. Far from the best ever, but his name will go down in history by association. RANDY SAVAGE Almost everyone alive has heard of the "Macho Man". That counts for something. He made himself a household name and managed to stand out even when he was standing in Hogan's shadow. And that's a BIG shadow. RIC FLAIR He's been called the greatest wrestler in history by a large number of people. Not too many people would dare disagree. He's had classic matches with almost everyone who ever set foot in a ring, and he did it without having to resort to taking chairshots and lighting himself on fire. I absolutely hated Flair as a kid, but as I grew up I realized that he really is one of the single greatest ever to lace up the boots. JERRY LAWLER Lawler's contributions are relatively negligible, I don't particularly feel he belongs on this list. He became a household name with the Andy Kaufman angle, but that was mostly played for laughs, so I don't really regard it as a strong contribution. Most fans don't even know he wrestled before he became an announcer. BRET HART Simply put, the greatest technical wrestler ever, maybe surpassed by Dean Malenko, but Bret Hart had classic matches with everyone, similar to Flair. Bret is almost a legitimate hero in many countries, respected by nearly everyone who watches wrestling. Some could argue that Bret was not one of the best ever. And those people would be wrong. His skills were unmatched, and it was those skills which earned him his reputation. STING The Franchise of WCW, probably the most popular wrestler they ever had. Had some of the most memorable matches in history with guys like Flair and Hogan, some of them going nearly an hour. He somehow managed to become the most popular wrestler in the world for a time without wrestling a match or saying a word for over a year. Maybe not quite THE best ever, but anyone who has seen his matches with Flair could make a case for it. RICKY STEAMBOAT Again, aside from his classic matches with Ric Flair back in the 1980s, the Dragon never really did much to stand out. He did compete with Ric Flair in a match many call the greatest match of all time, a 60-minute classic at Clash of the Champions VI in 1989. His series with Flair is still referred to by many as the greatest series of pure wrestling matches in recent memory, so that counts for something. Again, maybe not THE best ever, but some of his matches suggest it. SHAWN MICHAELS I absolutely hated him for a period of time, but I could never argue his talent. In the ring, there were few who were better. He could have a classic scientific encounter like the 60-Minute Iron Man Match at Wrestlemania 12, or he could have a down and dirty, brutal, absolute WAR with Kevin Nash at "In Your House: Good Friends, Better Enemies", a match that was hardcore before hardcore was "in" and maybe Nash's best match ever. Best part: Nash Jackknifes HBK through the announce table without bothering to clean it off first, monitors and all, and Michaels gets up looking like he's been in a car wreck. Then there was The Montreal Incident with Bret Hart, which provided the catalyst for the "Attitude Era". Anyone who would dispute Michaels skills and his contribution to the industry need only get "From The Vault" on DVD. He's a scumbag, but he's one of the greatest ever. STEVE AUSTIN I do not like Austin. I have been a fan of his at brief moments throughtout his career. I liked the Hollywood Blondes. I was a fan of "Stunning Steve" (catchphrase: "Your brush with greatness... is OVER!") I even liked him for a time back during the InVasion. As a whole, though, I find him rather repetitive. BUT, he definitely did contribute a lot to the industry, not so much in classic matches, as his really really GREAT matches were few and far between after his neck injury, but the Second Coming off the WWF in the 90s was carried on his back. He was like Hulk Hogan of the modern era on a slightly smaller scale. I begrudgingly have to admit, though I don't like Austin, he will be remembered for his accomplishments for a long, long time. RODDY PIPER Again, everyone knows "Hot Rod". He was Luthor to Hogan's Superman, the itch he just couldn't scratch, the constant annoyance that never really got taken care of properly. The guy that created Piper's Pit. The guy that kicked Cyndi Lauper in the head. The guy who talked trash to Mr. T on the set of the A-Team and single-handedly started the Rock and Wrestling Connection. The guy who bashed Jimmy Snuka with a coconut, something people still talk about 20 years later. He wasn't a great technical wrestler, but he had some classics like his Intercontinental Title defense against Bret hart at Wrestlemania 8 and his absolutely brutal Dog Collar Match against Greg "The Hammer" Valentine at the first Starrcade in 1983. If you can find it, track down "Rowdy Roddy Piper's Greatest Hits" on Coliseum Video to see just why Piper is so reknowned. A must-see if only for the scene where he interviews himself on Piper's Pit. THE UNDERTAKER Again, a somewhat questionable addition, as 'Taker is well-known more for his gimmick than his skills. His best match was against Shawn Michaels in the first Hell in a Cell at "In Your House: Bad Blood" in 1997. He never really had too many matches which fall under "all-time great" category, but his gimmick entertained many, and lasted far longer than anyone expected it to, so that's noteworthy I suppose. Trivia Fact: Vampiro was the WWF's first choice to portray the Undertaker character, but he passed on it over money and stayed in Mexico. The gimmick was given to Mark Calloway and the rest, as they say, is history. ANDRE THE GIANT One of the most well-known wrestlers in history throughout the entire world. Andre preferred to travel from place to place rather than settle in one promotion or territory, and as such fans the world over knew and loved Andre. When you're bigger than everyone else, it's easy to stand out. He was one of the most popular wrestlers in the world before turning heel and challenging Hulk Hogan in 1987. Their match at Wrestlemania III drew 93,173 people to the Pontiac Silverdome, and that match is often credited as the point where the WWF became a household name. Everyone wanted to see Hogan vs. Andre, and together they attracted a lot of people who normally didn't watch wrestling. Many of those fans stuck around. Andre is a legend in a class by himself. GOLDBERG Goldberg hasn't really been around long enough to make a huge impact, nor do I think he had many truly great matches. His best in-ring encounters were actually with Hulk Hogan and Diamond Dallas Page of all people. Regardless, he did become a household name for a period of time, and attracted a lot of fans to WCW at a time when the WWF was making a comeback. The match where he won the World Title from Hogan on Nitro got a rating that was, at its time, the highest ever for a wrestling match on cable television. So once again, maybe not one of the best ever but his prescence was definitely felt within the industry. Don't test my wrestling knowledge again, boy, lest ye be beaten with the proverbial whippin' stick.

07-19-2003, 12:52 PM	#25
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Don't bother, Rez, don't even bother. Never mind what I said before in the other thread. By resorting to name calling like a child, you conceded the argument before it even got off the ground. Why is it that you can't have a single disagreement with ANYONE without resorting to attacking them personally? Get off your damn high horse, stop taking yourself so seriously, and stop acting like you're the only one whose opinion matters. I've seen you do it to other people and ignored it, but now you're trying it on me and it aint gonna work. Everything you're saying is your own damn opinion, and MY opinion is that your opinion sucks. Deal with it. "Idiot". How's that for square, huh? And by the way, I was two in 1984, and yes I was watching wrestling. Hogan vs Iron Sheik in a steel cage match on tv was one of my earliest memories. And the reason I don't "blow my load" in one post and just explain EVERYTHING I know about a given subject is due to not wanting to make one of my "uber-long posts" you and everyone else loves so much even longer. Duh, "Einstein" (sarcasm). Now step off, I'm done arguing with you. Go play in your sandbox while the big people talk like adults. When you want to debate without resorting to insults, name-calling, and all the other childish crap contained within your last post, I'll be more than happy to participate. Until then, I'm not gonna waste my time. If you feel so strongly about your own OPINION that you feel the need to call anyone who disagrees "brain damaged", then there's no point even talking to you.

07-19-2003, 01:38 PM	#29
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Doink was so lame. Though the original concept was neat. An evil clown is actually pretty interesting. Of course, Vince had to ruin it to sell merchandise.

07-20-2003, 05:17 AM	#30
GK Punk I'm your Devil Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,439	...Damn Rez, you're a youngin! ...Am I the only one here that WATCHED in 84... And remembers it?

07-20-2003, 08:09 AM	#31
EV Kielbasa King Mouser Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5	Scott Hall,best wrestler ever!

07-20-2003, 08:43 PM	#34
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I think Bret and Benoit are about equal in terms of technical skill, and I think Malenko knows more scientific moves and holds than either of them, since both Bret and Benoit often resort to punches and chops as transitional moves while Malenko always preferred to use 99% scientific techniques to dominate his opponents. He seemed to go so far as to even invent new holds as he went along.