Leo & Donnie-Should they butt heads?

[victory_angel]

Another probability for conflict is Leo pressuring Donnie about creating the retromutagen and accidentally says that they had wasted their last batch on Mr. O'Neil.

[Mona_Lisa]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

Yes IDW style.

Although we did see them squabbling a few times in the show.

Leo: Force field? Why didn't you tell me there's a force field?

Don: It's because I wanted our mission to fail. OBVIOUSLY I DIDN'T KNOW!

That was funny!!! Lol, I am a fan of Donnie's sarcasm...

Originally Posted by Bauer536

You make it sound like you want Donnie to be leader more than Leo. Maybe if Don proves himself, Leo will appoint him as second-in-command so Don can learn to be an effective leader. Also, I'd like to see Raph also butt heads with Don over leadership. Then it will show it's not the person that bothers him, but it's that he doesn't have the position.

Why the Raph hate? But yeah, Raph wouldn't like that.

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

am I the only one getting annoyed that Donnie is getting all the attention in the show??

no? just me?.....okay.

O no, The Leo Donnie focus is getting old... And I love Donnie!
Show me Mikey get his feelings hurt and be sad!!!!
Show the side of Raph that loves and cares for his brothers!!! There is so much more to Raph than just his Hot headed nature!!!!

Originally Posted by pingclang

Actually, I agree. He's probably the most fleshed out character. We've seen and learned more about him than the others. I really want to see some this much attention given to the others, maybe an episode each season to focus on the individual turtle? Show us more of why Raph gets mad, show us Leo failing and having to overcome and poor Mikey learning something. You're not alone.

As for the topic, yeah, I want a lot of headbutting. Someone with that amount of intelligence isnt going to just blindly follow someone. If they think it's stupid, they'll let you know what's wrong with it. Trust me, I live in a college town and have a lot of friends who consider themselves geniuses and do that sort of thing all the time. They should butt heads, I wanna see the brothers, not just Leo and Don, fighting more. Brothers don't get along as well as the Turtles do, they argue, fight and make up. I want more of that. Sorry for the long responses.

^^^Agree with this!

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Personally, I'd much rather see some time devoted to fleshing out Mikey and Raph a bit more, especially the youngest, since he seems to get so little attention in this one other than as comic relief- a fact which irks me greatly. I like his sense of humor in Nick, but they've made him seem way too dumb, and I'd like to see him mature a bit and start to grow as a character- and that includes intellectually.

Yeah, I like Mikey as the silly little brother, But no one is happy and upbeat all the time!!!! Mikey needs fleshed out!!!
I want to see him get his feelings hurt or be sad, I want to see how his brothers react!

Originally Posted by Rooish

No. Leo should have more respect for Donnie instead of butting heads. Leo is increasingly a dismissive, alpha male jerk.

Agreed, also, that Don is getting a bit too much screen time. I kind of hate Raph but I think he needs a bit more focus.

Hate Raph Wow!
In some incarnations I though Leo was an "alpha male jerk" but not this one...

Originally Posted by Warhorse

We've been seeing the same thing for quite some time, let's see some changes. Let the writers get a little unpredictable, like I said, it won't be too off the beaten path to have Donnie loose his cool a little and get a little snarky with Leo.

Yeah, because The new Donnie IS snarky at times! but I like

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I personally would love to see Leo and Donnie clash about something. I just feel it would be interesting. I wouldn't want it on the level of Leo and Raph, but something. It would be nice to see how Raph and Mikey would react to something like that since it would be so out of the ordinary, or how the conflict will be resolved and the lesson learned.

It would make my day if this plot came to pass and Raph would flip out trying to somehow "fix" things between his brothers in his own Raph way (that would probably mean he would accidently make things worse). But there would be heart there!!!

[Midnight Mutant]

I think yes. It seems they are kind of leading up to it, especially when it comes to Karai. Even if he wasn't as vocal about it as Raph, his neutrality was pretty much shattered with the face expressions he would make and over all attitude.

It would be interesting, but I wouldn't want it to be as powerful or petty as Raph's issues with Leo, and I wouldn't want it to be a permanent state of relationship for them. Because I see Donnie being very loyal to Leo and neutral with most arguments.

Siblings do fight and butt heads over more serious issues because usually they tell each other what the other doesn't want to hear. Questioning Leo's recent choices or confronting the consequences with him would cause a lot of tension, especially from a neutral party.

If Donnie and Raph both butt heads with Leo, even temp, this could cause Leo to go off on his own and eventually get hurt like in Leonardo #1. Since I'm sure Shredder will be out for them more than ever now.

So over all: Yes. Just not permanently or constantly.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Often the second in command is not just an auxiliary leader. It is also their job to (temporarily) unseat the leader if he feels the Leader is acting with reckless disregard for the safety of the team.

Oh yeah, in some ways, I think Leo may view Donnie as the "second in command" type, you know? On Leo's T-phone, for Donnie, he used a Space Hero character....I think it's the "Spock" type character. Not the one who gets slapped all the time. The alien one or maybe it's the "McCoy" character. Dr. Mindstrong...

Never mind. It's Dr. Mindstrong. I wonder what pics he has for Raph and Mikey, if he's using Space Hero characters.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Mona_Lisa

That was funny!!! Lol, I am a fan of Donnie's sarcasm...

Same here. I love it and with a person like Rob voicing him, it's perfect.

O no, The Leo Donnie focus is getting old... And I love Donnie!

I feel the same, and I'm favoring both Leo and Donnie for this incarnation. This is the first time I've ever favored Leo in any incarnation, but I do agree that Raph and Mikey need to be dealt with more. I mentioned that too in one of the other threads here...I think in the things you want to see in season 3 thread.

Show me Mikey get his feelings hurt and be sad!!!!

Yeah, I would like this as well. Mikey is generally in a good mood, most of the time. He also comes across as carefree. Maybe if they do the one-shot (or closer to it), they'll show Mikey dealing with it in his own way. In the comics, he took out his frustrations on the a punching bag in the barn, didn't he? And in movie 1, they showed him punching the punching bag. Also, movie 1 Mikey didn't want to fathom the death of Splinter and avoided it. I want to see something like that with this incarnation, to show that there is more to him than just his being a compassionate prankster and natural fighter (I still feel he's the best fighter out of the four as he does seem the most natural to it). I also like to think that there's a dark side to him that may come out when totally necessary. I got that impression from Pizza Face. ^^

Show the side of Raph that loves and cares for his brothers!!! There is so much more to Raph than just his Hot headed nature!!!!

Well, I think he does show he cares about them, just in his own "tough love" type of way. Like when Mikey was upset over what happened with Bradford and how he used him, he cheered Mikey up or in the "Sadorable" ep with Donnie, at the end of the episode, he was bragging to April about how cool Donnie was. He has his moments. I think one of the best ones was in Slash's debut ep. He complained about his brothers, but was quick to protect them and even explained to Slash what good friends/brothers do for one another.

Yeah, I like Mikey as the silly little brother, But no one is happy and upbeat all the time!!!! Mikey needs fleshed out!!!
I want to see him get his feelings hurt or be sad, I want to see how his brothers react!

Most definitely! I'd love to see how the other three would try to cheer him up. IMO, they (even Splinter) seem to take him for granted. If he was really down, how would the others react? Such an interesting possibility.

Yeah, because The new Donnie IS snarky at times! but I like

Most of my favorite lines for this series so far have come from Donnie, like his snarky, sarcastic, "Maybe it's a Kraang prom...HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW?!" line or that other one where Leo asked why he didn't tell him about the force field and Donnie was like, "Because I wanted us to fail. How was I supposed to know?!" I love those moments.

It would make my day if this plot came to pass and Raph would flip out trying to somehow "fix" things between his brothers in his own Raph way (that would probably mean he would accidently make things worse). But there would be heart there!!!

That would be interesting too, if it did turn out that way.

[JTH]

I think it's bound to happen.

From what we've come to learn from Donnie's character, he is very emotional when it comes to how he handles stress and pressure.

Donnie has so much on his plate right now based on preparing for this upcoming Kraang invasion, preparing the "Turtle Mech", and continuing to make more Retro-Mutagen.

And now we will surely have Leo and the others wanting Donnie to cure Karai during all this, another person who made a decision that caused their own fate and now has been thrown at the feet of Donnie to fix. That's has to be very hard to take knowing he's literally the only person that can do anything about it.

Basically, it's another Timothy ordeal, the only difference being he is responsible for Timothy's fate and knows he is obligated to help Timothy to right his own wrong that he did.

Leo will probably push Donnie to put Karai ahead of everyone else because she's family, but Donatello may feel that he shouldn't because her decision to leave the lair resulted in her fate and they should focus more on curing people who were unfortunate victims, which would be why Mr. O'Neil was always top priority to them, because they themselves caused what happened to April's dad.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by Mona_Lisa

It would make my day if this plot came to pass and Raph would flip out trying to somehow "fix" things between his brothers in his own Raph way (that would probably mean he would accidently make things worse). But there would be heart there!!!

Agreed; that would be great to see. Somehow, I don't think he'd react too well to friction between the siblings (that wasn't him and Leo!).

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by jth

Leo will probably push Donnie to put Karai ahead of everyone else because she's family, but Donatello may feel that he shouldn't because her decision to leave the lair resulted in her fate and they should focus more on curing people who were unfortunate victims, which would be why Mr. O'Neil was always top priority to them, because they themselves caused what happened to April's dad.

I think Donnie will attempt to create a retromutagen for Karai but from the sound of things is it takes a few months to create. And Leo would be pressuring him about it saying "I need this now, Donnie! Not next week, not next month, now! Don't you get that?!"

And I can certainly see Leo verbally slapping Donnie in the face with using his first batch of retromutagen on April's dad. Which in turn will cause the other Turtles along with April and Casey to say "Whoa man, not cool!"

[Shark_Blade]

It won't be easy since Karai was not exposed to normal mutagen, something was added accidentally to it by Baxter.

Maybe that's why Donnie said "I dunno, Mikey.." But how did he know, or was that just his gut feeling?

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

It won't be easy since Karai was not exposed to normal mutagen, something was added accidentally to it by Baxter.

Maybe that's why Donnie said "I dunno, Mikey.." But how did he know, or was that just his gut feeling?

I figured he said that because he didn't have anymore mutagen.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I figured he said that because he didn't have anymore mutagen.

I think he may have suspected something was different with the mutation if Shredder was going out of his way to use her as bait like that. But I think it's more like he has a lot on his plate already, after all he has said that it takes ten canisters of mutagen in order to make only a small bit of retro mutagen.

In Follow the leader Donnie did say they had 63 more canisters of mutagen to find. We don't know how many the Turtles have found behind the scenes, same with the Foot and Baxter Stockman. We know Donnie has gone through quite a few canisters in his initial attempts at making the Retromutagen, and Mutagen man has eaten a number of them as well.

So if there are any canisters still out there, then it is unlikely that the Shredder will allow the Turtles to hunt for them with Tigerclaw in his employ.

On top of this there is the Kraang invasion to prepare for which technically does hold more precedence over Karai.

So if things are being set up for Leo and Donnie to get into a serious depute. Not just a squabble but an actual serious situation that causes tension between them.

It would either involve Leo pressuring Donnie about something and resulting in him saying something that makes him come across as an jerk-ass.

Or Donnie tries to reason with him and get him to see that going after the Shredder right now would be suicide. I.E. the you don't want justice, you want vengeance talk. And that results in Leo saying or doing something that makes him sound like a jerk-ass.

Or a combination of both.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I think he may have suspected something was different with the mutation if Shredder was going out of his way to use her as bait like that. But I think it's more like he has a lot on his plate already, after all he has said that it takes ten canisters of mutagen in order to make only a small bit of retro mutagen.

Hm, yeah, maybe that's it. I didn't think about that.

In Follow the leader Donnie did say they had 63 more canisters of mutagen to find. We don't know how many the Turtles have found behind the scenes, same with the Foot and Baxter Stockman. We know Donnie has gone through quite a few canisters in his initial attempts at making the Retromutagen, and Mutagen man has eaten a number of them as well.

To be honest, I actually forgot that they were searching for mutagen canisters after Slash's debut episode.

So if there are any canisters still out there, then it is unlikely that the Shredder will allow the Turtles to hunt for them with Tigerclaw in his employ.

I could see him sending out his Footbots to retrieve them. I wish the last few eps were around now! I wish they aired animated shows the way they do in Japan. They air an episode every week. Maybe have a break for like a holiday, or whatever, but generally Japan usually airs a new episode of their shows every week. If a series has 26 episodes, it'll get aired 26 weeks in a row or either the breaks would be shorter.

On top of this there is the Kraang invasion to prepare for which technically does hold more precedence over Karai.

Could you see Donnie working in his lab on the mech, and Leo constantly bugging him about doing something for Karai in his way, which pushes Donnie over the edge? Seriously, conflict or no, I want Donnie to lose it. Both he and Leo seem to be in situations where they have to deal with the most stress compared to that of Raph and Mikey (that we know of). Donnie feeling bad for Timothy and feeling responsible for that (wish they'd go back to it), working on a retro mutagen constantly, worrying over the Kraang, and now he has to worry about Karai. He just has to explode at some point, imo.

So if things are being set up for Leo and Donnie to get into a serious depute. Not just a squabble but an actual serious situation that causes tension between them.

I'm hoping beyond hope for this, mainly because, for me, this would be a first. I never got around to reading/collecting the IDW series, so I've never experienced reading or seeing turtles material where they had serious conflict.

It would either involve Leo pressuring Donnie about something and resulting in him saying something that makes him come across as an jerk-ass.

Or Donnie tries to reason with him and get him to see that going after the Shredder right now would be suicide. I.E. the you don't want justice, you want vengeance talk. And that results in Leo saying or doing something that makes him sound like a jerk-ass.

Leo can say things "jerky" sometimes, but I don't think it's intentional, just as how you put it. Maybe he'll say something where he'll end up putting his foot in his mouth. I wonder if Leo will want vengeance more than Splinter for what happened to Karai.

Also, I was just thinking...if the show goes on this path and maybe have Leo/Donnie conflict, maybe it'll be due to guilt. Maybe Leo'll feel so guilty, that he's not being rational and will be taking his guilt out on Donnie which will lead to their dispute. If they do have this type of conflict, maybe a "vision quest" will set them all straight again.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Another probability for conflict is Leo pressuring Donnie about creating the retromutagen and accidentally says that they had wasted their last batch on Mr. O'Neil.

Leo would never say or think something like that. He considers April as a great friend, and she is well respected by Splinter. This line of thinking simply would not exist in Leo. I can't see any of the Turtles thinking that way, due to the fact that Splinter is fine in his rat form and is more than capable of taking care of himself. April's dad, not so much.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Leo would never say or think something like that. He considers April as a great friend, and she is well respected by Splinter. This line of thinking simply would not exist in Leo. I can't see any of the Turtles thinking that way, due to the fact that Splinter is fine in his rat form and is more than capable of taking care of himself. April's dad, not so much.

Well, I couldn't see him saying something that extreme, but I could still see him pressuring Donnie to make a retromutagen for Karai and Leo maybe unintentionally, emotionally and frustratingly getting on Donnie for his lack of progress or something.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

Well, I couldn't see him saying something that extreme, but I could still see him pressuring Donnie to make a retromutagen for Karai and Leo maybe unintentionally, emotionally and frustratingly getting on Donnie for his lack of progress or something.

Pressuring Donnie, yes, but he would never say something as cold hearted as "wasting the retromutagen on April's dad". Like I said, that kind of thinking would never compute in Leo. It's why he always held out hope for Karai, because he tries to look for the good in things, not the bad.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Pressuring Donnie, yes, but he would never say something as cold hearted as "wasting the retromutagen on April's dad". Like I said, that kind of thinking would never compute in Leo. It's why he always held out hope for Karai, because he tries to look for the good in things, not the bad.

I still feel he can offend Donnie in some way if he gives into his emotions, though, hence why I used "unintentional". Maybe he wouldn't say something that extreme, but he, or either Donnie, could say something to cause some kind of conflict, given the stress they will be under, imo.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I still feel he can offend Donnie in some way if he gives into his emotions, though, hence why I used "unintentional". Maybe he wouldn't say something that extreme, but he, or either Donnie, could say something to cause some kind of conflict, given the stress they will be under, imo.

I don't think Leo would intentionally say something like that. But if it's a foot in his mouth reaction it is possible.

Maybe Leo is on Donnie's case about getting the Retromutagen, while Donnie is making the Turtle Mech. Donnie gets frustrated enough to dish out the facts to Leo about how long it takes to make Retromutagen and on top of this there is a pending Kraang invasion to worry about.

Then Leo sticks his foot in his mouth and says something that is more like a slap in the face to Donnie, and one thing that could be like that is "If you hadn't wasted your last batch on Mr. O'Neil we wouldn't be having this argument! (realizes what he had just said)"

[ssjup81]

I still couldn't see him saying something like that, even if it is a foot in mouth situation. That's just too harsh.

That aside, I rewatched Kuro Kabuto. Does Donnie truly respect Leo as leader? Yeah he listens to him, but I found it strange how he didn't really defend Leo to Raph when they were arguing over his leadership role.

I do wonder if he could have some slight resentment towards Leo, but just internalizes it.

It's like Raph, only he probably talked to Spike over it. When Slash attacked Leo, he went on about wanting to do that for a long time.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I still couldn't see him saying something like that, even if it is a foot in mouth situation. That's just too harsh.

We would wait and see. I mean Leo is upset about what happend to Karai, he also wants to have Karai restored to being a human, and he wants Shredder to pay for what he has done to their family.

So I can honestly see Donnie trying to reason with Leo at least. Donnie has been known to act as team therapist sometimes. But we have seen signs that his patients with Leo regarding Karai does have its limit.

Originally Posted by ssjup81

That aside, I rewatched Kuro Kabuto. Does Donnie truly respect Leo as leader? Yeah he listens to him, but I found it strange how he didn't really defend Leo to Raph when they were arguing over his leadership role.

I do wonder if he could have some slight resentment towards Leo, but just internalizes it.

It's like Raph, only he probably talked to Spike over it. When Slash attacked Leo, he went on about wanting to do that for a long time.

He's a bit more respectful then Raph and Mikey are, after all he has indicated that he trusts Leo more then Raph and Mikey. However there are moments where even he believes that Leo is fooling himself and Karai is one of those said moments.

We know Donnie has stated he hates Karai when he first encounters her and yes he was the only turtle who was visibly upset that Leo didn't trust any of his brothers enough to inform them about her. Raph is more along the lines of disappointed because he had seen Karai before and knew she was bad news from the start. And Mikey was more confused about what had transpired. Plus Donnie is the only other Turtle who has a human love interest so his statement of "I can't believe you didn't trust any of us to tell us." Can be interpreted as "I can't believe you didn't trust *Me* enough to come to me about this"

Like Raph, Donnie has little reason to like or trust Karai. She's was raised by and is associated the Foot and she has tried to kill April on at least two occasions. And she has put them in mortal danger as well.

As a kunoichi Karai is trained to use seduction as one of her weapons. So Donnie may understand that Leo's feelings are real which is why he's not on the "Forget about Karai" bandwagon. But he doesn't see any good coming from the relationship because Karai is still a loose cannon in several regards.

And then when they learn Karai is Splinter's missing daughter that lends to weight to Leo sensing that there is good in her. However there is still the question whether or not she is a lost cause. Because even if she did learn Splinter was her father she could still convincingly play the innocent act and stab them in the back when their guard it down.

When Karai informs them that she believes Splinter is her father and Leo takes her to the lair. Donnie does visibly balk at this because even if she wasn't lying through her teeth, it was too soon to have her come to their secret lair because she very well could be leading the Foot Clan to their home. And her betrayal towards Tiger Claw at the end it could still be possible for it to be an act as well.

Also one of Leo's greatest flaws in this incarnation in particular is that he doesn't consider how his brothers views on something. It feels more like he has something he wants done and he expects his brothers to go along with it no matter what.

Hence Leo's line of "So I'm only leader unless it's something you don't want to do?" Regardless it still Donnie who is the one who just sighs and says "Fine, we're going with you." Because they are still a team and a family. And in all good faith they just couldn't stand aside knowing Leo was going to face the Shredder on his own to retrieve Karai.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

We would wait and see. I mean Leo is upset about what happend to Karai, he also wants to have Karai restored to being a human, and he wants Shredder to pay for what he has done to their family.

Definitely. I still wonder if Leo will be more vengeful than Splinter. That's how I feel anyway...or hoping for it.

So I can honestly see Donnie trying to reason with Leo at least. Donnie has been known to act as team therapist sometimes. But we have seen signs that his patients with Leo regarding Karai does have its limit.

I could see that too. I'm expecting it, just like how he was in Wrath of Tigerclaw.

He's a bit more respectful then Raph and Mikey are, after all he has indicated that he trusts Leo more then Raph and Mikey. However there are moments where even he believes that Leo is fooling himself and Karai is one of those said moments.

We know Donnie has stated he hates Karai when he first encounters her and yes he was the only turtle who was visibly upset that Leo didn't trust any of his brothers enough to inform them about her.

I definitely noticed that. He was wearing a bit of a scowl during Leo's confession.

Raph is more along the lines of disappointed because he had seen Karai before and knew she was bad news from the start. And Mikey was more confused about what had transpired. Plus Donnie is the only other Turtle who has a human love interest so his statement of "I can't believe you didn't trust any of us to tell us." Can be interpreted as "I can't believe you didn't trust *Me* enough to come to me about this"

It definitely can be interpreted in that way. When Raph argued with Leo that time about keeping Karai secret from the others, he was like, "Do you think Donnie and Mikey wouldn't understand?....Do you think Donnie wouldn't understand?" I figured Raph said that because of Donnie's crush on April. And, like it was mentioned earlier, when Donnie said that, he had a bit of a scowl that didn't fully let up.

Like Raph, Donnie has little reason to like or trust Karai. She's was raised by and is associated the Foot and she has tried to kill April on at least two occasions. And she has put them in mortal danger as well.

He seemed to react indifferently to Karai when she kinda became an ally (recent eps) but hateful of course while she was still an enemy. I found it interesting how he technically beat her in Target: April O'Neil right before Chromedome showed up.

As a kunoichi Karai is trained to use seduction as one of her weapons. So Donnie may understand that Leo's feelings are real which is why he's not on the "Forget about Karai" bandwagon. But he doesn't see any good coming from the relationship because Karai is still a loose cannon in several regards.

I agree to an extent, I couldn't see him still feeling such a way now after recent events.

And then when they learn Karai is Splinter's missing daughter that lends to weight to Leo sensing that there is good in her. However there is still the question whether or not she is a lost cause. Because even if she did learn Splinter was her father she could still convincingly play the innocent act and stab them in the back when their guard it down.

Definitely, just not now.

When Karai informs them that she believes Splinter is her father and Leo takes her to the lair. Donnie does visibly balk at this because even if she wasn't lying through her teeth, it was too soon to have her come to their secret lair because she very well could be leading the Foot Clan to their home. And her betrayal towards Tiger Claw at the end it could still be possible for it to be an act as well.

I liked that part...but then later defended Leo's actions to Raph. His reaction after Splinter said that Shredder's forces were probably on their way was great. Based on that, I could see him questioning Karai's motives after. It was like a slap in the face since he defended Leo to Raph...but as I said earlier, due to the changing circumstances, I couldn't see him having any reason to feel that way.

Also one of Leo's greatest flaws in this incarnation in particular is that he doesn't consider how his brothers views on something. It feels more like he has something he wants done and he expects his brothers to go along with it no matter what.

Yeah, I've noticed this as well, like in Follow the Leader or even Parasitica (sp?). Personally, I felt Mikey's idea was a good one and it made sense given the situation. Capture it and then take it out as opposed to endangering Mikey, using him as bait. They should've combined Leo and Mikey's plan.

Hence Leo's line of "So I'm only leader unless it's something you don't want to do?" Regardless it still Donnie who is the one who just sighs and says "Fine, we're going with you." Because they are still a team and a family. And in all good faith they just couldn't stand aside knowing Leo was going to face the Shredder on his own to retrieve Karai.

That too, but the fact that he didn't say anything speaks volumes to me. He chose to do so because it was the right thing to do, not because he seemed to agree fully with Leo's leadership authority, like Raph. To me, it's like he was questioning it....just internally. I just get the impression that he doesn't fully see him as leader.

That aside, I wonder if something will happen with Snake Karai that will really cloud Leo's judgment and Donnie has to be the logical one to try and have him see reason, like in Mutagen Man Unleashed where Leo had to have Donnie realize that Timothy was gone and that he was no longer the Timothy he knew. The difference being is that reason won't get through to Leo because of how much more personal it is.

If there's a foot in mouth moment for Leo, maybe I could see him saying something harsh regarding Timothy, putting Karai's welfare ahead of his. Maybe he could say something like he chose to be mutated, Karai didn't. I dunno...I just couldn't see him saying something harsh regarding Kirby.