"Secret Wars" Event To Merge Mainstream And Ultimate Marvel Universes Together

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Really? You think so?
Because I don't, and I say that as a Marvel fan a bit older than both you and Cyber.

I really like Kamala, but then...I've always been a fan of "Slice of Life" stories.
Give me the X-Men playing touch-no powers-football on the front law of the Xavier Institute over building punching fight action any day.

Anyhow, catering to fossils like us isn't going to get Marvel the money it needs to keep its print run in the black.

Comics fans are the biggest babies. Just say you don't like a thing, then don't buy a thing, and leave it at that. There's no need for personal attacks on the creators, even in hyperbole.

I mean....seriously Duckie? Wanting to shoot the author of Ms Marvel. She's actually a personal friend of mine. Feel bad about your word choice.

If you are, it's probably not by much. Over 40, then? What the heck does that even have to do with it?

Yes, I like "slice of life" stuff too, but THIS- it just felt forced and boring, and very cliché. She's the typical whiney, rebellious teen of a strict religious upbringing (and this isn't just a Muslim thing, but they played that trope HEAVILY) trying to "be her own person" by defying her parents. I saw it coming after the second page, and that's really sad. I couldn't even find anything to like about the characters, as they were all so very one-dimensional that I just didn't care about them at all. Not ONE.

Also, you DO realize I was speaking metaphorically, right? Not that I'd ever actually shoot the writer, but this is one of the worst writing mistakes a person can make, and it was so glaringly obvious it pretty much ruined any possible enjoyment I could've had from seeing a fresh take on a character- not that I wanted one to begin with, but creating a new character for the sake of change and/or diversity is just- cheap. Maybe it's not the writer but the editorial staff's decree, don't know, and don't care. It was just very trite and predictable. And boring. Did I mention boring?

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

Racial stereotyped? How is Kamala's family racially stereotyped? Cause she has strict parents that are religious??(they do exist, my parents are religious and watched what I did)

how do you want her family to act like? How would you prefer Kamala act like?

Have you ever met a Muslim family before? (no seriously have you? maybe I'm ignorant)

Ya know maybe I'm young but Kamala is someone I can relate too.....you can have your old characters I'll take my new ones.

also she's an inhuman.

Strict religious upbringing isn't JUST restricted to Islamic families, you know. My own grandmother is one of the biggest strict church-goers I've ever known, and would flip out if she knew I was Wiccan. You think Muslims are bad about strict upbringings? Try dealing with die-hard conservative Christians who want to "save your soul" the minute they find out you have a different faith, because they automatically assume it's devil-worship. Trust me, I've heard them all. Or a Mormon boyfriend I had in high school who couldn't even watch R-rated movies, drink caffeine, or.... You get the idea. So Islam doesn't have a monopoly on that sort of thing. But they used just about every Muslim trope in the book with this family- the well-meaning but traditional strict father, the over-protective, guilt-tripper mother ("You've shamed your family!") and the devout "wanna-be holy man" brother. Seriously, it was all very blatant and annoying.

And yes, I've known a few, I even have a few Muslim and Hindu families that are regular customers where I work, and I see how they act. But it's clear the writer just went with the obvious religious stereotypes instead of making them more three-dimensional people with real interests and lives.

How would I want them to act? Can't say, really, but it's not THAT. I was rolling my eyes at her mother's histrionics every other page, her dad being the "this is for your own good" tyrant type, and her friend just being the "perfect Muslim girl" who seems content to go along with tradition, while Kamala herself seems to rebel at every little thing, all while complaining that "no one understands me!" (And either geeking out or advertising her geek status in almost every panel.) She's the minister's daughter in Footloose, but with a different faith. Which I guess makes her friend at the Circle Q Kevin Bacon....

I could maybe relate to her fan-fic writing- that part was kind of neat- but the rest? She just wasn't very likable for me, because it felt too much like she was SUPPOSED to be likable, with no real GOOD reason for her to be. The writer was trying too hard to MAKE the reader like her.

Also- how is she an Inhuman? They were a separate RACE from the humans of earth, and the Tuigan Mist doesn't affect normal humans the same way it does them. It doesn't even affect mutants the same way- it can restore lost powers, but always warps them somehow.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

If you are, it's probably not by much. Over 40, then? What the heck does that even have to do with it?

Yes, I like "slice of life" stuff too, but THIS- it just felt forced and boring, and very cliché. She's the typical whiney, rebellious teen of a strict religious upbringing (and this isn't just a Muslim thing, but they played that trope HEAVILY) trying to "be her own person" by defying her parents. I saw it coming after the second page, and that's really sad. I couldn't even find anything to like about the characters, as they were all so very one-dimensional that I just didn't care about them at all. Not ONE.

Also, you DO realize I was speaking metaphorically, right? Not that I'd ever actually shoot the writer, but this is one of the worst writing mistakes a person can make, and it was so glaringly obvious it pretty much ruined any possible enjoyment I could've had from seeing a fresh take on a character- not that I wanted one to begin with, but creating a new character for the sake of change and/or diversity is just- cheap. Maybe it's not the writer but the editorial staff's decree, don't know, and don't care. It was just very trite and predictable. And boring. Did I mention boring?





Strict religious upbringing isn't JUST restricted to Islamic families, you know. My own grandmother is one of the biggest strict church-goers I've ever known, and would flip out if she knew I was Wiccan. You think Muslims are bad about strict upbringings? Try dealing with die-hard conservative Christians who want to "save your soul" the minute they find out you have a different faith, because they automatically assume it's devil-worship. Trust me, I've heard them all. Or a Mormon boyfriend I had in high school who couldn't even watch R-rated movies, drink caffeine, or.... You get the idea. So Islam doesn't have a monopoly on that sort of thing. But they used just about every Muslim trope in the book with this family- the well-meaning but traditional strict father, the over-protective, guilt-tripper mother ("You've shamed your family!") and the devout "wanna-be holy man" brother. Seriously, it was all very blatant and annoying.

And yes, I've known a few, I even have a few Muslim and Hindu families that are regular customers where I work, and I see how they act. But it's clear the writer just went with the obvious religious stereotypes instead of making them more three-dimensional people with real interests and lives.

How would I want them to act? Can't say, really, but it's not THAT. I was rolling my eyes at her mother's histrionics every other page, her dad being the "this is for your own good" tyrant type, and her friend just being the "perfect Muslim girl" who seems content to go along with tradition, while Kamala herself seems to rebel at every little thing, all while complaining that "no one understands me!" (And either geeking out or advertising her geek status in almost every panel.) She's the minister's daughter in Footloose, but with a different faith. Which I guess makes her friend at the Circle Q Kevin Bacon....

I could maybe relate to her fan-fic writing- that part was kind of neat- but the rest? She just wasn't very likable for me, because it felt too much like she was SUPPOSED to be likable, with no real GOOD reason for her to be. The writer was trying too hard to MAKE the reader like her.

Also- how is she an Inhuman? They were a separate RACE from the humans of earth, and the Tuigan Mist doesn't affect normal humans the same way it does them. It doesn't even affect mutants the same way- it can restore lost powers, but always warps them somehow.

Well the writer of Kamala Khan is Muslim herself so........ I don't know...who better to write Kamala than someone who is Muslim?

She is inhuman, she has inhuman genes that were sparked up with the help of the mist. (pretty sure that's what's up with the mist)

I know she's inhuman though.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Which, if you know anything about the Inhumans, makes NO sense at all. They all live on the moon, in their own kingdom. They rarely even have any direct dealings with Earth itself except for Blackbolt and occasionally Medusa and Crystal. They also are NOT Muslim or even Middle-Eastern in ethnicity. They are literally an ALIEN-created race unto themselves. And AFAIK, they don't interbreed with humans, either. So HOW could she even BE one?

And if the Mist is what was floating around the city, then someone has no idea how it actually works. Not sure how she could have any Inhuman genes at all, much less BE one without being among them. Which would negate the entire point of making her Muslim in the first place, because that just means her "family" really ISN'T. I only read the vol. 1 TPB, since it was all they had, but the mist doesn't just give powers to ANYONE- even the Inhumans have to use a special ritual to gain powers- and it doesn't even always work. Some of them end up horribly deformed or have other odd effects, like Lockjaw ending up as a mute dog.

What I'm getting out of it all is that the book fails on several levels. Which is a shame, because there really aren't enough female writers in comics, but if this is the best we can get from the few that are out there- I'm disappointed.

[plastroncafe]

Did you miss my use of the word " hyperbole"? Because I used it for a reason. "Metaphorically" or not threatening violence against another person because you don't like the comic book they wrote, is juvenile. You should be better than that. Rise to the challenge.

I remember people on this board getting really unhappy when someone jokingly threatened to "bathe the in the unworthy blood" of a creator they didn't like, which is far less likely to happen than someone from Texas just up and shooting another person.

You don't like a thing, congratulations.
A lot of other people do like it.

And I mentioned my age because you seem insistent on the idea that the comic industry should be catering to dinosaurs like us, and that these new changes would drive us away. They're not driving me away, and if they're driving you away by trying to keep themselves dynamic and tell interesting stories? Good riddance.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

And I mentioned my age because you seem insistent on the idea that the comic industry should be catering to dinosaurs like us

The comic industry still caters to dinosaurs. The ones in charge.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Did you miss my use of the word " hyperbole"? Because I used it for a reason. "Metaphorically" or not threatening violence against another person because you don't like the comic book they wrote, is juvenile. You should be better than that. Rise to the challenge.

I remember people on this board getting really unhappy when someone jokingly threatened to "bathe the in the unworthy blood" of a creator they didn't like, which is far less likely to happen than someone from Texas just up and shooting another person.

And I mentioned my age because you seem insistent on the idea that the comic industry should be catering to dinosaurs like us, and that these new changes would drive us away. They're not driving me away, and if they're driving you away by trying to keep themselves dynamic and tell interesting stories? Good riddance.

Oh that's real cute- comparing me to a couple of psycho shooters who HAPPEN to be in my state, just because I make ONE comment about a writer's ability. Real classy- do yourself a favor, and take your own advice about being better than that.

As for age and catering to "dinosaurs"- last I checked, we're in the age demographic most likely to have the money to buy comics, not kids who's cash flow is dependent on an allowance that they may or may not get, or on parents being willing to shell out the nearly five bucks an issue for them to read comics in the first place. Or they could read them online, I suppose, but how many kids actually spend their online time by reading comics? Probably not many. Your point is moot.

Now, here are my thoughts on change and comics- I have been a fan of Marvel (officially) since 2001, and even before that, with the 90's cartoons and the occasional comic in high school, even back to the issues that my mom handed down to me as a kid. I like changes. For me, the BEST thing that ever happened to Spider-Man was the new spin on his origin that JMS created, and all the attendant problems and consequences that came with it. Ezekiel and the "Other" was an amazing plot-arc, that took more than a year to culminate, and also brought in some really awesome new villains and complications. Even Aunt May learning his secret was a change that I really loved, without being the "earth-shaking event" that they seem to do all too often now. So was his unmasking, for that matter. (And I really wish they hadn't ret-conned that- there was so much more they could do with it.) Oh yes, and he "died" at least twice in the midst of all that, which while not as shocking as it could have been, was still interesting while it lasted.

I also like other versions of his story, such as the one in 1602, Noir, and Marvel Fairy Tales. These were all different, interesting, and NEW at the time they were published. I also love the MU2, 2099, Marvel Zombies, and particularly Exiles, with all the alternate versions of various characters in that book. Change can be good. WHEN it's done for good reasons and in the interest of storytelling. This- isn't it. Neither is Miles, IMHO. Those are changes done purely for the sake of change itself, and it shows. Badly.

What's driving ME away isn't change- I had plenty of that with Bendis, JMS, Peter David, and Slott, though not all of those were good. What drives ME away is cheap gimmicks, shoddy characterization, and change for change's sake. Which is where they've been going for about the past 5-6 years. And it's depressing, because instead of telling GOOD stories that involve change, they just want to cater to a younger crowd and try to be "cool" to kids who barely even care about the characters they're writing about.

Ours is, sadly enough, the last generation that really had comics as a major form of entertainment, and thus, we are the ones who actually care about what they write for those characters. Younger generations will NOT care about the fifty+ years of history in the MU, nor who is wearing what costume, or what happens to a particular "version" of a character in which universe. If you think the kids of the current generation are going to have any concern over who Ms. Marvel or Spider-Man or anyone else is outside of the movies, then you're mistaken. They're more likely to care about the next Call of Duty release, the next Transformers movie, or the next Twitter feed from Beyoncé or whomever. That's the sad truth about comics today, and it's why I've mostly given up on them.

Side-note: Next time, instead of taking a condescending tone and saying "good riddance", try looking at things from a different point of view. Not everyone LIKES the current changes, and it's not because "grognard dinosaur resistant to change". It's because we CARE about QUALITY.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

The comic industry still caters to dinosaurs. The ones in charge.

Indeed. Can't wait for some of those dinosaurs to go extinct, or at least migrate to somewhere far from the comics world. They're not doing anyone any favors.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Spoiler:

Oh that's real cute- comparing me to a couple of psycho shooters who HAPPEN to be in my state, just because I make ONE comment about a writer's ability. Real classy- do yourself a favor, and take your own advice about being better than that.

As for age and catering to "dinosaurs"- last I checked, we're in the age demographic most likely to have the money to buy comics, not kids who's cash flow is dependent on an allowance that they may or may not get, or on parents being willing to shell out the nearly five bucks an issue for them to read comics in the first place. Or they could read them online, I suppose, but how many kids actually spend their online time by reading comics? Probably not many. Your point is moot.

Now, here are my thoughts on change and comics- I have been a fan of Marvel (officially) since 2001, and even before that, with the 90's cartoons and the occasional comic in high school, even back to the issues that my mom handed down to me as a kid. I like changes. For me, the BEST thing that ever happened to Spider-Man was the new spin on his origin that JMS created, and all the attendant problems and consequences that came with it. Ezekiel and the "Other" was an amazing plot-arc, that took more than a year to culminate, and also brought in some really awesome new villains and complications. Even Aunt May learning his secret was a change that I really loved, without being the "earth-shaking event" that they seem to do all too often now. So was his unmasking, for that matter. (And I really wish they hadn't ret-conned that- there was so much more they could do with it.) Oh yes, and he "died" at least twice in the midst of all that, which while not as shocking as it could have been, was still interesting while it lasted.

I also like other versions of his story, such as the one in 1602, Noir, and Marvel Fairy Tales. These were all different, interesting, and NEW at the time they were published. I also love the MU2, 2099, Marvel Zombies, and particularly Exiles, with all the alternate versions of various characters in that book.

Change can be good. WHEN it's done for good reasons and in the interest of storytelling. This- isn't it. Neither is Miles, IMHO. Those are changes done purely for the sake of change itself, and it shows. Badly.

What's driving ME away isn't change- I had plenty of that with Bendis, JMS, Peter David, and Slott, though not all of those were good. What drives ME away is cheap gimmicks, shoddy characterization, and change for change's sake. Which is where they've been going for about the past 5-6 years. And it's depressing, because instead of telling GOOD stories that involve change, they just want to cater to a younger crowd and try to be "cool" to kids who barely even care about the characters they're writing about.

MsMarvelDuckie, not to divert the thread too much, but what comics (if any) do you currently read? Because it does seem like I became interested in comics far too late to read any of the GOOD ones (at least by the big two, with a few exceptions)...

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Currently, I've been sticking to the TMNT TPB's, and slowly building my collection of Usagi. I also checked out The Walking Dead from my library, but they only have one volume of that, so that's not a "regular" one for me. And I recently bought the Guardians of the Galaxy Cosmic Avengers stand-alone TPB, Spider-Man Big Time TPB, and the Captain America Winter Soldier TPB, but that's about it as far as "current" comic purchases or reads. I have neither the money nor the access to buy them regularly anymore like I did up until about four years ago. Strangely enough, the OMIT and Spider-Island arcs were the LAST ones I actually bought for ASM, and now I limit my comic reading to what I can pick up on FCBD. Since I've been so disappointed in Marvel anyway ever since the OMIT arc (that really just killed Spidey for me) I just save up every few months or so and get one or two of the TMNT volumes. Currently, I'm up to vol. 10, which should tell you how often I can afford them. Funny how health issues of a spouse can take precedence over reading comics.

I USED to read FF, ASM, New Avengers, Deadpool, Daredevil, Red Sonya, Zorro, Lone Ranger, Uncanny X-Men, X-Factor, R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf Saga adaptation, and occasionally Hellboy, Captain America or Iron Man, if they caught my eye.

[ZariusTwo]

So I just read Secret Wars#1

Spoiler:

Not much happens that we were'nt already clued in about thanks to advance solits and interviews. There's a bit of a fight. 616 Manhattan becomes a life raft. The incursions begin and both the 616 and Ultimate Universes are destroyed. The only "surprising" things were the deaths of 616 Black Widow and Sue, Valiera, and Franklyn Richards. However, each death was handled in that typical "no body" rule that is frequent whenever a writer offs a character,, so chances are they're gonna be fine later. Yawn.

And this is what they lumber us with for most of the year?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Why am I not surprised? Sounds like business as usual, and yet ANOTHER WSE. (World-shaking Event)

[CyberCubed]

Between DC's New 52, Marvel rebooting and killing off its main two universes, and Star Wars rebooting with the expanded universe being considered non-canon....all 3 of the longest running comic book continuities have been restarted very recently.

Technically you can say the same for TMNT since IDW is also a reboot and has nothing to do with Mirage. I'm just glad with TMNT they never have to "erase" a different universe, they just start up a new continuity and go from there.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well, Turtles Forever kind of set the bar for that, by claiming all the others are spun off of the "Prime" universe of Mirage, so they can all be traced back to it somehow. Kind of like how the alternate timelines in Back to the Future came from the one Marty remembered.

[CyberCubed]

I never understood why DC and Marvel have to "destroy a universe" when they want a reboot. Can't they just make a new series with no ties to the previous, instead of doing this, "The whole universe explodes with every hero jumping into space!" thing they always do?

[sdp]

I guess fans wouldn't want to check out the new universe? All these reboots are just silly, and wasn't New 52 a disaster? What made Marvel think this was a good idea? The whole merging of universes is downright stupid and confusing. Honestly DC probably did it best when they established Earth-2 allowing fans to read stories of an "older" version of their heroes without messing up the "new" Earth 1 timeline but it all went to heck after that. Fans want to see later years of Marvel, there is no mystery on why future "what if" storylines are always the most interesting There should be two continuities, one where time does happen, even if it's slowly and we eventually see our heroes we love like Bruce/Peter Parker etc die of old age and replaced by new generations and another where comicbook time happens and they never age, the best of both worlds, no reboots necessary, the companies have their comics with the "iconic" characters while still advancing the story and keeping new fans intrigued.

This isn't the past when people couldn't really get older issues of comics outside comic book stores and paying outrageous prices. TPB and other collections are widely available and you can now buy them digitally or Netflix like services where you can read all you want for a monthly fee, not to mention wikipedia and countless of youtube videos and websites describing the history of characters, people are not going to be lost by decades of continuity. It's more difficult to read about all the retcons that have been made to the universes in all the past decades, no one even remembers what is canon anymore or if the retcons are still true or have also been retconned. Comics have been a dying industry for decades and none of their reboots have worked, and now the industry has a final chance of being relevant again thanks to tablets and digital comics and they're making the same mistakes of rebooting things in convoluted ways instead of making it a bit easier for the general audience. I mean I'm a nerd and casual comic fan and I'm ****ing lost with what's happening, imagine how the general audience feels about trying to get into comic books.

[ZariusTwo]

Exactly. The fact DC are now planning to start publishing comics without a cohesive narrative in the continuity just hits home the fact they think most of their current fans can't keep up with their revisions to history, and now they're basically admitting they have no need to so long as they get a fun story out of it. Marvel admitted to no longer caring about keeping things all straight on Twitter a couple of years back too. They're not in it for the diligent long-term reader, and they are projecting a "the casual crowd are fickle" image onto their new customers which I feel is a condescending and insulting approach.

[Leo656]

You and me both, brotherrrrrr.

[sdp]

See, I don't even know with what's going on anymore with DC nor Marvel. So DC is just publishing stories were you only need to know the basic information of characters? Kind of everything in continuity but not really since they won't be bogged down by decades of continuity?

That's actually the best approach they can do now, I'm sure hardcore comic fans will be pissed but for casual readers this is for the best, this doesn't mean there won't be any character progression either or the stories will be boring and there won't be any big stakes, but after that story arc ends it doesn't necessarily have to affect the next 20 years of stories.

[ZariusTwo]

There will be a continuity, but stories won't be neccersarily told in the right reading order.

For example, Superman will have his identity publicly outed and resrot to wearing a t-shirt and jeans in his book, and Bruce Wayne will be missing presumed dead in his own book, replaced by Jim Gordan, but in other titles Supes could, say, still flying about in his New 52 costume and Bruce's Batman will be a team member in Justice Leauge.

[Leo656]

The biggest problem with that approach, is that each and every story kind of asks you to pretend every other story doesn't matter or isn't AS important as the one happening presently. "No, no, there's no continuity anymore, so those other guys' stories? That's all just jibber-jabber. This one you're reading right NOW, though... This One, is Legit, and it's important. Honest."

Makes it hard to invest in ANY story when you know that nothing about it will "count" in the very near future. Which is just a further extension of "too many retcons" in the first place. I mean, they kind of already did the "no-strings, no-continuity" deal in the late-90s through early 2000s, and it was the sh*ts. Consequently, as far as what little amount of stuff IS still considered "canon", almost none of it came from 1998-2002. It actually wasn't until they started making a big deal out of continuity again, in the build-up to Infinite Crisis, that the books finally got decent and people actually started reading them again.

There is zero business anywhere that makes MORE money by disregarding its longtime customer base and trying to hook a whole new one. It simply does not happen. THe problem with comics is, technology is killing print across the board, and so they're all getting desperate, looking for the magic trick to slow the bleeding. This minute, they think throwing continuity out the window is the quick fix. Three or four years from now, don't be surprised if they think doing a 180 is the way to go, and suddenly every book will be full of 70s flashbacks like it was ten years ago. Their business is definitely floundering, but it's not because of stories, it's because print is dead and comics cost way too much. But they can't admit that, it'd ruin everything... for them. So, they just keep looking for the gimmick to make comics sell again. Can't happen. So we're just going to keep getting these "let's see what catches on Today" tactics until they're forced to admit that the business model they've built for themselves is not sustainable any longer, and that giving older fans the screws isn't going to suddenly make kids or teens read comics. It's a lot more complicated than they're willing to admit.

[CyberCubed]

This is why I said comics should be written like TV shows. TV shows go on a set number of seasons and then get canceled. And then when they want to do a new show, they restart continuity from square one and start all over with a different take.

I think comic continuities should last about 10 years, and then reboot everything with no ties to the previous and go in a different direction, and so on and so forth every 10 years. Outside of the hardcore fans, most people don't even keep up with comics after a decade anyway.