New Ciro Nieli podcast... the future of Nick TMNT & more!

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

1. yuffie, again im not against mona, but yes rahzar has generally been a male. so unless changing him to female adds to they story, then why do it?

2. cafe, you need to quit judging personal character from this. i can make assumptions about you based off the way you post, but it doesnt get anywhere in this post, is rude, immature, and unecessary. reply to posts with a reason other than insult.

3. it really shouldnt matter. if everyone besides the main characters was female and it worked, i could care less. what im saying is the main characters than occur through all incarnations are generally male. no its not "a show about dudes". but the story is based around mostly male characters. and unless we change a turtle or 2 and shredder into females, it will have mostly male characters. and if girls enjoy the story, it should not matter to them, the number of females in the show.

For a person who doesn't care you sure argue a lot why Rahzar can't be a girl. Rahzar tried to be the Bebop and Rocksteady of the live action movie, but he and Tokka never really pulled it off.

I don't see the difference, really, if they'd turn into female characters. Fans would be a lot outraged making Bebop and Rocksteady women IMHO.

I'm not gonna reply to you anymore, ElectricN, I feel you just don't take the problem seriously.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Karai's whole identity now is as a pawn. She doesn't know she's a pawn, but that's the whole reason Shredder took her from Yoshi: as weapon of revenge.
He quite literally objectified her.

I'm not saying that's inherently bad, because narratively it's interesting. It gives her a space to grow and change as a character. I'm always interested in characters gaining additional dimension.

But let's not forget that even Ciro said: Good, Evil. Enough.
And that's not enough, it's lazy.

Half the foot soldiers are female? Show, don't tell. That's the first rule of storytelling.

Turtles has always had a male dominated cast, that is true. But just because that's how it used to be doesn't mean that that's how it has to be now. The only reason not to add more female characters, while tacking on more male characters, is the belief that "too many female characters is bad somehow."

Why?

no her whole identity is not a pawn. she was a pawn to shredder. she is a daughter to splinter.

foot soldiers. fair enough its not shown. but also isnt fact. they could be. theres no definite fact they are 100% male.

and no, the belief isnt that it is bad. the belief is it is not necessary to tell the story of the 4 mutant turtles.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

... We shouldn't have "girl shows" and we shouldn't have "boy shows." We should have kid shows. Cartoons should be for everyone.

Totally agree! Reminds me of a story. My niece, a few years older and much more "girly," in a sense, than my tomboy-ish daughter, once made fun of my little angel for playing with boys toys. I said to her, (and very proud of myself I might add) "there are no such things as 'boys toys' and 'girls toys!' Anyone can play with anything they want." Cut to a few years later and said niece is THE biggest TMNT fan on the planet. Needless to say, so is my little girl.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Can I ask a question?
Are you a white male between the ages of 13 and 35?

Nope! Try again.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I join you in confusion. If race/gender/orientation/mutation doesn't matter at all, then why does the show have to skew male at all? It seems to me that everyone cares. From the people saying those of us who'd like to see more representation are "making something out of nothing" to those who profess that they "have always seen this as a story about dudes."

It doesn't. But why can't it?

Originally Posted by Heather Breckel

I'm obviously not male, but I imagine no guys really make a big deal of it because the creators haven't said anything along the lines of "no more guy characters".

And to answer demonsweat's question, no, Ciro should not be demonized for what he said. Criticism is totally fine and it's a way to help every artist grow. But saying the guy should lose his job or is an evil misogynist over this is way out of line and is far more harmful than helpful. People go way too extreme on the internet sometimes.

I think that "there needs to be more female representation in popular media" is a totally valid and important criticism that needs addressed in the industry period. But harassing the guy through tumblr and internet petitions isn't the best way to go about it.

Yup. :knucks:

[Electric]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

For a person who doesn't care you sure argue a lot why Rahzar can't be a girl. Rahzar tried to be the Bebop and Rocksteady of the live action movie, but he and Tokka never really pulled it off.

I don't see the difference, really, if they'd turn into female characters. Fans would be a lot outraged making Bebop and Rocksteady women IMHO.

I'm not gonna reply to you anymore, ElectricN, I feel you just don't take the problem seriously.

my whole idea is: if it is not necessary, why do it?

if you dont want to reply, thats okay. because in my opinion, youre defending a problem that isnt really a problem in the first place.

should both genders have representation, yes. is it always going to be equal? no. but that shoudnt detract any enjoyment from a show, no matter which way it swings.

[Avatar Yuffie]

It's scary people insists the problem isn't a problem. It really is.

[Electric]

its upsetting people cant enjoy something thats been great the way it is simply because they believe it encompasses a problem in society, when its really not reflecting it at all

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Totally agree! Reminds me of a story. My niece, a few years older and much more "girly," in a sense, than my tomboy-ish daughter, once made fun of my little angel for playing with boys toys. I said to her, (and very proud of myself I might add) "there are no such things as 'boys toys' and 'girls toys!' Anyone can play with anything they want." Cut to a few years later and said niece is THE biggest TMNT fan on the planet. Needless to say, so is my little girl.

HA! I had a similar conversation with an 8 year old this one time. She asked me what toys I played with when I was a kid, and I told her one of my favorite cartoons was Turtles.

"Those're for boys."
To which I responded: Toys are for whomever wants to play with them.

She gave me a dubious look. Later in the evening, at dinner, her mother took me aside and said, "We didn't teach her that. Just so you know. Kids are just really conservative when it comes to the concept of gender and gender roles."

I know, I replied.

Nope! Try again.

And you really don't think representation isn't important? Or did I merely read you wrong?

It doesn't. But why can't it?

There's nothing inherently wrong with a show reading in a way that could be aligned with the current cultural expression of "masculine." But I reject the idea that this means it's only for boys.

Originally Posted by ElectricN

its upsetting people cant enjoy something thats been great the way it is simply because they believe it encompasses a problem in society, when its really not reflecting it at all

I know those feels, yo.
It's equally upsetting when people deny that our popular culture reflects back on us our internalized beliefs even as it reinforces the status quo, for good or bad.

Girls aren't bad, but they shouldn't be on our cartoons for boys unless they serve a narrative purpose. Meaning...girls don't exist unless we need them too for some other reason. Though somehow...boys don't need a purpose, and can exist regardless.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Yeah, well, you go ahead and think like that.

Sorry it upsets you. But I don't.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by NinjaMan

I'm curious, to male Pony fans ask for more male characters in the cast since the show has 6 main female characters and other guest female characters?

at least the male ponies that do show up aren't just love interests and are interesting.


I loved TMNT as kid...I'm a girl. In fact you'd be surprised by how many girls do! my sister loved TMNT, my friend (thats a girl) loved TMNT....what am I saying....ALL MY FRIENDS THAT ARE GIRLS LOVED TMNT!!

representation matters SOO much...if more girls were put in boys shows even MORE girls would watch it. but don't just put any girls in the show....girls with some actual depth and personality! (like the boys)

like Steven Universe or Adventure time!! IT CAN BE DONE!! it has been done.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I know those feels, yo.
It's equally upsetting when people deny that our popular culture reflects back on us our internalized beliefs even as it reinforces the status quo, for good or bad.

Girls aren't bad, but they shouldn't be on our cartoons for boys unless they serve a narrative purpose. Meaning...girls don't exist unless we need them too for some other reason. Though somehow...boys don't need a purpose, and can exist regardless.

i mean, ive tried to explain it countless times. tmnt shouldnt be just a boys show. it should be for anyone. but with that, it also shouldnt matter the boy to girl ratio.

the show happens to have a majority male audience. thats not the shows fault. thats just how it is.

ive told you, i agree that they couldve include some female mutants as fillers instead of some of the male fillers. but they didnt. and in my opinion, that shouldnt matter. so no, girls can just exist, as can boys. the whole "serve a narrative purpose" is referring to gender bending male characters. theres no necessity to do so, so why do it.

once again, i seem to have to repeat myself, i am not against adding female characters, and encourage them to do so. but saying that girls shouldnt have to "settle" for this and that ciro saying there isnt any more females in season 2 is awful, is wrong. if girls are settling for a show, then they really dont like the show, the show is what it is. i would hope male and female alike could enjoy the show of tmnt. and if the show has only included new male characters for this season, oh well,theyre using this time to develop the 2 mosst important female characters. there are more seasons for them to introduce any number of the great female characters they could.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

HA! I had a similar conversation with an 8 year old this one time. She asked me what toys I played with when I was a kid, and I told her one of my favorite cartoons was Turtles.

"Those're for boys."
To which I responded: Toys are for whomever wants to play with them.

She gave me a dubious look. Later in the evening, at dinner, her mother took me aside and said, "We didn't teach her that. Just so you know. Kids are just really conservative when it comes to the concept of gender and gender roles."

I know, I replied.

They are, but a lot of that comes from their peers too, I think, especially with the little ones. My girl loves Leo, she's a leader at heart (and stubborn as hell, heh). And so I try to encourage that - lead others, I tell her. Be that beacon, teach the other kids to do what's right. See, toons like this make a big difference to kids, we tend to forget that. She's gonna take this on and learn from it, just like I did with the old show. And coming back around to the topic - I don't think male or female matters as much. The core values are heroism and family, and a good sense of humor... all the main things we love about it definitely come through to the kids. Gender equality... eh, it'll get there. It's a slow climb, but rush it and you'll only work against it, IMO.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

And you really don't think representation isn't important? Or did I merely read you wrong?

SO wrong. C'mon, try me again.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

There's nothing inherently wrong with a show reading in a way that could be aligned with the current cultural expression of "masculine." But I reject the idea that this means it's only for boys.

Nobody here is saying (nor did Ciro, IIRC) that this show is just for boys. Just because something features a lot of boys doesn't mean it's for boys.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

They are, but a lot of that comes from their peers too, I think, especially with the little ones. My girl loves Leo, she's a leader at heart (and stubborn as hell, heh). And so I try to encourage that - lead others, I tell her. Be that beacon, teach the other kids to do what's right. See, toons like this make a big difference to kids, we tend to forget that. She's gonna take this on and learn from it, just like I did with the old show. And coming back around to the topic - I don't think male or female matters as much. The core values are heroism and family, and a good sense of humor... all the main things we love about it definitely come through to the kids. Gender equality... eh, it'll get there. It's a slow climb, but rush it and you'll only work against it, IMO.



SO wrong. C'mon, try me again.



Nobody here is saying (nor did Ciro, IIRC) that this show is just for boys. Just because something features a lot of boys doesn't mean it's for boys.

i completely agree with all of this. and i dont know if you mind me bringing this up, but the fact that your daughter finds interest in leo, and that you discuss the point of the show, regardless of the characters gender, is what ive been (ineffectively) trying to say.

it shouldnt be a boys show. everyone should enjoy it. and people should be able to like and relate to characters regardless of gender.

so thanks

[Cure]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

girls can still find enjoyment out of it, just as boys can find enjoyment out of shows with mostly females.

This is exactly it. The retarded notion that people can only relate to or even look up to people exactly like them is dumb.

My friend's niece once wanted to be Batman for Halloween. Not Batgirl, not Batwoman or something, but BATMAN. And she was. She wasn't wrong for looking up to Batman.

The problem is the word representation. Not everyone is represented everywhere, that's just how it is. I went to High School in an all black high school in Jersey City. I don't think I was a racist for not looking for white, Asian, Native American or Alaskan people to hang out with. They just, you know, weren't around. I also hung out with mostly guys. So I guess I'm sexist...?

If people really are all about equality, anyone should be able to be a role model to anyone, regardless of gender, ethnicity, or whatever.

And before someone asks, no I'm not a white male. I don't need people to look like me in sh*t I watch.

[SpiderFly]

So i'm a new fan here who has heard the podcast and has been taking issue with Ciro's comments about female characters.

A lot of people are saying, "Well, it's a boy's show. What did you expect? It's about four BROTHERs and their FATHER. It's specifically aimed at BOYS."

-So little girls can relate to boy characters but the opposite cannot be true?
-Girls do watch this show and do deserve characters that reach out to them as well
-BOYS deserve strongly written female characters just as much as girls do! Kids are sponges. Little boys are going to watching this and (though unrealistically) draw behavior and mindsets from these characters. Which leads to my main issue with the series and its lack of female representation.

FOCUS on the turtles and Splinter but populate your supporting cast with diverse characters. Could one of the cops in "Mutagen Man Unleashed" have been female? Could the sewer guy being attacked by leatherhead or eating popcorn been female? News Anchor? Foot ninja? Henchman? Mutant?

People are saying that if gender doesn't really matter with characters then why are others so sensitive about characters keeping their previous male gender? But, male characters don't have the widespread problem of being underrepresented. And absence IS noticeable. Not seeing female characters in different roles is like saying females are denied those roles. Or, that only males can have those roles. The only main females on this show are love interests ( not just love interests, but still).
What is that saying? What is that saying to boys? Having more female characters, characters that aren't love interests for example, allows the female characters you do have to not have the burden of being the sole representation for the female gender. She doesn't have to be a perfect Amazon woman in order to make a better presentation of the opposite sex to young boys.(which is the problem I think Ciro was referring to when he mentioned "over-powered" female characters) That's my dream. But . . .

There are two things running against this though:

1. Budget. They don't have the money to really build a lot of character models.

2. Ciro doesn't have a lot of faith in himself when it comes to female characters. He has written good ones in the past but I can really see him struggle with April's characterization in the show. It's wrong of him to completely avoid the issue though. As said, females are roughly 50% of the population. It sounds kind of ridiculous that his solution to his flaw as a writer is to avoid opportunities to write more of them. Are we really that "alien" that you can write turtlemen, ratmen, aliens, etc. but you can't write us? And if he is still unwilling, he has his staff. Someone, anyone, among the crew working on this can't put two good cents in?

Despite all this, i think this show still has the chance to get on the ball with its female characters. I do enjoy this show. I really do enjoy this show, but I'm not going to ignore its flaws. I'm going to talk about them. Talking and discussion is what can really change things.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

i completely agree with all of this. and i dont know if you mind me bringing this up, but the fact that your daughter finds interest in leo, and that you discuss the point of the show, regardless of the characters gender, is what ive been trying to say.

it shouldnt be a boys show. everyone should enjoy it. and people should be able to like and relate to characters regardless of gender.

so thanks

No, I don't mind, that's awesome! I mean, I do agree that I would like to see more good female role models, especially now that I have a little girl. Media is lacking, but not totally bereft. I just don't think the answer is to make everything fit a certain mold, but to make more variety. I want to encourage my daughter to get out there and fill that void, rather than trying to alter other people's works of art.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by SpiderFly

Spoiler:

So i'm a new fan here who has heard the podcast and has been taking issue with Ciro's comments about female characters.

A lot of people are saying, "Well, it's a boy's show. What did you expect? It's about four BROTHERs and their FATHER. It's specifically aimed at BOYS."

-So little girls can relate to boy characters but the opposite cannot be true?
-Girls do watch this show and do deserve characters that reach out to them as well
-BOYS deserve strongly written female characters just as much as girls do! Kids are sponges. Little boys are going to watching this and (though unrealistically) draw behavior and mindsets from these characters. Which leads to my main issue with the series and its lack of female representation.

FOCUS on the turtles and Splinter but populate your supporting cast with diverse characters. Could one of the cops in "Mutagen Man Unleashed" have been female? Could the sewer guy being attacked by leatherhead or eating popcorn been female? News Anchor? Foot ninja? Henchman? Mutant?

People are saying that if gender doesn't really matter with characters then why are others so sensitive about characters keeping their previous male gender? But, male characters don't have the widespread problem of being underrepresented. And absence IS noticeable. Not seeing female characters in different roles is like saying females are denied those roles. Or, that only males can have those roles. The only main females on this show are love interests ( not just love interests, but still).
What is that saying? What is that saying to boys? Having more female characters, characters that aren't love interests for example, allows the female characters you do have to not have the burden of being the sole representation for the female gender. She doesn't have to be a perfect Amazon woman in order to make a better presentation of the opposite sex to young boys.(which is the problem I think Ciro was referring to when he mentioned "over-powered" female characters) That's my dream. But . . .

There are two things running against this though:

1. Budget. They don't have the money to really build a lot of character models.

2. Ciro doesn't have a lot of faith in himself when it comes to female characters. He has written good ones in the past but I can really see him struggle with April's characterization in the show. It's wrong of him to completely avoid the issue though. As said, females are roughly 50% of the population. It sounds kind of ridiculous that his solution to his flaw as a writer is to avoid opportunities to write more of them. Are we really that "alien" that you can write turtlemen, ratmen, aliens, etc. but you can't write us? And if he is still unwilling, he has his staff. Someone, anyone, among the crew working on this can't put two good cents in?

Despite all this, i think this show still has the chance to get on the ball with its female characters. I do enjoy this show. I really do enjoy this show, but I'm not going to ignore its flaws. I'm going to talk about them. Talking and discussion is what can really change things.

thank you!

[Electric]

Originally Posted by Cure

This is exactly it. The retarded notion that people can only relate to or even look up to people exactly like them is dumb.

My friend's niece once wanted to be Batman for Halloween. Not Batgirl, not Batwoman or something, but BATMAN. And she was. She wasn't wrong for looking up to Batman.

The problem is the word representation. Not everyone is represented everywhere, that's just how it is. I went to High School in an all black high school in Jersey City. I don't think I was a racist for not looking for white, Asian, Native American or Alaskan people to hang out with. They just, you know, weren't around. I also hung out with mostly guys. So I guess I'm sexist...?

If people really are all about equality, anyone should be able to be a role model to anyone, regardless of gender, ethnicity, or whatever.

And before someone asks, no I'm not a white male. I don't need people to look like me in sh*t I watch.

Yep. Exactly. People keep saying they need more females so the girls can relate to and enjoy the show. And that right now girls can only relate to "good or evil". Not true, girls can relate to anyone regardless. Leadership, anger, intelligence, fun loving, wisdom, loyalty, jealousy, confidence. They're all there for anyone, not just the gender that each respective character shows.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by SpiderFly

So i'm a new fan here who has heard the podcast and has been taking issue with Ciro's comments about female characters.

A lot of people are saying, "Well, it's a boy's show. What did you expect? It's about four BROTHERs and their FATHER. It's specifically aimed at BOYS."

-So little girls can relate to boy characters but the opposite cannot be true?
-Girls do watch this show and do deserve characters that reach out to them as well
-BOYS deserve strongly written female characters just as much as girls do! Kids are sponges. Little boys are going to watching this and (though unrealistically) draw behavior and mindsets from these characters. Which leads to my main issue with the series and its lack of female representation.

FOCUS on the turtles and Splinter but populate your supporting cast with diverse characters. Could one of the cops in "Mutagen Man Unleashed" have been female? Could the sewer guy being attacked by leatherhead or eating popcorn been female? News Anchor? Foot ninja? Henchman? Mutant?

People are saying that if gender doesn't really matter with characters then why are others so sensitive about characters keeping their previous male gender? But, male characters don't have the widespread problem of being underrepresented. And absence IS noticeable. Not seeing female characters in different roles is like saying females are denied those roles. Or, that only males can have those roles. The only main females on this show are love interests ( not just love interests, but still).
What is that saying? What is that saying to boys? Having more female characters, characters that aren't love interests for example, allows the female characters you do have to not have the burden of being the sole representation for the female gender. She doesn't have to be a perfect Amazon woman in order to make a better presentation of the opposite sex to young boys.(which is the problem I think Ciro was referring to when he mentioned "over-powered" female characters) That's my dream. But . . .

There are two things running against this though:

1. Budget. They don't have the money to really build a lot of character models.

2. Ciro doesn't have a lot of faith in himself when it comes to female characters. He has written good ones in the past but I can really see him struggle with April's characterization in the show. It's wrong of him to completely avoid the issue though. As said, females are roughly 50% of the population. It sounds kind of ridiculous that his solution to his flaw as a writer is to avoid opportunities to write more of them. Are we really that "alien" that you can write turtlemen, ratmen, aliens, etc. but you can't write us? And if he is still unwilling, he has his staff. Someone, anyone, among the crew working on this can't put two good cents in?

Despite all this, i think this show still has the chance to get on the ball with its female characters. I do enjoy this show. I really do enjoy this show, but I'm not going to ignore its flaws. I'm going to talk about them. Talking and discussion is what can really change things.

I really don't mind the lack of female footsoldiers because 1) they're robots now and 2) it's cgi I can understand they won't spend budget on individual mooks. It's also why I didn't complain about the kraang white man in suit robots.

Also good points! Thanks.

Oh, and one good girl archetype and one bad girl archetype =/= maxed girls, for those who don't get it up to now.

[CyberCubed]

Haha I found the tumblr link. LOL at the arguments.

[Shark_Blade]

^Share the link. I want to see the chaos.