New Ciro Nieli podcast... the future of Nick TMNT & more!

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

I'm just kinda bummed because the writing and voice acting is sooo good. The IDW comic has better diversity and plots but the writing is sooo bland... Guess you really can't have your cake and eat it too.

IDW's problem is their Turtles are bland, everyone else is OK.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

Most of my point though, was not that Ciro's not doing something I personally want. It's that this problem directly relates to creativity too. When I see a stereotypical character, I don't just think, "this is so wrong." I probably will, but I'm also thinking, "this is so boring." Girl in distress? Again? Tough street-smarts black guy? Meh... Ciro and the whole crew will write the stories they want, which have been overall, super fun. And they have every right to. I'm just saying the stories would be even better and interesting with a little more diversity. And there's obviously a point where you do think about, "ok, how's this character going to look? what's his/her background?" How much more diversity? Who knows. 51% male and 49% male, you most likely won't hear anything from me. Even 60/40. But 2 female characters out of hundreds? I don't think that's necessarily a nitpick just because others may not care.

EDIT: I think Bishop is a pretty interesting character too that just fits so naturally into the TMNT universe. He could've been a female too...

Nothing wrong with that. You'll find opinions all across this section of the forum having to do with artistic or creative choices. And we're going differ in our opinions (I think Xever is incredibly unique, for instance). I certainly would not mind seeing more females in the show myself. The problem lies, I believe, when we start implying that the show is not up to some sort of societal standard, implying sexism or misrepresentation of women. That's accusing the creators of Keeping Women Down, and that's offensive to call someone out on that, whether you think they intend it or not. That kind of thing is going way too far in my book.

Ciro seems like a stand-up guy, he's handling it with class, but the guy and his team are under the constant scrutiny of the fans. Nobody likes to admit it, but criticism hurts. It doesn't matter who you are. I'm sorry to see a small section of the fandom behave so badly, because it really doesn't represent the majority of us.

[turtletoons81]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Wait; hundreds? I'm reasonably sure there aren't hundreds of characters in this show. I don't see why there need to be, either. The given directive, as it looks to be, is that they adapt characters who were already in the license before. This means April and Karai are obvious; such people as Irma and Renet are less obvious, but possible. Still, there's no denying that most of these past characters are male. Let's remember that. The show isn't going out of its way to ostracize females, but fanservice to the base almost necessitates many characters being male. If he actually turned Bebop and Rocksteady female, that would be stupid.

honestly since some people on tumblr called ciro a sexist douche yes i'm not kidding he might have gone his way to please those people by making rocksteady and bebop into female's.....sigh...

[Martin]

Originally Posted by turtletoons81

honestly since some people on tumblr called ciro a sexist douche yes i'm not kidding he might have gone his way to please those people by making rocksteady and bebop into female's.....sigh...

Nah, it was just good old sarcasm. Though if he really did that'd be hilarious.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Wait; hundreds? I'm reasonably sure there aren't hundreds of characters in this show. I don't see why there need to be, either. The given directive, as it looks to be, is that they adapt characters who were already in the license before. This means April and Karai are obvious; such people as Irma and Renet are less obvious, but possible. Still, there's no denying that most of these past characters are male. Let's remember that. The show isn't going out of its way to ostracize females, but fanservice to the base almost necessitates many characters being male. If he actually turned Bebop and Rocksteady female, that would be stupid.

I was more referencing Ciro saying something about having "hundreds" of characters in mind to put into the show. I'm sure if you even stack it up against the characters on the show so far (supporting, background, etc) it would be staggering. But you have a totally valid point about fanservice. However, it is still besides the point that there are more than enough easy opportunities to incorporate women. Random Purple Dragon members? I actually liked that they had an Asian guy in it. An easy example of how there was no "reason" for him to be Asian and it wasn't "shoehorned." Yet it makes the world a little bigger.

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Nothing wrong with that. You'll find opinions all across this section of the forum having to do with artistic or creative choices. And we're going differ in our opinions (I think Xever is incredibly unique, for instance). I certainly would not mind seeing more females in the show myself. The problem lies, I believe, when we start implying that the show is not up to some sort of societal standard, implying sexism or misrepresentation of women. That's accusing the creators of Keeping Women Down, and that's offensive to call someone out on that, whether you think they intend it or not. That kind of thing is going way too far in my book.

Ciro seems like a stand-up guy, he's handling it with class, but the guy and his team are under the constant scrutiny of the fans. Nobody likes to admit it, but criticism hurts. It doesn't matter who you are. I'm sorry to see a small section of the fandom behave so badly, because it really doesn't represent the majority of us.

I appreciate the civil replies. As far as the accusations and implications, they certainly are lofty and sensitive in nature. In the big picture, is TMNT a main source of "keeping women down"? Nah, I don't think anyone is saying that or even implying that. But it's a part of the kind of thinking that is and I hate to see it that in TMNT no matter how small. So yeah, in the quest for equality, I wouldn't start here. But in a simple expression of disappointment about something I care about which is TMNT, a TMNT forum seems appropriate. Calling out something that can and should be better is something I would hope people would do for me, ideally in a civil non-internety way. I still am struggling with the appropriate way to respond if a friend makes a sexist or racist joke. They are good people, but they could stand to be better when it comes to some things. No one wants to feel like a racist or sexist, but the best way to not be? Be willing to look at yourself and root it out. The best way to address to friends? I have no idea beyond earnestly and reasonably bringing it up. And that's the thing about the example. We're all friends. We're all fans. At the heart of it, this is about making things better. Ciro is an amazing contributor to the heart of TMNT but he can be even better if he looked at female characters a little more progressively. Not going too far when I put that way, I don't think. I think the arguments being made are reasonable and important on a creative and social level.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Martin

Nah, it was just good old sarcasm. Though if he really did that'd be hilarious.

Someone should art that and send it to him.

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

I appreciate the civil replies. As far as the accusations and implications, they certainly are lofty and sensitive in nature. In the big picture, is TMNT a main source of "keeping women down"? Nah, I don't think anyone is saying that or even implying that. But it's a part of the kind of thinking that is and I hate to see that because I love TMNT, as we all do. So yeah, in the quest for equality, I wouldn't start here. But in a simple expression of disappointment about something I care about which is TMNT, a TMNT forum seems appropriate. Calling out something that can and should be better is something I would hope people would do for me, ideally in a civil non-internety way. I still am struggling with the appropriate way to respond if a friend makes a sexist or racist joke. They are good people, but they could stand to be better when it comes to some things. No one wants to feel like a racist or sexist, but the best way to not be? Be willing to look at yourself and root it out. The best way to address to friends? I have no idea beyond earnestly and reasonably bringing it up. And that's the thing about the example. We're all friends. We're all fans. At the heart of it, this is about making things better. Ciro is an amazing contributor to the heart of TMNT but he can be even better if he looked at female characters a little more progressively. Not going too far when I put that way, I don't think.

Eh, there's a few. Maybe not a "main" source, but a "contributing factor," which is bad enough, IMO. Sounded like Ciro got a bunch of hate mail too, which is unfortunate.

But yeah, I agree. Totally nothing wrong with wanting more. It's all in how you present it, I guess. No matter the topic, civil discussion is always good, whether it's between fans or fans and creators. I'd like to see other TMNT fans be a little more respectful in their approach, in the future. When sh*t like this blows up, it's embarrassing to the fandom (not to mention rational feminists) as a whole.

[Papenbrook]

I personally feel sorry for Ciro. I know he isn't a perfect person, but does he really deserve death threats and a negative petition, just because he stated ONE thing for probably a good reason? Seriously? My condolences go to him. I am deeply sorry.

[chrisdude]

What the feezy?!

Did the Shellshocked podcast stop using iTunes? I intended to follow the show, but I didn't know they put out an episode 3, much less 6...

[miru]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

It's because while people do want more female characters in the show, there's nothing wrong with the cast being mostly male in a show like this.

It's tokenism. There aren't any gay people on Nick's TMNT (at least that we know), so is that homophobic too?

Nor any Native American characters.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

I gotta disagree with that. It's great that there are shows with strong female characters, there should be. But why should every show fit a specific model? And why only women? Does Adventure Time accurately represent Asian people? Does Steven Universe have characters of different sexual orientations? What's the ratio of cats to dogs in Airbender, will my cat be offended watching with me?

Everyone wants to be represented. But that's not possible to do in every work of art. Over PC-ification stifles creativity. Let the work stand on it's own. I never understood how someone's enjoyment of something could be based solely on whether or not they feel personally, accurately portrayed within it.

If you have a story to tell, then go out and tell it. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Rebecca Sugar is a good example. She worked hard to get where she is, to do the show she wanted to do. Let that inspire other women to do the same. I never liked this, "we shouldn't have to!" thing. You wanna change the world, sister, then get off your butt and do it. Crying sexism at every turn is not the way towards progress.

Ok, Adventure Time only has one human main character, the story made it clear so it's ok there "won't be asian/other race representation".

However, the show does have a female rainicorn and she speaks Korean. She's Jake's wife, but she's not burdened with a "just love interest" criticism because Adventure Time had other female characters who were not. Finn may have a crush on two of them, but fans can point out Marceline who didn't serve as a love interest, has good episode arcs, and interaction with the Ice King not requiring to be his girlfriend. And then there's the Fionna and Cake episodes.

AT is way leagues better than tmnt 2k12 and any recent cartoons really.

[BubblyShell22]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Nothing wrong with that. You'll find opinions all across this section of the forum having to do with artistic or creative choices. And we're going differ in our opinions (I think Xever is incredibly unique, for instance). I certainly would not mind seeing more females in the show myself. The problem lies, I believe, when we start implying that the show is not up to some sort of societal standard, implying sexism or misrepresentation of women. That's accusing the creators of Keeping Women Down, and that's offensive to call someone out on that, whether you think they intend it or not. That kind of thing is going way too far in my book.

Ciro seems like a stand-up guy, he's handling it with class, but the guy and his team are under the constant scrutiny of the fans. Nobody likes to admit it, but criticism hurts. It doesn't matter who you are. I'm sorry to see a small section of the fandom behave so badly, because it really doesn't represent the majority of us.

Totally agree with this, Sweaty. Couldn't have said it better myself. And I agree about some criticism being hurtful sometimes. Yes, it's okay to find flaws in things, but to out and out tell the guy that he's purposefully doing this because he hates women is horrible.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Totally agree with this, Sweaty. Couldn't have said it better myself. And I agree about some criticism being hurtful sometimes. Yes, it's okay to find flaws in things, but to out and out tell the guy that he's purposefully doing this because he hates women is horrible.

Let's not forget the whole 'bathe in your unworthy blood' thing. That clearly didn't cross any lines.

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, that was definitely out of line as well.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by Martin

Let's not forget the whole 'bathe in your unworthy blood' thing. That clearly didn't cross any lines.

Yes, because that thing totally invalidates the criticism and we should cry for Ciro now.

That's like saying Cybercubed represents this forum that made him leave.

I don't want Ciro fired, and that getting him fired was overboard. But that didn't change the fact there is a problem and people should talk about it.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Ok, Adventure Time only has one human main character, the story made it clear so it's ok there "won't be asian/other race representation".

However, the show does have a female rainicorn and she speaks Korean. She's Jake's wife, but she's not burdened with a "just love interest" criticism because Adventure Time had other female characters who were not. Finn may have a crush on two of them, but fans can point out Marceline who didn't serve as a love interest, has good episode arcs, and heartfelt episodes with the Ice King not requiring to be his girlfriend.

AT is way leagues better than tmnt 2k12 and any recent cartoons really.

Marceline had an abusive boyfriend. Plus she's got massive daddy issues. Every princess on the show is chased by the Ice King, therefore making every female character a love interest (except LSP, who is nearly as man-hungry as OT Irma). The two main characters are both male. The two current "main" female characters on the show were in a love triangle with one of the show's title male characters. There isn't a single female on the show that hasn't been involved in some sort of romantic/relationship drama or story arc.

So why does AT get a pass? Because the number of females is greater? Or because you like that show more?

I love AT too. I haven't been catching it lately because - funny enough - the whole Flame Princess relationship bs bored me and I fell away from it. But I think the female characters are fantastic. The princess is a scientist, the Vampire Queen is creepy and cool. Susan Strong is... strong. Rainicorn plays music. And of course there's Fiona and Cake, something I wish had it's own show. But even in F&C, the cat paired with Monochome, Fiona with Bubblegum... Ice Queen was all hot for Bubblegum. I mean, the whole show is pretty much Adventure/Romance.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Martin

Let's not forget the whole 'bathe in your unworthy blood' thing. That clearly didn't cross any lines.

Some people need to be put back in their cages.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Yes, because that thing totally invalidates the criticism and we should cry for Ciro now.

That's like saying Cybercubed represents this forum that made him leave.

I don't want Ciro fired, and that getting him fired was overboard. But that didn't change the fact there is a problem and people should talk about it.

I wasn't saying that. It's just that sometimes one person's overreaction can destroy a valid argument. If this was handled in a more civilized manner, maybe another interview could have been arranged with Ciro, or maybe someone could have asked him to clarify his stance by sending him an email or something.

Too late for that now.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Marceline had an abusive boyfriend. Plus she's got massive daddy issues. Every princess on the show is chased by the Ice King, therefore making every female character a love interest (except LSP, who is nearly as man-hungry as OT Irma). The two main characters are both male. The two current "main" female characters on the show were in a love triangle with one of the show's title male characters. There isn't a single female on the show that hasn't been involved in some sort of romantic/relationship drama or story arc.

So why does AT get a pass? Because the number of females is greater? Or because you like that show more?

I love AT too. I haven't been catching it lately because - funny enough - the whole Flame Princess relationship bs bored me and I fell away from it. But I think the female characters are fantastic. The princess is a scientist, the Vampire Queen is creepy and cool. Susan Strong is... strong. Rainicorn plays music. And of course there's Fiona and Cake, something I wish had it's own show. But even in F&C, the cat paired with Monochome, Fiona with Bubblegum... Ice Queen was all hot for Bubblegum. I mean, the whole show is pretty much Adventure/Romance.

Having an abusive boyfriend in which she left him for good anyway =/= a legitimate love interest. Having a pervy old man stalker after a girl =/= she's love interest. Come on now.

AT has pass because both. I like it, it has more girls and they're not afraid to show it, and some of their stories are really really mature. It doesn't insult children's intelligence.

Admit it, there are times in 2K12 it feels... immature. Remember the Metalhead episode the three turtles never thought of attacking the Kraang attached to it's head? Yeah, I'm sure I can't be the only one who thought they're ridiculous.

[DarthEmpress]

I posted my criticism to Ciro's comments on tumblr because I needed a place to vent; what he said was offensive and wrong to me. I did not, however, plan on it receiving the amount of attention it has or to spiral into extremists wanting him to be fired. I assumed only a few of my friends would respond and that would be it. Still, I'm glad that it reached him despite the fact that he doesn't seem all that affected by it.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Having an abusive boyfriend in which she left him for good anyway =/= a legitimate love interest. Having a pervy old man stalker after a girl =/= she's love interest. Come on now.

Marcy and the boyfriend lived together and were an item for some time, IIRC. I'd call that legit. As for Ice King... seriously? Isn't the whole argument here on the fact that Don's pervy stalking of April makes her a love interest by default?

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

AT has pass because both. I like it, it has more girls and they're not afraid to show it, and some of their stories are really really mature. It doesn't insult children's intelligence.

Admit it, there are times in 2K12 it feels... immature. Remember the Metalhead episode the three turtles never thought of attacking the Kraang attached to it's head? Yeah, I'm sure I can't be the only one who thought they're ridiculous.

Uh, okay. Don't see how that pertains to the discussion at hand. So if you liked this show better, then it wouldn't be sexist? Huh.