New Ciro Nieli podcast... the future of Nick TMNT & more!

[Martin]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Having an abusive boyfriend in which she left him for good anyway =/= a legitimate love interest. Having a pervy old man stalker after a girl =/= she's love interest. Come on now.

AT has pass because both. I like it, it has more girls and they're not afraid to show it, and some of their stories are really really mature. It doesn't insult children's intelligence.

Admit it, there are times in 2K12 it feels... immature. Remember the Metalhead episode the three turtles never thought of attacking the Kraang attached to it's head? Yeah, I'm sure I can't be the only one who thought they're ridiculous.

Ciro did say during the podcast (which I wonder how many people actually listened to; not talking to anyone in particular btw, just a thought) that it's a rule in animation for kids shows to never have headshots. However, they do occasionally kick kraangs around and stuff-let's not forget donnie smashing one against a wall in operation breakout-so I don't really know how true that actually is...

The point is, it is immature cause it's sort of supposed to be like that. Other shows might have different aims, but this show's creators intended this one to be this way. I would also love for more in depth stories, but you know, the show isn't really for us. It's supposed to be fun, not constant drama. Besides, there is probably a TON of red tape at nickelodeon when it comes to dealing with more mature themes.

Truth is, we can all sit here and talk about this all we want, but it's their show. We can suggest changes, but that's it. At the end of the day, they are just gonna do what they think it's best for the series. And honestly, so far, they've been doing a good job at it.

[Jester]

I keep reading that "Female characters need a reason to exist in a universe...but male characters don't..." but doesn't it depend on the media in question? Aren't most male characters in media directed at women purely there to move the story along and out of said plot convenience, and if they didn't play that role they wouldn't exist?

I'll go back to the friendship analogy. Most people are drawn to friends who have similar interests/backgrounds. Does it make you a misogynist/misandrist/racist/homophobic if your circle of friends is rather homogeneous?

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Marcy and the boyfriend lived together and were an item for some time, IIRC. I'd call that legit. As for Ice King... seriously? Isn't the whole argument here on the fact that Don's pervy stalking of April makes her a love interest by default?




Uh, okay. Don't see how that pertains to the discussion at hand. So if you liked this show better, then it wouldn't be sexist? Huh.

So? Doesn't change they're no longer an item. She's single now. And do fans REALLY care about her douchebag bf and allow that to be the thing that shapes her character? If that's what you think about it that made you say "she's not a good female character because she has an ex", stay away from her fandom.

And I am actually offended you just compared Don to the Ice King. Really? I know you want to argue that 2k12 is the better show but REALLY?

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

So? Doesn't change they're no longer an item. She's single now. And do fans REALLY care about her douchebag bf and allow that to be the thing that shapes her character? If that's what you think about it, stay away from her fandom.

And I am actually offended you just compared Don to the Ice King. Really? I know you want to argue that 2k12 is the better show but REALLY?

That offends you? C'mon.

The fandom sh*tshorm going on right now also has to do with the fact that there are only 2 main females in the current TMNT show, and that both of them are in a love interest role. Love interests perpetrated by other men (Leo and Don) but not reciprocated. I don't see the difference in the two shows. IK and Don are nothing alike as characters, but the females in both are pretty much in the same role.

Marceline having a boyfriend, whether she kicked him to the curb or no, still makes her a love interest.

I think they're both great shows and hard to compare. AT has been on for many more seasons and has had some really amazing storytelling come from it. We're just getting started with 2k12. I love it, but will it be great after five seasons or so? Hope so. I haven't been disappointed yet.

[Avatar Yuffie]

You reminded me of the Apritello bashers who demonizes Don as the creepy Nice Guy trope. I remember putting up defense for the guy that his feelings are natural for a teen, and as long as he doesn't kidnaps her or forces her or feel he's obligated to be "the only one" for her and kill other people "who gets in the way", then his crush should not be treated as a bad thing.

If you find it funny and comparable to the Ice King, that's really sad. And you're a creep.

Marceline having a boyfriend, whether she kicked him to the curb or no, still makes her a love interest.

You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[SpiderFly]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

I gotta disagree with that. It's great that there are shows with strong female characters, there should be. But why should every show fit a specific model? And why only women? Does Adventure Time accurately represent Asian people? Does Steven Universe have characters of different sexual orientations? What's the ratio of cats to dogs in Airbender, will my cat be offended watching with me?

Everyone wants to be represented. But that's not possible to do in every work of art. Over PC-ification stifles creativity. Let the work stand on it's own. I never understood how someone's enjoyment of something could be based solely on whether or not they feel personally, accurately portrayed within it.

If you have a story to tell, then go out and tell it. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Rebecca Sugar is a good example. She worked hard to get where she is, to do the show she wanted to do. Let that inspire other women to do the same. I never liked this, "we shouldn't have to!" thing. You wanna change the world, sister, then get off your butt and do it. Crying sexism at every turn is not the way towards progress.

I'm not saying to fit every show into a cookie cutter mold. The reason why people are arguing for more shows that have strong female characters is because, overall, there is a severe lack of them. Just because I argue for more female representation doesn't mean I think others should get the short end of the stick. I'm not asking a lot. I'm asking for roughly 50% of our population. I wouldn't be so upset if I didn't see this wherever I go. With so many options for characters, we should be branching out more.

Yes, it's not possible to do everything but its not hard to have more variety in shows like these. It really isn't, and it should be welcomed. And you can enjoy something while being critical of how it treats other people.

Talking about it is doing something about it. Awareness. And I promote and encourage shows that do have strong characters and variety. And I hope to write/draw my own comics someday. Pointing out sexism where it does appear does help things. If you don't call someone out on negative behavior then it is assumed acceptable/welcomed. I don't have to be a five star chef to tell when something tastes bad.

[NinjaPug]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Oh, I would almost bet money that Renet will show up. And maybe sooner than we think.

First, thanks for the podcast. It sucks that the handling of female characters in this show is driving the entire discussion of the podcast but that's how the Internet works.

As far as your post above, it sounds like you know something we don't regarding Renet.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

You reminded me of the Apritello bashers who demonizes Don as the creepy Nice Guy trope. I remember putting up defense for the guy that his feelings are natural for a teen, and as long as he doesn't kidnaps her or forces her or feel he's obligated to be "the only one" for her and kill other people "who gets in the way", then his crush should not be treated as a bad thing.

If you find it funny and comparable to the Ice King, that's really sad. And you're a creep.

Nah, you're missing that point entirely.

I love Don in this show. I even like the Don/April thing. I didn't think I would, but it's provided some good humor. I don't even mind the whole Don/April/Casey thing they're going into, I think it's great.

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

This calls for a funny gif

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by Martin

Ciro did say during the podcast (which I wonder how many people actually listened to; not talking to anyone in particular btw, just a thought) that it's a rule in animation for kids shows to never have headshots. However, they do occasionally kick kraangs around and stuff-let's not forget donnie smashing one against a wall in operation breakout-so I don't really know how true that actually is...

The point is, it is immature cause it's sort of supposed to be like that. Other shows might have different aims, but this show's creators intended this one to be this way. I would also love for more in depth stories, but you know, the show isn't really for us. It's supposed to be fun, not constant drama. Besides, there is probably a TON of red tape at nickelodeon when it comes to dealing with more mature themes.

Truth is, we can all sit here and talk about this all we want, but it's their show. We can suggest changes, but that's it. At the end of the day, they are just gonna do what they think it's best for the series. And honestly, so far, they've been doing a good job at it.

Well, at least Ciro mentioned it will be darker... which btw doesn't necessarily mean it makes stories good because grimdark stuff is so 90's, and Nickelodeon's a bit stiff on that.

[Andrew NDB]

Personally I'd rather -- as I told Ciro on the cast when we did it -- just continue to "do him." Meaning, do what he's doing (which has so far been highly entertaining to me) and not worry about what any particular part of the fandom is asking him to do, even if that is "We'd like to see more female characters in non-romantic interest roles."

Is Nick TMNT empowering for young women, in every way? Maybe not, but I don't know that a TMNT show -- even one for kids -- needs to do that. And it's not like my daughter isn't watching My Little Pony or something else right after or before TMNT to maybe "balance the scales."

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Well, at least Ciro mentioned it will be darker... which btw doesn't necessarily mean it makes stories good because grimdark stuff is so 90's, and Nickelodeon's a bit stiff on that.

I think it's a neat approach. As the audience gets older, year by year, so does the material... makes sense to me, otherwise kids will just outgrow it.

And no one seriously believes it's ever going to lose its humor.

[Master Splinter]

I thought the podcast was excellent. That is all.

-ms

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by SpiderFly

I'm not saying to fit every show into a cookie cutter mold. The reason why people are arguing for more shows that have strong female characters is because, overall, there is a severe lack of them. Just because I argue for more female representation doesn't mean I think others should get the short end of the stick. I'm not asking a lot. I'm asking for roughly 50% of our population. I wouldn't be so upset if I didn't see this wherever I go. With so many options for characters, we should be branching out more.

Yes, it's not possible to do everything but its not hard to have more variety in shows like these. It really isn't, and it should be welcomed. And you can enjoy something while being critical of how it treats other people.

Talking about it is doing something about it. Awareness. And I promote and encourage shows that do have strong characters and variety. And I hope to write/draw my own comics someday. Pointing out sexism where it does appear does help things. If you don't call someone out on negative behavior then it is assumed acceptable/welcomed. I don't have to be a five star chef to tell when something tastes bad.

It's great that you want to make comics, I wish you luck. That's what's great about having creative control of something, you get to do what you want. But let me ask you this: are you going to create your own stories with an equal number of men and women? What about POC, etc., etc. What will you do when an unrepresented group calls you "sexist" or "racist" because your work didn't represent them? Can you imagine the pressure in trying to please so many fans?

Again, saying you wish for something to be different =/= straight out calling something sexist. Ask for change, that's good. But let's not sling accusations of sexism just because something doesn't satisfy what you want.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Well, at least Ciro's aware girls actually watch his show now.

[turtletoons81]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Personally I'd rather -- as I told Ciro on the cast when we did it -- just continue to "do him." Meaning, do what he's doing (which has so far been highly entertaining to me) and not worry about what any particular part of the fandom is asking him to do, even if that is "We'd like to see more female characters in non-romantic interest roles."

Is Nick TMNT empowering for young women, in every way? Maybe not, but I don't know that a TMNT show -- even one for kids -- needs to do that. And it's not like my daughter isn't watching My Little Pony or something else right after or before TMNT to maybe "balance the scales."



I think it's a neat approach. As the audience gets older, year by year, so does the material... makes sense to me, otherwise kids will just outgrow it.

And no one seriously believes it's ever going to lose its humor.

heck ciro said on cowabunga corner he didn't wanted to compare it to other show's like the ot or 2k3 since he want's a show that's entertaining on it's own and honestly he's right,the guy has gotten alot of crap for what he might have misunderstood on his own thought's and literally how long have we gone through this whole fanbase threaten's creator in each one alot heck some people left the fanbase because of the sh*tstorm that cause yesterday podcast.

[CyberCubed]

Ciro said that towards the end of Season 2 they got much darker and he had execs from Nickelodeon giving him concerns that the show was getting a bit adult.

I think that's fantastic. Makes me think the later Season 2 eps will be incredible.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by NinjaPug

First, thanks for the podcast. It sucks that the handling of female characters in this show is driving the entire discussion of the podcast but that's how the Internet works.

To be fair, that "lack of girls" thing had been a complaint since season 1. Also didn't help April wasn't handled well either.

It just collected and exploded. Can't say it wasn't foreseen.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Well, at least Ciro's aware girls actually watch his show now.

Pff. Yeah. He's also aware that a chunk of them are nutty enough to send him death threats over a cartoon show. Talk about poor representation.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Pff. Yeah. He's also aware that a chunk of them are nutty enough to send him death threats over a cartoon show. Talk about poor representation.

Yeah but those people are 20+ year old females with too much time on their hands...not the 6-10 year old girls watching who are the actual target audience.

[SpiderFly]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

It's great that you want to make comics, I wish you luck. That's what's great about having creative control of something, you get to do what you want. But let me ask you this: are you going to create your own stories with an equal number of men and women? What about POC, etc., etc. What will you do when an unrepresented group calls you "sexist" or "racist" because your work didn't represent them? Can you imagine the pressure in trying to please so many fans?

Again, saying you wish for something to be different =/= straight out calling something sexist. Ask for change, that's good. But let's not sling accusations of sexism just because something doesn't satisfy what you want.

When I create comics I'm going to introduce readers to as much variety as possible. I may focus on one specific character but I'm going to imply a larger world with different people. I don't have to represent everyone but imply a world that says its has things that are different and that that's okay and celebrated. I would welcome someone pointing out anything sexist/racist in my work. That gives me the opportunity to change it.

It is sexist. It isn't blatant because I don't think Ciro intended to be sexist but it's there in a small way that kids are smart enough to pick up on. Some have taken this out of proportion. To say he is a bad man and should be fired is overkill. But to also say people shouldn't be upset is also overkill.

[Jester]

I'm just gonna leave this here...take it as you see fit:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/f...bout-film.html