Splinter has Nobody

[Raph's Girl]

Big deal.. So Splinter is strict at times. But that only cuz he cares about his family.

Yes he's a dick and hides things (like in the Ninja Tribunal storyline where he reveals he knew about the true Shredder all along. Uh...like he couldn't have told them in the fraking first place?! ) to supposadly protect em. But there are things he should have revealed over the years (like oh I don't know....the Ninja Tribunal! ).

Even in the comics after Splinter's death they're finding out things they didn't know. Like Leo accidentally stumbling on to the Battle Nexus (where he's currently befriending Shredder/Oroku Yoshi).

So um...yea... Splinter's a dick but he's still a loving father...altho with his love for soaps...perhaps he's the mother too.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

No, I don't think they deserve it; and even though they aren't your average family, it doesn't make physical assault any more appropriate a way to deal with family; he can be strict,keep them strong, and discipline them without doing that. And I'm not saying Splinter is self-absorbed, but i did think it was a little peculiar that the only enemy he eventually desired them to face is the one he had a personal matter with, and I have seen him be disrespectful once or twice when someone didn't deserve it, some examples I've already given.

Also, I don't have anything against the show being actionfied, I know darn well it's all about that, but some of the family moments they have had i found to be a bit sour, and more so than they had to be.

By the way your saying pysical assult, youre sounding like he just goes around kicking the **** out of them on a daily basis(that's just during training). It's just a slap over the head, you mean to tell me you never did that whenever someone said or did something stupid. I do it to my cousins, doesn't mean I'm mean or abusive, I'm just setting them straight. Thats what Splinter does. I'm sorry if he's not Danny Tanner enough for you.

As for that thing with the Shredder, I already said, the only reason he had them go back and fight the Shredder, is because the turtles already started the fight. So they had to go back and finish it, otherwise The Foot would have hunted them down(which they eventually did, but thats another story).

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

By the way your saying pysical assult, youre sounding like he just goes around kicking the **** out of them on a daily basis (that's just during training). It's just a slap over the head, you mean to tell me you never did that whenever someone said or did something stupid. I do it to my cousins, doesn't mean I'm mean or abusive, I'm just setting them straight.

Maybe I used the wrong terminology, when I said "physical assault", the slaps were what I was referring to, not their training. And NO actually, i never slapped people behind the head for doing something stupid, because I DO consider it mean and also immature; that's one of the areas where the new TMNT show is not "more mature". Slapping/spanking/hitting as a form of discipline only makes people want to hit you back, and rather than setting someone straight, I believe it more likely promotes further rebellious, possibly violent, or even suicidal (if it goes on long enough), behavior. And like I said before, hitting is how one deals with his mortal enemies, NOT his family (no offense). The only time I've felt right about hitting people is if they hit me first and were in no way related to me, otherwise I settle it with simple, straight conversation.

Originally Posted by Raph's Girl

Big deal.. So Splinter is strict at times. But that only cuz he cares about his family.

In case you misinterpreted me, I didn't imply that Splinter shouldn't be strict. What I implied was splinter should be strict "with his voice" NOT "with his cane/hands".

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Maybe I used the wrong terminology, when I said "physical assault", the slaps were what I was referring to, not their training. And NO actually, i never slapped people behind the head for doing something stupid, because I DO consider it mean and also immature; that's one of the areas where the new TMNT show is not "more mature". Slapping/spanking/hitting as a form of discipline only makes people want to hit you back, and rather than setting someone straight, I believe it more likely promotes further rebellious, possibly violent, or even suicidal (if it goes on long enough), behavior. And like I said before, hitting is how one deals with his mortal enemies, NOT his family (no offense). The only time I've felt right about hitting people is if they hit me first and were in no way related to me, otherwise I settle it with simple, straight conversation.

Okay.......now tell me. Have any of the turtles developed anyone these signs. No, So what the fudge is the big fudging deal. Sure he's whapped them upside the head on occasions. But have they become better people? Yes! So he's obviously done something right. Now I'm not saying thats the end result of the slapping, but I'm just saying. Him being strict but caring turned them into the TMNT we know today.

[Sage Ninja]

ok you know what triplexxx, I think in some instances you are being a little nit-picky but you do touch upon some very good points about Splinter. He does seem to have his faults and his actions can seem questionable to say the very least. In your post you touch upon three things about Splinter that I think are valid points that suggest some selfish or not quite so noble behavior on Splinter's part.

And they are Splinter acts as both father and sensie to the turtles but some times the role of sensie over shadows the father role, to a point that makes him take unfair risks with his sons lives. And you are right I think we as fans have the tendasay to over look Splinter's actions at times because he is such a nice rat, but there are times when I Splinter gets more absorbed with being the sensei than being the father. And I'm not singling out the new toon Splinter, it shows in the most mediums of his character.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Well, maybe there is something else. If I remember the original comic book storyline correctly, the primary reason Master Splinter began training his sons in the first place was so one day they could avenge his master; yet in the new toon, Splinter clearly tells his sons in the flashbacks of them as kids that he never wants them "going topside", and when they're teenagers he still discourages it. Now I believe when a family wants to train their children at an extremely early age (in martial arts, to be a bodybuilder, etc.), they most definitely need some outrageously provacative type of motivation (and to do it simply to pass on a family tradition is not enough). When Splinter said in "Shredder strikes part 1" that he hoped the day his sons learned who the Shredder is would never come, I honestly didn't believe he was telling the whole truth. Now while I'm sure Master Splinter's intentions for his sons' lives are good, I believe his motives are somewhat foul.
When I said Splinter was "wrapped up in himself" I was thinking that maybe he was a little too concerned with his own life problems and not so much concerned with those of other innocent people. For instance, whenever a situation came up on the surface which involved Shredder, this was the only time I remember Splinter encouraging his sons to go topside and fight, he didn't at first but later on he did.

You have some good points here in this post. Splinters actions toward his sons are bit contradictive. He trained them to fight so that they could be ninjas and know the art of invisabilty so they can't be spotted easily becasue they are freaks of nature. So him teaching them how to be ninjas could be excused by his desire to teach them to be able to move around undectected by the general public so they do not get kidnapped by sciencetists and dissected. But then why did he teach them such advanced forms of nintisu? He could very well have taught them some moves in order to protect them selves if they get discoved, but lets face it, be brought them up like warriors and to act as warriors.

Lets face it, its ommitted in the new that he wanted brought them up to avenge yoshi aganist Shredder, but even though Splinter in the new says he didn't want them to ever meet Shredder, itsw clear that he trained them for the very purpose of vengence. there is no getting around that. So Splinter's attentions toweard the turtles are a little questionable.

[Buslady]

Originally Posted by gobo

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Mrs. M?

Mrs Morrison raph befriended when he was being chased by Foot dudes.

[Sage Ninja]

Ok to continue on with what I was saying earlier (I had to go to class so i had to cut my self short) was that Triplexxx did point out some stuff about Splinter that isn't exactly noble. I think to an extent Triplexxx is right. It does appear that Splinter has less problems of the turtles going after Shredder than any other villian. Splinter goes from not wanting the turtles to have any thing at all to do with the Shredder to wanting them to take him down for murduring Yoshi.

And I under stand that Shredder was a menace that needed to be stopped but in Exodus was it really nessary for all of them to go after the shredder the way that they did. He was leaving the planet and not going to bother the earth or the TMNT any more, but Splinter wanted to take him out. Splinter was clearly looking for vengence and they boys where all about to sacrifice their lives in order to do it. Now we can all say that the turtles where willing and Shredder was evil and Slinter deserved to get his vengence, but the point is---was it fair of Splinter to raise the turtles as ninjas with the objective of getting revenge on Shredder? I mean putting ninja protacal and honor of avenging ones master aside, was it right for Splinter to use the turtles in this way? I mean there is doubt that he loves them but in a perverse sort of way his treatment of the boys is a bit cold blooded, and it had consequences on Leonardo because he took the brunt of the responciablity of his family nearly getting killed.

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by hobbit_mania

I second the "he has everyone" idea. The dude can't be lonely with four turtles and a reporter always running around.

And a crazy New York vigillante wanna be, and the Damio, and Usagi Yojimbo... etc.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Ok to continue on with what I was saying earlier (I had to go to class so i had to cut my self short) was that Triplexxx did point out some stuff about Splinter that isn't exactly noble. I think to an extent Triplexxx is right. It does appear that Splinter has less problems of the turtles going after Shredder than any other villian. Splinter goes from not wanting the turtles to have any thing at all to do with the Shredder to wanting them to take him down for murduring Yoshi.

And I under stand that Shredder was a menace that needed to be stopped but in Exodus was it really nessary for all of them to go after the shredder the way that they did. He was leaving the planet and not going to bother the earth or the TMNT any more, but Splinter wanted to take him out. Splinter was clearly looking for vengence and they boys where all about to sacrifice their lives in order to do it. Now we can all say that the turtles where willing and Shredder was evil and Slinter deserved to get his vengence, but the point is---was it fair of Splinter to raise the turtles as ninjas with the objective of getting revenge on Shredder? I mean putting ninja protacal and honor of avenging ones master aside, was it right for Splinter to use the turtles in this way? I mean there is doubt that he loves them but in a perverse sort of way his treatment of the boys is a bit cold blooded, and it had consequences on Leonardo because he took the brunt of the responciablity of his family nearly getting killed.

Let me address the Exodus point.

1. Shredder was going to kill the Utroms, friends of the TMNT, why wouldn't they want to stop him?

2. You did know that once Shredder finished with the Utroms, he was going to come back to earth and conqer it right?

Also, before you blame Master Splinter for the Exodus thing, Leo and the rest of the TMNT insisted on helping, Splinter didn't force him.

You and triplexxx are putting so much heat on Master Splinter, but his treatment of the TMNT is nowhere near cold blooded. If your gonna come down on Splinter, you might as well come down on Kakashi, Gai, and all the other teachers of Naruto. But I digress.

Master Splinter has a tough job. He has to be a sensei and a father, and he handles it perfectly. He's gotta be tough on his sons, to keep them strong warriors. But he is also there for his sons emotionally. He wouldn't put his sons in extremley dangerous situations all willy-nilly.

Splinter goes from not wanting the turtles to have any thing at all to do with the Shredder to wanting them to take him down for murduring Yoshi.

Granted he trained the boys to kill Shredder, but didn't want them going up against him at that time, but think about it. The TMNT weren't ready to face the Shredder yet. And it was apparant from the fac that Splinter had to intervine to save them from getting killed. They could take the Foot, but no Shredder himself. Thats probably why he didn't want them going up against him yet.

Master Splinter doesn't let his two roles overlap, if they did, don't you think the Turtles would have left him long ago.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

Master Splinter doesn't let his two roles overlap, if they did, don't you think the Turtles would have left him long ago.

Where could they possibly have gone, it's not like they had a choice in this matter.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Where could they possibly have gone, it's not like they had a choice in this matter.

Yes, yes they did. The sewers in New York are vast. They could have found a new lair.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

Let me address the Exodus point.

1. Shredder was going to kill the Utroms, friends of the TMNT, why wouldn't they want to stop him?

2. You did know that once Shredder finished with the Utroms, he was going to come back to earth and conqer it right?

Also, before you blame Master Splinter for the Exodus thing, Leo and the rest of the TMNT insisted on helping, Splinter didn't force him.

You and triplexxx are putting so much heat on Master Splinter, but his treatment of the TMNT is nowhere near cold blooded. If your gonna come down on Splinter, you might as well come down on Kakashi, Gai, and all the other teachers of Naruto. But I digress.

Master Splinter has a tough job. He has to be a sensei and a father, and he handles it perfectly. He's gotta be tough on his sons, to keep them strong warriors. But he is also there for his sons emotionally. He wouldn't put his sons in extremley dangerous situations all willy-nilly.




Granted he trained the boys to kill Shredder, but didn't want them going up against him at that time, but think about it. The TMNT weren't ready to face the Shredder yet. And it was apparant from the fac that Splinter had to intervine to save them from getting killed. They could take the Foot, but no Shredder himself. Thats probably why he didn't want them going up against him yet.

Master Splinter doesn't let his two roles overlap, if they did, don't you think the Turtles would have left him long ago.

Ok, let me first say that I am not trying to bash Splinter, or come down hard on his character or be overly harsh. I was just commenting that despite the fact that triplexxx was being rather nit-picky about some of his/her examples about Splinter that he/she did touch upon some good points about Splinter's character--in general, not just in the New toon incarnation of him. And that is because of his vendette against Shredder he trained the turtles to fight and kill him for vengence. What I was asking every one, was to be opened minded enough to look at this aspect of Splinter and the reasons why he trained the turtles for this purpose, if whether or not he was acted a bit unfairly toward them as people to raise them to carry out a vendette.

Thats all. I'm not exactly condeming or condoning Splinter, because in thruth I like Splinter and his character and do belive he is a good father, thought, like any character Splinter has his faults and isn't perfect, and it could be discussed.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Ok, let me first say that I am not trying to bash Splinter, or come down hard on his character or be overly harsh. I was just commenting that despite the fact that triplexxx was being rather nit-picky about some of his/her examples about Splinter that he/she did touch upon some good points about Splinter's character--in general, not just in the New toon incarnation of him. And that is because of his vendette against Shredder he trained the turtles to fight and kill him for vengence. What I was asking every one, was to be opened minded enough to look at this aspect of Splinter and the reasons why he trained the turtles for this purpose, if whether or not he was acted a bit unfairly toward them as people to raise them to carry out a vendette.

Thats all. I'm not exactly condeming or condoning Splinter, because in thruth I like Splinter and his character and do belive he is a good father, thought, like any character Splinter has his faults and isn't perfect, and it could be discussed.

I am trying to be open minded. But look at it this way, he did train the TMNT to avenge Master Yoshi, but think,if thats all he raised them for, wouldn't he have discarded them as soon as they offed Shredder?

[Demero]

I think Splinter is content as he is and, like Yoda in Star Wars, doesnt need to rely on others to be happy.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

I am trying to be open minded. But look at it this way, he did train the TMNT to avenge Master Yoshi, but think,if thats all he raised them for, wouldn't he have discarded them as soon as they offed Shredder?

That is very true. And I have no doubt in my mind that Splinter loves his sons very much. Because he has shown that he has in every single medium that has depicted the TMNT (including the old toon though people may refute that). However, and I know am about to get flamed for adding this point, the conflict between Splinter and Shredder was between them and only them. I know that Splinter was old but if he wanted to avenge Yoshi's death why didn't he do it him self? Instead of bringing four innocents into the vendette that had nothing to do with them into it?

I bring this question up because I came upon a site called Dissected and it has a section about Splinter. Now mind you the site is exclusively is about the old toon, the one where Splinter is actually Hamato Yoshi and gets turned into a rat by Shredder. And it is also stated that much of the content is just "tongue-in-cheek" observations that aren't to be taken to seriously but it does seem to have some good aguments about Old Toon Splinter. Here is the Link:

http://www.geocities.com/tmntdissected/splinter.htm

Just read it all the way though, and remeber that the site is talking abvout Old Toon Splinter. And that the writer of the site isn't being entirely serious.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

That is very true. And I have no doubt in my mind that Splinter loves his sons very much. Because he has shown that he has in every single medium that has depicted the TMNT (including the old toon though people may refute that). However, and I know am about to get flamed for adding this point, the conflict between Splinter and Shredder was between them and only them. I know that Splinter was old but if he wanted to avenge Yoshi's death why didn't he do it him self? Instead of bringing four innocents into the vendette that had nothing to do with them into it?

I bring this question up because I came upon a site called Dissected and it has a section about Splinter. Now mind you the site is exclusively is about the old toon, the one where Splinter is actually Hamato Yoshi and gets turned into a rat by Shredder. And it is also stated that much of the content is just "tongue-in-cheek" observations that aren't to be taken to seriously but it does seem to have some good aguments about Old Toon Splinter. Here is the Link:

http://www.geocities.com/tmntdissected/splinter.htm

Just read it all the way though, and remeber that the site is talking abvout Old Toon Splinter. And that the writer of the site isn't being entirely serious.

I took a look at the article, and your right, it is all about the all toon. It's obvious this persons knowledge of the TMNT ends there. If he bothered the read the comic, he would see that Splinter wasn't as "kick butt" as he was in the cartoons. It's no wonder why he would train his sons to help him carry out his vendetta. But he's not a bad guy, he does'nt stand in the way of his sons intrest. He also does'nt favor one over the other. The dude should read the comics more, or watch the new toon. He would see not only does he train Leo, but also helps Raph with his anger issues, let's Don continue his quest for knowledge, and in that short story in the back of Tales issue 25, encourages Mikey's artistic nature.

If Splinter only used his sons for vengence, he would have cast them off after they killed the Shredder. Splinter loves his sons, he didn't use them as tools, he would never do that, otherwise he would be just like the Shredder. Granted, in the comic he trained the Turtles to avenge Master Yoshi, however, it's not like their childhood was filled with non stop training, otherwise, the Turtles would be alot different, they would be more cold and merciless.

[aabxx]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

No, I don't think they deserve it; and even though they aren't your average family, it doesn't make physical assault any more appropriate a way to deal with family; he can be strict,keep them strong, and discipline them without doing that. And I'm not saying Splinter is self-absorbed, but i did think it was a little peculiar that the only enemy he eventually desired them to face is the one he had a personal matter with, and I have seen him be disrespectful once or twice when someone didn't deserve it, some examples I've already given.

Oh for god's sake. Mankind has been using "physical assault" as a way of discipline since mankind became mankind. It is still used in most of the world I would reckon... do you really believe yourself to be more civilized than the billions of parents who've used physical punishment over the history of mankind? Do you know better than all of them how they should've raised their children?

My father used to physically discipline me. The same can be said about many of my friends. It taught us discipline and to stay out of trouble and to know our boundaries so that the family could function harmonically. And I've never heard any of them complain. And most of us had great childhoods.

Physical punishment works. It does not ALWAYS work, but nothing does. It's a good and proven way through the course of so many years that it sounds insulting to even suggest that it's wrong... even more so when you consider it's only been in vogue for a few decades in some parts of the world...

But the other points you made about Splinter I can agree more with. Splinter is not a saint, and he has his faults. I mean come on, he didn't HAVE to put his sons through countless hours of hard (and dangerous) training to become lethal shadow warriors. So why did he? I do believe revenge was the main motivation, although that might've changed over the years when he grew wiser. I mean, he started off as a rat... probably, as a rat, he did not know much about concepts such as ethics and honor and how to raise children (and why), and the only thoughts he might've had were those of revenging his master. Therefore, he could have adopted the turtles not out of kindness (to protect, raise and teach), but more so to use them as his tools of revenge?

[triplexxx]

I apologize if I sounded overly touchy about the subject of physical punishment, it's just that I grew up in a home & family where violence is never used to resolve conflicts, and we too manage to be a happy, functional family. I do understand that for some, "physical discipline" is looked at as useful, necessary & acceptable; while others look at it as useless, unnecessary & immoral. My POV just happens to be the latter.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

I apologize if I sounded overly touchy about the subject of physical punishment, it's just that I grew up in a home & family where violence is never used to resolve conflicts, and we too manage to be a happy, functional family. I do understand that for some, "physical discipline" is looked at as useful, necessary & acceptable; while others look at it as useless, unnecessary & immoral. My POV just happens to be the latter.

I have recently just started to watch the new toon, and in most cases, I love it. Cases I don't like it, Splinter's unrelenting use of his cane on Michelangelo. It bothers me. I mean, if Splinter is still having to use his cane to so call "knock some sense in Mikey's brain" then the method is apparently ineffective, because he seems to be doing it all the time.

As for the way Splinter is training his sons, I think he is doing the best to his knowledge and experience. He doesn't have access to great schools, or for the Turtles to excell in other spheres because of the situations.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

I have recently just started to watch the new toon, and in most cases, I love it. Cases I don't like it, Splinter's unrelenting use of his cane on Michelangelo. It bothers me. I mean, if Splinter is still having to use his cane to so call "knock some sense in Mikey's brain" then the method is apparently ineffective, because he seems to be doing it all the time.

As for the way Splinter is training his sons, I think he is doing the best to his knowledge and experience. He doesn't have access to great schools, or for the Turtles to excell in other spheres because of the situations.

I don't think he's bothered by it. After all, everyone does it. Splinter, Leo, Raph, Don, even that Tribunal member.