Splinter has Nobody

[Rooish]

Oh good God. I was almost convinced that Splinter's stick use wasn't so bad until I saw that. Okay, that was pretty bad. Come on people, he threw his stick at Mikey's head!

Yes, Mikey was acting like an idiot and was very out of line and annoying. He was trying to get attention when Splinter was training Leo and Raph. But Splinter is his parent, and parents are supposed to give relatively responsible and reasonable discipline that will actually guide their children to be more moral and responsible people. Well, that's what I think. I think that Splinter is way more out of line, and I am not just saying that because I like Mikey.

At least that was a deleted clip, and I know it was meant to be funny. But seriously, if that was in real life, the authorities could take Splinter's kids away from him.


Yay my 100th post!

[Spawn Guy]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

And I mentioned earlier that I wondered why Splinter allows some things to go for as long as they do in his family, when he should probably step in. Like the whole animosity between Leo and Raph. I know others have mentioned that it doesn' seem so apprant in the new toon, but I felt the animosty between the two was more off screen and alluded to. Resulting in the two being fiercely competive with one another. I wonder if Splinter didn't allow the competiveness to continue because of some ultertive motive of strengthening the team dynamic. You know, by letting these two compete with one another that it motivates them to out do each other and work to their fullest potenticial. that would be a little whacked out.

My brother and I fight. Not as bad as Leo and Raph, yeah, but even though our father steps in, when he dosen't it's because we're brothers. We're going to fight. What's Splinter supossed to do? Cut them off from each other completly?

If that where the case I wonder why he didn't try something like that with Mikey to get him to be more motivated and train harder. As it is Mikey just slacks off.

Like what? Maybe show him what slacking off results in when it's crunch time in an enviroment that he assumes is going to teleport him out of danger?

I'm not sure I under stand what you are saying here. Him gloating about his battle nexus championship win is typical of Mikey, So I don't see how that was serious, and if you are refering to Kluh comeing back to challenge Mikey, there was no way of Splinter of knowing that...i'm assuming.

I was. I meant he'd never gotten himself into something he had to get himself out of all on his own.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Oh good God. I was almost convinced that Splinter's stick use wasn't so bad until I saw that. Okay, that was pretty bad. Come on people, he threw his stick at Mikey's head!

Yes, Mikey was acting like an idiot and was very out of line and annoying. He was trying to get attention when Splinter was training Leo and Raph. But Splinter is his parent, and parents are supposed to give relatively responsible and reasonable discipline that will actually guide their children to be more moral and responsible people. Well, that's what I think. I think that Splinter is way more out of line, and I am not just saying that because I like Mikey.
Yay my 100th post!

ok, I guess i'm in the minority here but I did think the stick throwing was kinda funny. And actually, the cane struck Mikey right in the face not in the head, go back and re-watch it carefully and you'll see it actually caught the side of his face. I think the reason I found it funny at first was because the action just took me by suprise that Splinter would actually throw his cane at him. But it did look like it hit him pretty hard, it nocked him right off his perch, and Splinter must have thrown it pretty hard if the force of the throw was enough to bounce the cane back to him. And you'll notice that Splinter was a pretty good distance away from Mikey when he did this. Although Mikey didn't act like it hurt him that much. He did get up imediatly after ward so the blow probably just stunned him.

As to whether he was out of line for throwing the cane at him? Maybe just a little. I admit I was rather supriced with Splinter's reaction, but then Splinter was wearing his sensei cap on at that moment not his father cap. I've been to karate and seen my sensie take out students that where out of line. But then that was when they whetre very out of line. I don't think Mieky's mild k=joking warranted that sort of responce. But then Splinter must have felt that Mikey should have known better. Although Splinter could have just ordered Mikey out of the room instead of nailing him, that might have been a better way to handle Mikey in that situation.

Spawn Guy, I'll get back to your post when I have a chance.

[Rooish]

Well... I suppose. If that was real life it would have hurt a lot, but as a cartoon it was funny. But I don't think senseis should hit their students, either. I dunno, I guess I'm a huge pacifist or something.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Well... I suppose. If that was real life it would have hurt a lot, but as a cartoon it was funny. But I don't think senseis should hit their students, either. I dunno, I guess I'm a huge pacifist or something.

It's common for sensei's to hit they're students. I mean, look at Gai and Lee on Naruto. Gai punches the **** out of Lee whenever he gets out of line, but it's funny when it happens, and they always make up immediatley afterwards with a hug and waves splashing at sunset in the backgrund.

[Rooish]

I know, I know. But I don't think it's a moral method of training no matter how many people do it. But I know it happens so I will have to accept it. Ahhh please don't everyone think of me as the person who hates Splinter.

[Sage Ninja]

**sigh** Rooish, no one thinks you hate Splinter, at least i don't. I don't get why you think you are going to get attacked for voicing your opinion.Its a forum thats what it is for. I like reading a responding to your comments so don't hold back.

Originally Posted by Spawn Guy

My brother and I fight. Not as bad as Leo and Raph, yeah, but even though our father steps in, when he dosen't it's because we're brothers. We're going to fight. What's Splinter supossed to do? Cut them off from each other completly?

I don't know. I just wonder if Splinter didn't allow Leo and Raph to quaral (spelling ) so as to let the competion to motivate them out do them selves. As it is in the earlier episodes from what i saw Splinter seemed rather blase about there bickering. And in an enviroment where you are trying to teach some one skills like ninjitsu It seems having two members at each other throats would interfere with the learning of the other two members. Its obvious that Raph and Leo are the more agressive of the four and undoubtly got the most focus because of their agrsseiveness, I just wonder if Don and Mikey got a bit over looked in practice because of this. People who are more aesy going and laid back tend to fall into the back ground because they don't make waves. i'm just saying that maybe Splinter didn't do every think that he could to keep them in line because he felt that their cometiveness was a pay off to mold more edgier ninjas, and put the team dynamic before the family dynamic.

Like what? Maybe show him what slacking off results in when it's crunch time in an enviroment that he assumes is going to teleport him out of danger? I was. I meant he'd never gotten himself into something he had to get himself out of all on his own.

Well I think he could have nipped it in the bud before even all that. Like right away when Mikey started prancing about about his Nexus championship. Splinter takes him to task in the Grudge Match episode but you don;t really see him doing it in the episodes following the Big Brawl. Considering the natuture of the turtles and how Raphael in particular would be resentful of Mikey's boasting he should have took him to task right there. But I understand that Mikey seems to be the sort of person who only learns something the hard way, so maybe he decided to let him just fall hard for his actions. But Still I a little instruction on the perils of being a poor winner from Splinter might have made Mikey a bit less likely to rub it it in Raphael's face.

[Spawn Guy]

Maybe he did between shows, seeing as how he didn't help Mike out. It's like this "Did he or didn't try to stop the guys going after Shredder" thing (although there's plenty of evidence that he did). And I wouldn't say Raph and Leo were at each other's throats in the first season. I agree with you to a certain extent, although I don't think it was entierly for the benifit of the team (although given the situations they get into it could be a good thing). Again, they are brothers. I doubt Don and Leo get along all the time, so maybe Splinter dosen't step in because he thinks it's something they should settle themselves, let Leo and Raph smooth things out as they mature. I mean one of his catch phrases is "Kids."

And its 'quarrel', but I'll ley you off.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by Spawn Guy

Maybe he did between shows, seeing as how he didn't help Mike out. It's like this "Did he or didn't try to stop the guys going after Shredder" thing (although there's plenty of evidence that he did). And I wouldn't say Raph and Leo were at each other's throats in the first season. I agree with you to a certain extent, although I don't think it was entierly for the benifit of the team (although given the situations they get into it could be a good thing). Again, they are brothers. I doubt Don and Leo get along all the time, so maybe Splinter dosen't step in because he thinks it's something they should settle themselves, let Leo and Raph smooth things out as they mature. I mean one of his catch phrases is "Kids."

And its 'quarrel', but I'll ley you off.

Actually I've noticed out of all the turtles Leo and Don rarely get into any trouble with Splinter. Its like these two have no problems staying in Splinter's good grases for some reason. And Actually I have a very good feeling that Don and Leo get along very well, in fact I think any discord that might occur between them is probably resolved with a few words and that is that.

And you are right about the situation with Mikey and Splinter in Grudge Match there is no telling whether or not Splinter might have lectured him about his boasting or not off screen. I just get this really big feeling that he didn't for what ever reason. Its just times like this that make me wonder why Splinter prefers to step back and let things fester. Is he testing his sons to see how things might accumulate? Maybe he was hoping eighther Raph or Don or even Leo might succeed in doing something to shut him up. In eighther case I think he purposely left it alone so that Mikey would dig himself into a hole and bury himself and learn the hard way. I just personally don't think that is the best approach to take with Mikey. But what ever.

As to Leo and Raphs fighting. I can't help but think that some times Splinter lets his role of Sensei over rule his role of father every once in while. I think he might have let these two rivalry go on for the benefit of the team, and kind of ignored Don and Mikey a bit since there not as agressive. All I know from personal experince that being a tension filled enviroment where two more aggresive people are allowed to be agressive on checked that it creates a poorer learning enviroment for less agressive people who kind of get over looked or over shadowed by people with more forceful and comeptive personalities. Who knows maybe Don wouldn't be so wrapped up in technology and Mikey wouldn't be such a slacker and have been more focused ninjas if Raph and le4o rivalary hadn't gone unchecked.

[Spawn Guy]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Actually I've noticed out of all the turtles Leo and Don rarely get into any trouble with Splinter. Its like these two have no problems staying in Splinter's good grases for some reason. And Actually I have a very good feeling that Don and Leo get along very well, in fact I think any discord that might occur between them is probably resolved with a few words and that is that.

Which is kind of my point. They get along most of the time, but it is entirely possible they can tick each other off. It's probably not shown because it's not as interesting as Raph and Leo, and as you said they probably wrap it up after a few seconds.

And you are right about the situation with Mikey and Splinter in Grudge Match there is no telling whether or not Splinter might have lectured him about his boasting or not off screen. I just get this really big feeling that he didn't for what ever reason. Its just times like this that make me wonder why Splinter prefers to step back and let things fester. Is he testing his sons to see how things might accumulate?

Entirely possible. Remember, they're all living in the same environment, so maybe he feels they should learn how to deal with their differences or their rivalries or whatever. Because the alternative could very well be just having no kind of interaction at all other than what he deems acceptable, and I'm sure he dosen't want to do that.

Maybe he was hoping eighther Raph or Don or even Leo might succeed in doing something to shut him up. In eighther case I think he purposely left it alone so that Mikey would dig himself into a hole and bury himself and learn the hard way. I just personally don't think that is the best approach to take with Mikey. But what ever.

So what would be the better approach? We don't know if talking to him worked, if it was attempted. If the guys managed it on their own then wouldn't that be kind of good for them as growing mutants?

Also, if Mike wasn't mature enough to just quite while he was ahead, then dosen't that mean he'd have to start taking responsibility? It's tough love.
Say your parents don't tell you not to do something because all the examples of why it's bad are well known and they count on you to be a responsible person and not do it. You end up charged with whatever this is because you were stupid enough to do it but they don't bail you out. Okay, they probably should have told you not to do it rather than count on general knowledge, but since you had that knowledge and crossed the line anyway, it's still your fault. And why should you get any special treatment?

I don't see what you mean by that not being the best approach to handling Mike, as it actually worked. Isn't something like Grudge Match going to stick with Mike? I'm assuming given Splinter taught his sons to follow the harder path he also taught them not to toot their own horns, or maybe he just counted on them using common sense or courtesy. But the point is that is what Mike did. Sometimes dramatic examples work the best.

As to Leo and Raphs fighting. I can't help but think that some times Splinter lets his role of Sensei over rule his role of father every once in while. I think he might have let these two rivalry go on for the benefit of the team, and kind of ignored Don and Mikey a bit since there not as agressive. All I know from personal experince that being a tension filled enviroment where two more aggresive people are allowed to be agressive on checked that it creates a poorer learning enviroment for less agressive people who kind of get over looked or over shadowed by people with more forceful and comeptive personalities. Who knows maybe Don wouldn't be so wrapped up in technology and Mikey wouldn't be such a slacker and have been more focused ninjas if Raph and le4o rivalary hadn't gone unchecked.

Well don't they have to be a team sometimes? It's definitely saved their lives. Also, maybe it's just their natures. There may be influences, and they may have made choices, but maybe Don is just naturally introverted. As for ignoring Don and Mike the way your using the word makes it sound like he neglected them, and I given how much family means to him I just don't buy that. Beyond telling them not to go above ground and helping Leo with his fear of heights, we don't really know much about how he raised them, so maybe he encouraged all of them in their different interests, or just let them develop them on their own and thus themselves.

For whatever reason, he's teaching them ninjitsu and that requires a certain commitment. Maybe, since their all their own people, how focused a ninja they are depends on how their priorities work. As has been said he's also a father, and I think he does a good job handling both, although I'd be surprised if the line didn't sometimes blur. It'd be a good story if it did.

I don't see Leo and Raph as competitive, although I admit they can be. Their just different, so what is Splinter supposed to do to get them to stop? Again, assuming he hasn't made some attempts. Out in the field they can cross swords easily, because their natures are different, part of who they are and you can't just make that go away.

Ultimately, I believe Splinter did what he thought was right as a parent, and now that they've reached this point, he wants them to develop themselves, because that's part of what you do when you go grow up. And they will have to one day. He's made his choices and now they have to as well.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

**sigh** Rooish, no one thinks you hate Splinter, at least i don't. I don't get why you think you are going to get attacked for voicing your opinion.Its a forum thats what it is for. I like reading a responding to your comments so don't hold back.

Yeah, I'm insecure sometimes. My friends get annoyed about it all the time. I like reading your comments too. When I have some more I will post them.

[Spider]

I don't meen to be a douchebag but it's been a while since I've seen the show or read any of the comics but who exactly is "Klunk"?

[Spawn Guy]

Mike's cat.

[Rooish]

Don't see how that makes you a douchebag anyway. Hailing Satan, though...

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Hailing Satan, though...

That's for shock value. I don't believe in Satan. I've just said it so much it's become like my catchphrase. I told you I had a weird sense of humor.

And in my experience when you show ignorance on something in front of people who know pretty much everything on it...it makes you a douchebag. Not like I care anyway...I say most things in jest.

Uh, that was pretty irrelevant, I guess THAT makes me a douchebag.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by Spawn Guy

Entirely possible. Remember, they're all living in the same environment, so maybe he feels they should learn how to deal with their differences or their rivalries or whatever. Because the alternative could very well be just having no kind of interaction at all other than what he deems acceptable, and I'm sure he dosen't want to do that.

you know that is probably the case. I guess that Splinter feels that if he is always jumping in when ever one of the turtles has a conflict with the other that they would not learn how to deal with their own problems, and possibly the turtles would never learn to curb their own actions or stand up for them selves. Although as a parent I don't think it is wise to let the turtles always let their diffrences go on checked with out some sort of guidanace. My mom recently had to step in between my older sister and I because of an issue between us and we are both adults. I'm just saying that yeah, its good that Splinter lets the turtles solve their problems with each other but its also ok and acceptable to ofer a little guidance even while letting them figure things out on their own.

Also, if Mike wasn't mature enough to just quite while he was ahead, then dosen't that mean he'd have to start taking responsibility? It's tough love.
Say your parents don't tell you not to do something because all the examples of why it's bad are well known and they count on you to be a responsible person and not do it. You end up charged with whatever this is because you were stupid enough to do it but they don't bail you out. Okay, they probably should have told you not to do it rather than count on general knowledge, but since you had that knowledge and crossed the line anyway, it's still your fault. And why should you get any special treatment? I don't see what you mean by that not being the best approach to handling Mike, as it actually worked. Isn't something like Grudge Match going to stick with Mike? I'm assuming given Splinter taught his sons to follow the harder path he also taught them not to toot their own horns, or maybe he just counted on them using common sense or courtesy. But the point is that is what Mike did. Sometimes dramatic examples work the best.

good point, you are absolutley right about this; Mikey is what 16? 17? By around this age you should be responciable for your own actions. I guess just felt (no matter how well deserved) the complete desertion of his entire family (save Leo) was...shocking, and probably hurtful. I know that it was probably the only thing that could have gotten through Mikey's thick cocky head and teach him the lesson about boasting that he deserved, but i still think it came to him as a utter shock that he was able to push his family to a postion where they wouldn't help or even root for him. I mean I understand Raph and Don not wanting too but but Splinter's gleeful (no matter funny it was) refusal to help must have shocked and hurt him. I just think Mikey has such a reliance on his family to back him up that it probably hit him harder than what he showed. Do you think the lesson would have had the same posituive effects on him had leo not been there to help him out? Some I don't think Grudge Match would have had the same results of Mikey learning humilty and ultimately comeing out on top if at least one of his family members hadn't been there for him. Complete dessertion no matter how deserving from your support group is never a very good tactic to teach some one a lesson. And I'm saying that Mikey is so weak that he couldn't have mustered up the courage to win all on his own, I just think that he would have been to shell shocked to really react correctly to benifit. And before we get into "well...if Leo hadn't helped out, Splinter would have probably relented and given Mikey a hand" let me just say that i have a real good feeling that Splinter would have stuck to his guns and not helped Mikey.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Complete dessertion no matter how deserving from your support group is never a very good tactic to teach some one a lesson.

I completely agree, O Sage One. I'm not a huge fan of tough love.

[Spawn Guy]

No one is, but sometimes it is the only option. I agree, complete desertation would be shocking, but considering Mike's behaviour a big shock might be what he needed. And if Splinter is that manipulative, maybe he was counting on Leo to help Mikey out.

Also, I agree. Splinter would have stuck to his guns. I know I would.

Look how it would work out if not for Levram...ian(?) interference:
Mike wins=a victory well earned
Mikey looses=a lesson well learned

Also, no offence, but just because someone dosen't raise someone the way you would does not automaticaly mean they were raised the wrong way.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Spawn Guy

Look how it would work out if not for Levram...ian(?) interference:
Mike wins=a victory well earned
Mikey looses=a lesson well learned

Heh. That's a damn good point.

[Sage Ninja]

I completely agree, O Sage One. I'm not a huge fan of tough love.

well I don't think any one is if you are on the recieving end. But if I was a parent I think I would use tough love if my teen stepped out of line. I mean if you are not tough on your kids when your kid gets out into the real world thwere is gonna be others that would be a whole lot more tough and brutal on them than you would be, but most likely with malice behind their actions.

Originally Posted by Spawn Guy

No one is, but sometimes it is the only option. I agree, complete desertation would be shocking, but considering Mike's behaviour a big shock might be what he needed. And if Splinter is that manipulative, maybe he was counting on Leo to help Mikey out.

Also, I agree. Splinter would have stuck to his guns. I know I would.

I don't think he was counting on it at all, and the fact that Leo did offer him some help was probably just conveniant. I just think that had no one at least offered their support to Mikey in least in word only, I don't think Mikey would have reaped the most positive effects of his lesson and probably just let himself lose. There was a psycholgical blow to him that was more than just hurt pride I think that was why Mikey didn't even seem to try to try to win. As it was even with Leo helping him out Mikey seemed resigned to failure, I think his behavior would have been even more crippled had no one been there for him. And any way, I know Mikey was a serious direspectful jerk but does that really justify even Splinter not even wanting to help him?

I do wonder though why Leo opted to help Mikey out though? I imagine he was as much subjested to Mikey's boastings as the others where, so why did he take the high road and helped him?

Look how it would work out if not for Levram...ian(?) interference:
Mike wins=a victory well earned
Mikey looses=a lesson well learned

A little off topic but i was rather annoyed that the writters made the Levrams the bad guys in this epsode. It pretty much removed all doubt that Mikey would win and even removed the tension of whether or not Mikey had would it took to take Kluh in a non life threatening way. A habit the writters have with Mikey is that he can't seem to crank out the super awsome fighting skills unless there is a life or death situation. All the other turtles can kick butt no matter what.

Also, no offence, but just because someone dosen't raise someone the way you would does not automaticaly mean they were raised the wrong way.

I've said this before and i'll say it again. I'm not putting Slpinter down in any way and i'm not saying I would do things better him!