Was "City at War" the end of ambitious storytelling for Mirage?

[DrSpengler]

I finally finished reading and reviewing "City at War" today and it really got me thinking about where the narrative of the Mirage TMNT went after this big epic finally ended.

Without the Foot Clan as an adversary hanging over their heads, the Turtles didn't have any particular direction to go in. They'd hope from one random adventure to another; beat the bad guy and wait until the next one. There was no longer any satisfying pace, directive or grand scheme.

I think maybe the fact that every single TMNT volume following Vol. 1 got cancelled early on might have had something to do with it, with every succeeding volume starting with a new creative team and a new direction, leaving the old plot threads behind.

Vol. 2 was all Lawson and he was trying to set up events and foreshadow some big stories, only to get canned after 13 issues. Vol. 3 was by Carlson and told some great stories and tried taking characters to new places, but got unceremoniously cancelled and purged from continuity after the fact. Vol. 4 was by Laird and it brought in a huge time skip and initiated new plot threads only to conclude none of them when Laird put the book on hiatus.

Meanwhile, TMNT Vol. 1, the micros and the first volume of Tales can be read as a singular microcosm that tells a complete story about the Turtles and the Foot that comes to a satisfying conclusion and ties up all its loose ends.

In order to keep things going, the stories afterwards undid all the character evolution that occurred during "City at War" and from time to time undid or worked around the truce so as to bring back Foot Clan conflict.

For casual fans, "City at War" is sort of a perfect stopping point, because the stories afterward, while many are very good, few of them offer any satisfaction and there's no longer any overarching conflict or narrative to tie it all together. Just a lot of fluctuating creative teams, character regression, false starts, early stops, prolonged hiatuses and ideas that are never allowed to bear fruit.

Basically, after "City at War", TMNT stops feeling like an indie comic and starts reading like a Big Two superhero comic for all the reasons above.

[snake]

Exactly, I was thinking about this earlier today, there were no "complete" volumes after 1, just failed attempts, that's why mirage continuity is so screwed up, I enjoyed volume 2() and wanted it to continue, well it didnt, and volume 4? Well, that's canned too. And PL telling us volume 3 is non-canon? It's odd, really.
I know look at idw as the definite continuity, even though mirage started it

[Cipher]

Yep.

Well, I don't know about the end of "ambitious" storytelling. Volumes, 2, 3 and 4 all seemed to be tackling slow-burn, character-driven stories in the same way. They just never had a chance to finish.

So it does mark the end of the only really complete narrative in the Mirage series. And that's always been one of my misgivings with the series/universe as a whole.

If you want a complete narrative, you have to stop at "City at War." It provides a wonderful, thematic end to everything that's come before, and, were someone to tell you there were no Turtles stories published after that, you wouldn't feel wanting. Everything afterward is half-finished or unresolved cross-chronological glimpses. And that's too bad.

I still appreciate what came after, mind you, and it's not the creators' faults (well, except Laird's volume 4 burnout). I also have to disagree that it "stops reading like an indie comic and starts reading like the Big Two." Even in its later format, it still has a sense of creator-driven, reflective integrity and an adherence to a single, finite timeline that Marvel and DC never seem comfortable with. Let's not forget that most of the Turtles' aging or confirmation that they drift apart in the future comes from post-"City at War" volumes, and it's some of the most gut-wrenching material in the series. I also have to disagree that later stories undo all the character development in "City at War." It's not air-tight, given the revolving door of underground writers and artists, but a lot of the treads remain consistent.

Still, though, I agree with you. As a story, Turtles starts with Vol. 1 #1 and ends with "City at War." Everything after that is just how far you want to dip your toes in.

Originally Posted by snakeweed101

I know look at idw as the definite continuity, even though mirage started it

That probably sounds tempting, if you want the most coherent A to B narrative, but the degree to which it wears the "Look at what elements we're remixing now!" angle on its sleeve makes that nearly impossible.

[CyberCubed]

Most of Mirage never had a narrative to begin with. Before City at War we had like 25 issues of filler.

The Mirage universe was always the most barren of all the Turtle universes because there was never any grand scheme planned. We got the 3 major Foot Clan stories and that was about it.

Quite frankly the mirage universe was the most random and weirdly paced of all the universes.

[frank_one]

After all, they kill the main villain in the first issue.
Vol.4 was great, so fresh, probably the freshest thing since the very first issues of Vol.1. Laird threw a lot of NEW ideas in those stories and finally the Foot was not a part of it.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Most of Mirage never had a narrative to begin with. Before City at War we had like 25 issues of filler

I believe that the main reason for the failure of the volumes that followed 1 is the fact that they were too ambitious. They all tried to present bigger stories that spanned across the entirety of their run. Vol 1, instead, had little pockets of narrative and a lot of filler in the middle to keep things balanced. It is true that after the truce with the foot, the writers failed to introduce a new threat that was menacing enough to link everything back together. But that is probably due to lack of imagination, not of ambition (I'm may be being a bit to harsh here, I use the word imagination for lack of a better term)

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Martinf

I believe that the main reason for the failure of the volumes that followed 1 is the fact that they were too ambitious. They all tried to present bigger stories that spanned across the entirety of their run. Vol 1, instead, had little pockets of narrative and a lot of filler in the middle to keep things balanced. It is true that after the truce with the foot, the writers failed to introduce a new threat that was menacing enough to link everything back together. But that is probably due to lack of imagination, not of ambition (I'm may be being a bit to harsh here, I use the word imagination for lack of a better term)

Look at the difference between Mirage and Archie or IDW TMNT.

The Archie and IDW series had continuing story arcs that weaved in and out of larger story arcs...and then before you knew it you had this huge universe with many characters and interlocking storylines.

Archie and IDW continually build upon what comes before, and that's why Archie was so well loved as it got into its run and why the IDW series is hitting its stride.

Mirage didn't have this and there was no direction in the series for a long time.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The Mirage universe was always the most barren of all the Turtle universes because there was never any grand scheme planned.

I guess I'm left postulating what "grand scheme" you think TPTB had in mind for either the Fred Wolf series, the Archie series, or the movie series. All were devoid of any such thing.

The only universe that has ever seemed to have ever been either containing a cohesive story arc throughout its duration or allowed to come to an end on its own terms was the 4Kids series, and even then there was no "grand scheme" but rather a series of rolling with the creative punches until there was no more runway.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I guess I'm left postulating what "grand scheme" you think TPTB had in mind for either the Fred Wolf series, the Archie series, or the movie series. All were devoid of any such thing.

And yet they always felt like they had a natural flow, more so than Mirage by leaps and bounds.

And the 4Kids show didnt really go out on it's own terms, it had it's identity completly reshaped and it was drained of it's edgyness. I'd say the old 'toon managed to come out looking more accomplished than it because everything was going in a forward direction, rather than backwards.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I guess I'm left postulating what "grand scheme" you think TPTB had in mind for either the Fred Wolf series, the Archie series, or the movie series. All were devoid of any such thing.

The only universe that has ever seemed to have ever been either containing a cohesive story arc throughout its duration or allowed to come to an end on its own terms was the 4Kids series, and even then there was no "grand scheme" but rather a series of rolling with the creative punches until there was no more runway.

The Mirage universe was still mostly a, "slice of life," story. Other than the major Foot Clan arcs and some of the Triceraton stuff....everything else was just random and wacky adventures.

Even in Volume 4, all the plotlines are fairly random and don't add to anything. Don being shrunk and meeting mutant lizards, Raph fighting vampires and transforming, Mike being kidnapped and taken to outer space, Leonardo fighting Warriors from another dimension who are killing Foot, etc.

The same thing is in Tales. The turtles would fight some random monster or alien (but not mutant, because in PL's mind a monster is different than a mutant...for some reason), and it would end right there.

I will agree the Image series tried to change this though.

[Dirty Blond]

Incomplete Volumes (II, III and IV)? Random characters? Non-canonical filler? Stories that go nowhere?

And this is the vaunted source material.

[CyberCubed]

Volume 2 wasn't incomplete, it just ended early. There were no loose storylines going at the time, and anything that was, was followed up in Tales V. 2.

[snake]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Volume 2 wasn't incomplete, it just ended early. There were no loose storylines going at the time, and anything that was, was followed up in Tales V. 2.

Wouldn't that make it incomplete? It clearly intended to go on longer.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I'd say the old 'toon managed to come out looking more accomplished than it because everything was going in a forward direction, rather than backwards.

How? And tell me of this forward direction you believe existed in the Fred Wolf series.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by snakeweed101

Wouldn't that make it incomplete? It clearly intended to go on longer.

But what I mean was it wasn't canceled in the middle of a story. If you read #13 it pretty much has an ending.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

How? And tell me of this forward direction you believe existed in the Fred Wolf series.

By forward direction, he means they started trying to copy more popular shows like Batman TAS.

Emphasis on trying.

[Dirty Blond]

The conclusion to Volume II wasn't what you would call naturally occurring. It ended because Mirage didn't want to carry on with the title itself. Image took over and they dropped it. Then Laird petered out on Volume IV.

An honest reflection of this book shows how flaky the main series is after City at War.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by Dirty Blond

An honest reflection of this book shows how flaky the main series is after City at War.

One could argue that it was flaky before City at War too. But that's the way the it's always been, I mean let's go back to issue one, they never though there would be a follow up to it. They just did a one comic for the hell of it and ended up with something ginormous in their hands. If you read the annotations in the Ultimate collection that IDW has been putting out, it clearly says at some point "we were writing the stories we wanted to read". It basically came down to what was fun for them at the time rather than careful thinking, and it actually made sense since they didn't know for how long the book would be running. Then guest writers started showing up and things got a bit out of control story-wise (Pete basically declared half the run as non-canon).

This is a very lazy summation of vol 1 (shout-out to harold lillja) but I think the point I'm trying to get across is clear enough.

[Matches Malone]

It was certainly the end of an era, definitely. Not sure what you mean by "starts to read like the big two," though. Mirage certainly didn't seem to be too inclined to censor themselves post CaW. Plus, the black & white art will always feel indie.

It's possible it was the end of fully realized ambitious storytelling since, as you pointed out, no big story arc has ever fully concluded since. One could argue Volume 2 concludes, as CyberCubed has, but it was also intended to be an ongoing series. It just happened to have enough time to make a proper conclusion for its current arc. Still, you can't say Mirage ceased to be ambitious just because outside circumstances end up cutting things short of the effort of those who were trying. It's just a shame. I would actually say Mirage was ambitious to the very end, if it really has reached the end. Re-energized, Laird attempted to separate our turtles and challenge them to live individual lives in Volume 4. And Tales Vol. 2 let creators run rampant, so to speak, bringing all kinds of interesting angles to the different points of Mirage continuity. It never felt like things became predictable and safe after "City At War," it was just less successful.

It always just makes me woeful that business and success took Eastman & Laird away from the series just as they were getting a handle on TMNT story and artwise, leaving us with just two more story arcs (RTNY and CaW) instead of a solid 5 years worth of stories.

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

It was certainly the end of an era, definitely. Not sure what you mean by "starts to read like the big two," though. Mirage certainly didn't seem to be too inclined to censor themselves post CaW. Plus, the black & white art will always feel indie.

I'll clarify what I meant when I said "read like a Big Two comic".

When I think of Indie comics, I think of books that are creator owned and have a narrative vision set forth by the creator that they seek to complete. Bone, Cerebus... they all tell these complete, self contained stories and are unimpeded by any sort of editorial meddling (because the creators ARE the editors).

Ignoring the "guest issues", I felt that Vol. 1-Microseries-Tales Vol. 1 had that same vibe of a direction set forth, followed through and met with closure.

But afterward, TMNT met with the sort of setbacks I associate more with Big Two superhero titles than I do with creator owned Indie titles.

Mainly, the constant creative team change-ups and how each new creative team undoes or ignores what was set forth by the last and we end up with a lot of "one step forward, two steps back". And that's not getting into stuff like constant volume renumbering.

It lost a unified creative control and direct narrative vision, leaving the series to spin around in circles and never really achieve anything because of all the staff shake-ups (as pointed out, Vol. 2 ended it's arc, but there was still so much more foreshadowed to be said). It suffered from the same setbacks we perceive as "editorial meddling" now n days when we look at Big Two comics (especially the New 52 DC universe, yeeesh).

Admittedly, Vol. 1 was definitely a case of "making it up as they go along" and may not have had Leo/#10 - RTNY - CAW planned as a milestone-to-milestone narrative structure from the very beginning, but it turned out that way and winds up reading like a complete and total, focused narrative (again, once you remove all the "guest" stuff).

You're definitely right that a lack of "ambition" isn't the right word. A lack of "focus" might be a better descriptor or perhaps a lack of "follow-thru".

We have this tight, complete narrative in Vol. 1/Micros/Tales Vol. 1 and everything afterward is just a lot of random "stuff". Some good, some bad, but always trying to go in ten different directions at once and ultimately not going ANYWHERE.