Star Wars Episode 8

[Spike Spiegel]

And come to think of it... wait a minute. We saw Kylo WITH the Knights of Ren in the TFA flashback, destroying the Jedi temple, didn't we?

The flashbacks in TLJ, we see Luke contemplating killing Kylo, Kylo bringing down his bedroom onto Luke, and Luke emerging from the bedroom's rubble to see the temple destroyed.

That can't be right. Where did the Knights of Ren come from? Surely they weren't already there at the temple, and it wouldn't be like Kylo would already have his costume.

They don't need to explain anything because they know people will buy tickets to the next one anyway.

[sdp]

I have seen a lot of "All the negative/mixed reviews are trolls/payed", the excuses are straight out of FAKE news articles on how to subdue and change the narrative of what is happening.


And come to think of it... wait a minute. We saw Kylo WITH the Knights of Ren in the TFA flashback, destroying the Jedi temple, didn't we?

Yes, the Knights of Ren seem to have all but been forgotten, even C-3PO's red arm at least have a comic explaining it.

Also am I the only one who thinks it was stupid that Snoke makes fun of Kylo's helmet and so he destroys it and now he just won't be using it?

Ugh. why did they give him a helmet at all?

[NinjaPug]

And come to think of it... wait a minute. We saw Kylo WITH the Knights of Ren in the TFA flashback, destroying the Jedi temple, didn't we?

The flashbacks in TLJ, we see Luke contemplating killing Kylo, Kylo bringing down his bedroom onto Luke, and Luke emerging from the bedroom's rubble to see the temple destroyed.

That can't be right. Where did the Knights of Ren come from? Surely they weren't already there at the temple, and it wouldn't be like Kylo would already have his costume.

I didn't think Rey's Force vision of the KoR in TFA was at the Jedi temple. It was stupid to include them at all in TFA since all we got was the throwaway line about them and the quick scene of them with no context. They didn't even explain the Ren surname associated with joining the group.

I bet JJ brings them back in some way for IX since they were ignored in TLJ.

[Shark_Blade]

Ugh. why did they give him a helmet at all?

To look cool. Cause he's a Vader fanboy desperately following his footsteps, so he wanted his own helmet too.

[Andrew NDB]

There is parts of 8 where it seemed like Johnson cast shade on Abrams.

Helmet? Stupid, let's get rid of it.
Snoke? No clue, let's get rid of him.
Phasma? How dumb, I'll just kill her again and show how dumb she is.
Rey giving Luke the lightsaber? What a dumb cliffhanger. I'll just have him throw it away.
Knights of Who? Don't need them.
General Hux? What a lame character. I want a scene to show just how lame he is.

[Sumac]

To look cool. Cause he's a Vader fanboy desperately following his footsteps, so he wanted his own helmet too.
Never liked his helmet.
On the other hand, it's still better than his face.

Movies have always been political.
Not to degree, when you have a good reasons to dislike them, some people instantly proclaim you to be bigot and troll.

[dl316bh]

not to the insane levels of recent years...
The original Star Wars was almost literally "scrappy underdogs fight space nazi's" and essentially championed rebelling against authority and shat on authoritarianism (f***, the prequels are half about the political downfall of the Republic and an attempt to show Democracy die in this universe to authoritarianism and how that could happen). How many Godzilla movies are anti-pollution and nuke? The entire Dirty Harry series, as well as other similar series like Death Wish, exists because of crackdowns on police behavior at one point and some people who made films deciding they didn't like that, so they glorified violent vigilantism of people outside the cops, showing the cops are magically ineffective to boot, doing what the cops couldn't and it doesn't matter if that's scary because they're doing what's right, man, which is shooting people. How many films in history have other countries fail to stop a threat only for America to be the one true heroes of the day, the sole rescuers of humanity? Rocky IV was literally "American is beaten down by a Russian, but keeps getting back up and defeats the Russian in Russia and gets Russia to cheer him" in the middle of the Cold War and it was not alone in that time period. Rambo was basically a film about police brutality, PTSD and the mistreatment of soldiers coming home from war by the government (a problem we NEVER fixed) and, in the context of 'Nam, the hippies who were against the war and spat on them. If I remember right, right wing outlets at the time didn't like the Iron Giant because of how it referred to guns and the dim look it took on Cold War paranoia. Every single cyberpunk story you've ever read or watched is a technophobic cautionary tale about unlimited corporate power, the good and bad possibilities of technology and how technology alone cannot save us.

The vast, vast majority of stories are political in SOME way, or will be interpreted that way, because they're made by people with personal politics and viewpoints. Maybe the politics are big or small, but they're there if you want to look. Times change, so the culture of the time changes to something different, the context fades and not everyone remembers what influenced something or why they came out the way they did. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Sorry to dump text on you, I just find the notion that movies are suddenly more political or influenced by them silly. A lot of stories are born out of it. Even the mindless action flicks you turn your brain off for generally have something going on.

Not to degree, when you have a good reasons to dislike them, some people instantly proclaim you to be bigot and troll.
That's not a recent phenomenon. If social media existed in all the decades prior to when it did, things would be no different. Hell, it would be worse in some eras. The difference is that back then your exposure was to who you knew, reviews and maybe, like, op-ed columns.

There is parts of 8 where it seemed like Johnson cast shade on Abrams.
This is funny when you realize Abrams is supposedly back for IX now.

[Sumac]

snip
No-one argues with that.

Though it doesn't mean that if some people dislike movie, they immediately should written of as a bigots, fanboys and so on. Also, I don't see why every discussion should treat this stuff like a super SeRiouS BuSiNesS.

[snake]

Wow, this was f*cking awful. I've been in a SW induced depression for 2 days now because of this sh*tfest.

[dl316bh]

Though it doesn't mean that if some people dislike movie, they immediately should written of as a bigots, fanboys and so on. Also, I don't see why every discussion should treat this stuff like a super SeRiouS BuSiNesS.
I mainly balk at the idea it's at all recent. It's not. It's gone on since the internet started up and you had the first bulletin boards. When you have direct contact with more people with opposing opinions, some are going to butt heads and some will just be dicks. Like in real life. I've been on or lurked on a lot of forums like this, back when forums were still popular, and you'd get legendary flame wars. The only thing that's changed is venue, where nerd wars are on social media now.

If you want to argue that's bad, well, sure, I won't disagree that it sucks stuff can boil down to that, but that either requires policing - and hell, even moderators on forums couldn't keep a complete handle on it in the big forum days - or the internet going away, and it's a little late to put that genie back in the bottle.

[Sumac]

If you want to argue that's bad, well, sure, I won't disagree that it sucks stuff can boil down to that, but that either requires policing - and hell, even moderators on forums couldn't keep a complete handle on it in the big forum days - or the internet going away, and it's a little late to put that genie back in the bottle.
This IS bad, because it unnecessary polarizes, divides and angers people for the pettiest of reasons - personal taste.

I'd prefer policing to evade this, but since more often than not moderators are not exempt from being on one side or another, this won't happen. :tcry:

[dl316bh]

This IS bad, because it unnecessary polarizes, divides and angers people for the pettiest of reasons - personal taste.

I'd prefer policing to evade this, but since more often than not moderators are not exempt from being on one side or another, this won't happen. :tcry:
I might just be used to it, because my family finally got us on the internet in, like, 2000, so I was involved in the days of forums and just kind of grew to understand this was just what happened, which is why, once I realized that, I stepped back, especially in the social media era. I haven't used Facebook more than once every six months for years now and I pulled back from Twitter late last year, only going on once or twice a week, mainly to comment on wrestling. I have a group of close friends - met on forums, in fact - that we talk everyday on Discord about different things and that's all the discussion I need.

I guess the only real option is for social media to take abuse seriously and actually have consequences when it's reported, but that's a can of worms they've done their damndest to avoid opening and have been lackadaisical about. I mean, that would cut down a lot. Otherwise, there's not much else you can do. You can't really moderate platforms as large as, say, Twitter the way forums used to be.

[sdp]

Have you guys been looking at some of the interviews with Mark Hamill, he seems to not be happy with the direction the Sequel Trilogy went either. It's hard to tell if he's just being sarcastic or if he actually means some of the things he says but some seem to be really honest comments.

What depressed me the most is he mentions how they had all signed on for the Sequel Trilogy and just a few months later they get the news that Disney bought it and they changed all the original ideas. He also mentions how he hated he didn't get a scene with Han and Leia together among other stuff about things changing or not being written how he would like to, especially since TFA made a lot of money.


I mainly balk at the idea it's at all recent.

But it is, we didn't see this level of "toxicity" from people who disagree with others, everyone now goes to their safe echo chambers and comes up with crazy excuses as to why things aren't going according to what they feel should be.

[dl316bh]

Have you guys been looking at some of the interviews with Mark Hamill, he seems to not be happy with the direction the Sequel Trilogy went either. It's hard to tell if he's just being sarcastic or if he actually means some of the things he says but some seem to be really honest comments.

What depressed me the most is he mentions how they had all signed on for the Sequel Trilogy and just a few months later they get the news that Disney bought it and they changed all the original ideas. He also mentions how he hated he didn't get a scene with Han and Leia together among other stuff about things changing or not being written how he would like to, especially since TFA made a lot of money.
I haven't seen that interview, but yeah, I have seen Mark Hammil talk about how he isn't pleased with where the new trilogy has gone. I think it's him being honest. He generally has been when it comes to all of this and he's pretty protective of the character of Luke. I think it was relatively recently that he mentioned how upset he was, all those years ago, about the Wampa scene of Empire, because he felt Luke wouldn't lop the creatures arm off.

But it is, we didn't see this level of "toxicity" from people who disagree with others, everyone now goes to their safe echo chambers and comes up with crazy excuses as to why things aren't going according to what they feel should be.
I guess we'll agree to disagree. *shrug*

[Vegita-San]

This IS bad, because it unnecessary polarizes, divides and angers people for the pettiest of reasons - personal taste.

I'd prefer policing to evade this, but since more often than not moderators are not exempt from being on one side or another, this won't happen. :tcry:

yep, moderators are just as apt to call one troll as the people you are asking for help from....cause somewhere along the way, they made up their mind about 'one side' or 'the other' and switched.

that's why I Think it's RECENTLY gotten really bad. objectivity is long gone for the most part.

[Sumac]

snip
I don't have social media stuff for the same reason - I have enough bad news and idiots around, as is.

My opinion, is that communities should police themselves to keep themselves healthy and friendly, but instead they double down on extreme points of view and turn into echo chambers.

Not a new thing, obviously, but nowadays, it has become really toxic, where every discussion turns into shitslinging contest, who will utter more "popular" insults at each other and who will start comparing people to Nazis first for any reason.

[snake]

I unironically want to die. SW was the only thing keeping me going and I can't handle the death of the entire franchise because that c*nt Kathleen Kennedy hates white males and Luke. There's no coming back from this sh*tfest. SW is ruined for good this time. I don't want to live in this world anymore.

If it weren't for the fact that my family would be destroyed, I'd have killed myself months ago, but I was always holding out hope that TLJ would be good and I'd get to see Luke redeem himself. F*ck it, assisted suicide should be legal. I need out.

[dl316bh]

Real Question: The hell they not gonna get Billy Dee Williams back and throw some Lando in? They got everyone else.

[sdp]

Yeah, I mentioned that a while back in the thread, where's Lando? We need him.

Does anyone think that Leia should've died in this movie? I know after Carrie died Lucasfilm quickly said they wouldn't kill her off in VIII and people were happy but if we look at it this film was perfect to have her die, it would've been easy to implement and fit nicely. I don't know what they'll do in IX, they said they wouldn't CG her, so unless they only mention her by name and never show her or kill her off screen it's going to be a bit messy when things could've been smoother in this movie.

[dl316bh]

Yeah, I mentioned that a while back in the thread, where's Lando? We need him.
Oh, sorry. Didn't read the whole thread. I just find it weird that the dude hasn't even been mentioned, apparently. I liked Lando a lot. Would have loved him to have a role in these if you're bringing the old guard back.

Does anyone think that Leia should've died in this movie? I know after Carrie died Lucasfilm quickly said they wouldn't kill her off in VIII and people were happy but if we look at it this film was perfect to have her die, it would've been easy to implement and fit nicely. I don't know what they'll do in IX, they said they wouldn't CG her, so unless they only mention her by name and never show her or kill her off screen it's going to be a bit messy when things could've been smoother in this movie.
They're between a rock and a hard place there, yeah. It seems like this whole new trilogy was meant as a passing of the torch from movie to movie and it sounds like their original plans would cap that with IX. Han with VII, Luke with VIII and Leia with IX. Now they'll have to change everything and yeah, they'll have to write her off. Which sucks, but was unfortunately a risk. They probably should have just done it here, but they probably thought that would come off as disrespectful or something.

[ranger_scout]

It was another thrilling episode of this series. I liked how the very beginning:

didn't exactly pick-up where The Force Awakens had ended.It was cool to have a big battle up in space. Luke throwing the light-saber away as soon as Rey give it to him was funny. I was expecting Snoke to live past the episode like Darth Sidious. So, now Ben/Kylo Ren is the leader of the First Order. I loved seeing Yoda again! That was so epic! Luke's reunion with R2-D2 was really sweet. There also really couldn't have been a better way for Luke to go out the way he did. However, just like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda I wouldn't at all be surprised if his spirit appeared.

There are still a lot of questions as to what will happen next since:

Leia didn't die in the film. It looked like as if she did though during that scene where that part of the ship she was on got destroyed. It seemed that since she reunited with Luke before he died that she was going to fully see her son again in the next one and then her character's journey would've ended there. I have confidence that they will come up with the best way to write Leia out of the series even though Carrie Fisher is no longer with us.

[Krutch]

Alright, just came back from seeing it a second time.

Here’s my more thorough thoughts.

Spoilers ahead.

Here’s the thing about this movie. It has little to no interest in following up on any of the questions introduced by JJ in TFA. Who’s Snoke? Doesn’t matter. Who’s Rey’s parents? Nobody. How did Maz get Luke’s lightsaber? Why did R2D2 magically reawaken? Why did Luke hide a map inside R2 if he didn't want to be found? Who knows and who cares. The films mantra seems to be “let the past die”, which numerous characters state throughout the bloated runtime. The thing is, each time the film presents an opportunity to do so, it undercuts itself and reverts back to status quo.

Rey and Ben team up to form a new order separate from the Resistance and First Order? Bold choice! I’m on boar-oh, wait… Rey’s back with the Resistance and Kylo’s commanding the First Order.

Killing off Finn in the second movie? Bold choice! I’m on boar-oh, wait… Nope, Rose took that choice away from him. Everyone survives.

Kylo resists killing off Leia only to have his stormtroopers deliver the killing blow instead, forever haunting him if he could have done something? Bold choice! I’m on boar-oh, wait… Nope, there she goes, Mary Poppinsing her way to safety.

Yoda burns down the remains of the Jedi temple, cementing the end of the Jedi and ushering in a new age? Bold choice! I'm on boar-oh, wait... Rey took the books with her.

The worst sin the film commits, in direct contradiction of it’s message, is it basically ends up in more or less the same place it began. Sure, Luke and Snoke are gone, but they had little significance in TFA to begin with. Rey is still on the light side, Ben is still conflicted and on the dark side, Rey & Finn’s relationship didn’t move an inch, we still don’t know jack about who Snoke was, The First Order still has the upper hand like in the beginning of TFA, and Luke never even left the island.

And please correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t think of a single character in this movie who really achieves their intended goal. Kylo wants to turn Rey, Rey wants to turn Kylo, neither succeed. Poe wants to stage a mutiny, fails. Finn and Rose want to find the master codebreaker, fails. Then they want to sabotage the ships tracking device, fail at that as well. Then they want destroy the battering ram machine, fail at that. Phasma wants to kill Finn, dies (again) trying. Leia wants to save the Resistance, but by the end there’s so few left they can all fit on the Falcon, so, I wouldn’t call that a win. Hux wants to wipe out the last of the Resistance, they get away. Snoke wants to kill Rey, gets himself killed. I guess Luke’s goal to delay the First Order works, so that’s something, I guess. But this whole trilogy is a result of his failure of training Ben, so…

I’m not going to get into plotholes, leaps of logic, and how pointless and uninteresting Finn and Rose’s side quest was because, well, that's already been well covered.

Sidenote 1: Did anyone else feel that Leia should have been the one to stay on the ship to lightspeed kamikaze the First Order? It even felt perfectly set up for it when she says “I can’t take another loss.” Then moving forward you can have Vice Admiral Holdo in place trying to live up to Leia’s legacy. This would also line up with the “let the past die” mantra the film so wants us to embrace.

Sidenote 2: This may not be exactly PC to bring up, but anyone happen to notice the background actors? Watch again. The ratio is 50 percent women, 40 percent aliens, and 10 percent men. It’s not a bad thing, just a distracting thing seeing such a blatant agenda on full display. Kathleen Kennedy’s not exactly subtle in her approach.

Sidenote 3: Regarding the last shot of the movie… The movie insists the events on Crait will somehow have a ripple effect across the universe. Luke even says “The Rebellion is reborn today.” Poe also has a line about being the spark that will light the fire which will bring the First Order down. Can someone clarify how anything that happened was supposed to inspire hope? I mean, should that not have happened at the end of TFA when the First Order’s mega weapon was destroyed? How is having the Resistance dwindled down to under 100 people after all their allies refused to show up supposed to inspire hope?

Don’t get me wrong, there’s quite a bit of nice moments in the movie, too.

Everything involving Luke/Rey/Ben I liked (minus the constant flashbacks.)
Loved Luke’s brushing dirt off his shoulder.
Loved that Rey’s parents are nobodies (my hope was that or she’s a Palpatine, so I’m happy I got my wish…for now.)
Liked the fake-out Force hologram reveal.
I liked Rose’s sentimental (if cheesy) “We’ll win this war not by fighting the ones we hate, but by saving the ones we love” moment.
I liked seeing the Force used in new ways.
I liked seeing Poe get more screen time this time around.

I think it’d only take a couple tweaks here and there and this could have been a really special movie. As it stands, it’s just frustrating. For every exciting choice it presents, it’s gun shy nature quickly resets to the status quo and I’m left wondering only "what if?”

[newfan]

No I don't didn't think Leia should have died in this movie, okay you may expect her to have stayed behind, but it's Leia, I cared less about the other character...and weren't there enough deaths with Han and Luke already. I think they may likely have killed her in the next one though, I wonder if we'll know what they had planned to do with her.

R2D2 suddenly woke up because there was finally news of finding Luke, he shut down after Luke went away...

Hamil didn't even know he wouldn't be in the first movie while he was doing all of his training (from a TV show where he guested on Friday)

Just a thought with Rey, are we supposed to assume she did a lot of training we didn't see with Luke? Just, Luke was barely a full Jedi in ROJ, yet Rey seems to be a self made one, is that part of her all powerful arc?

[Andrew NDB]

People forget the timeline of events. George sat Carrie and Mark and Harrison down for dinner and told them he's doing 7-9 and asked them if they're down, revealing to them his general outline. They were. Then he sold to Disney. Then as part of the deal with Disney (mandated by Disney) George had to actually flesh out and deliver them his outline (their terms, not his). He did. Ardnt wrote his 7 script based on Lucas' 7 outline... and then Disney said "Whoa! Too much like prequels!" And in comes Abrams with the remake hammer.

The rest is history. Sad!

[Shark_Blade]

Pretty interesting discussion.

cL5oCP0VIEI

Yeah all the issues people raised are very valid and I can see why people are pissed. I still have a soft spot for it though, maybe because it has Luke and Leia('s last performance in it).

Finn and Poe, they kinda have this bromance going on earlier in TFA. It's pretty subtle things like the eyes movement, body gestures, like they really care for each other very much. In TLJ it's all thrown out the window - they literally have zero chemistry. They just brushed off each other in their storyline (Finn going Rey where's Rey Rey Rey, and Poe going BB8! Wtf) like they don't give a damn at all. Disappointed.

Also like someone's already mentioned, it's pretty clear there's no repercussion much in this film, they're pretty much where they left off at TFA. Who's gonna be the main villain in the third movie? Kylo again? Lol can't take him seriously. He's not even intimidating, got beaten by a newbie Jedi I just can't with this mess. :tlol:

[Sumac]

People forget the timeline of events. George sat Carrie and Mark and Harrison down for dinner and told them he's doing 7-9 and asked them if they're down, revealing to them his general outline. They were. Then he sold to Disney. Then as part of the deal with Disney (mandated by Disney) George had to actually flesh out and deliver them his outline (their terms, not his). He did. Ardnt wrote his 7 script based on Lucas' 7 outline... and then Disney said "Whoa! Too much like prequels!" And in comes Abrams with the remake hammer.

The rest is history. Sad!
Is there any information about his ideas for Sequel Trilogy?

[newfan]

I'd be interested to know what his outline was.

I wish the gap between ROJ and the sequels hadn't been so big, I know George was always going to do the prequels first from what I've heard but had he scrapped the idea of doing any more movies at some point? (given the time gaps between them all)

As for Sharkblades post, yeah they make some good points.

[plastroncafe]

Finn and Poe, they kinda have this bromance going on earlier in TFA. It's pretty subtle things like the eyes movement, body gestures, like they really care for each other very much. In TLJ it's all thrown out the window - they literally have zero chemistry. They just brushed off each other in their storyline (Finn going Rey where's Rey Rey Rey, and Poe going BB8! Wtf) like they don't give a damn at all. Disappointed.


Finn being all about Rey makes sense, at least to me. The last thing he remembers is falling at the hands of Kylo, and knowing that left Rey alone.
Where as Poe got all that interim time, where things have gotten a lot more dire. They were on the offensive in TFA, but they're on the defensive in TLJ.

No time for love, Dr. Jones.

[sdp]

I'm surprised by the negativity this movie is getting, it really doesn't do anything wrong that Episode VII didn't do. I was sure people were going to love it. I know the opinion of VII changed a lot in the last two years but I truly expected people to be all over it. I remember how Episode II & III were considered "amazing, Lucas redeemed Star Wars" when they first came out as well and it took some time before the new movie high wore off. I hope Disney listens.

Also I don't want to start a endlessly toxic Vegita/Plastron debate but yeah these movies are being politicized heavily by FAKE geek news blogs, all I did was read some Mark Hammill interviews and now google was suggesting articles like these:
Toxic Masculinity Is the True Villain of Star Wars: The Last Jedi
(http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269657/toxic-masculinity-is-the-true-villain-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi) Den of Geek
Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017
(https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women) Vanity Fair

Divisive Clickbait FTW, crap like this is is why most topics end up turning political when people just want to enjoy entertainment.




Rey and Ben team up to form a new order separate from the Resistance and First Order? Bold choice! I’m on boar-oh, wait… Rey’s back with the Resistance and Kylo’s commanding the First Order.



I agree with many of your points, but especially this one, I was so excited during these whole scene, like "THIS IS STAR WARS" during these whole scene, they were really taking things a new direction, we now had Kylo/Rey working on the same side, but are they the bad guys? the good guys? The end of the past/jedi/sith/rebels/empire for something new? Wow, we're going a new direction, this is awe-

Oh no, we're back to Empire vs Rebels.


Finn and Poe, they kinda have this bromance going on earlier in TFA.
To be fair the "bromance" was most likely just something they didn't realize but fans really noticed and made it a meme. There was a little Bromance in the beginning of the film, though I agree that they completely ignore most things, even BB-8, scratch that, especially BB-8. Droids always played a huge part in Star Wars.

Poe was ok in TFA but he didn't get a lot of screen time, now that we had a lot of Poe, I wish we hadn't Rey/Finn were far more interesting. They try really hard to sell him "He's a Rebel" "That's why I like him" ugh. Any of the rebels from Rogue One are much better characters.

They were on the offensive in TFA, but they're on the defensive in TLJ.


But why? The First Order was apparently this "empire lite" in TFA who were going to "go big" with their mega weapon and be a threat again but in that same movie their big weapon is destroyed. And yet somehow now the Republic is the underdog and the Empi- I mean First Order is again in control of almost everything? What?

[TigerClaw]

Here's Cinemassacre's review.

DE5BwvaX-Ng

[plastroncafe]

I mainly balk at the idea it's at all recent. It's not. It's gone on since the internet started up and you had the first bulletin boards. When you have direct contact with more people with opposing opinions, some are going to butt heads and some will just be dicks. Like in real life. I've been on or lurked on a lot of forums like this, back when forums were still popular, and you'd get legendary flame wars. The only thing that's changed is venue, where nerd wars are on social media now.

If you want to argue that's bad, well, sure, I won't disagree that it sucks stuff can boil down to that, but that either requires policing - and hell, even moderators on forums couldn't keep a complete handle on it in the big forum days - or the internet going away, and it's a little late to put that genie back in the bottle.

Exactly.
But there's another thing to consider: The mainstreaming of fandom and all things geek.

The toxicity we're seeing now was always there, it's just it usually had a much smaller venue. And those venues were considered safe spaces so long as you agreed with the dominant paradigm. For the longest time it was gold-star gatekeeping geeks who got to control what that paradigm was.
And now they don't.
And they are not happy about that.

You can see it in the video game world.
For years video game fandom wanted to be taken seriously, and wanted their medium of choice to be viewed as art.
And now it is...and there's a very vocal portion of that fandom who really does not like all the side effects of that legitimacy.

Things like deconstructive media criticism.

At the end of the day the stories we make, and how we make them, say something about us as creators and our culture as a whole. We affect the media as much as it effects us.

To be blunt, geeks are sore winners.
We're not shoved into lockers anymore, but instead of being better people...we're just go around shoving other people into lockers because we can. And we think that they deserve it, because people did it to us first.

[Sumac]

Those articles...
Some people really trying to turn everything to fuel for their agenda, by brainfarting some ridiculous stuff.

And then they are surprised, why people are divided and aggressive...

[Vegita-San]

Those articles...
Some people really trying to turn everything to fuel for their agenda, by brainfarting some ridiculous stuff.

And then they are surprised, why people are divided and aggressive...

Yep. exactly.

It's the curse of geek things becoming more popular. the People who arn't really interested in things geek (I.e.Fake Geeks), but only into it because it's the current popular thing...are trying to turn it into something it's not.

and then they wonder why the older crowd, the ones they shun because something they used to like is turning into something totally different, get upset.

look at all the political crap berlanti is putting into their shows now. It went from a fun super hero series like Flash, to all kinds of agendas being inserted.
now I barely feel like watching flash anymore. because the casuals are driving things more and more away from what made the medium so good in the first place.

ugh.

[Spike Spiegel]

I
Also I don't want to start a endlessly toxic Vegita/Plastron debate but yeah these movies are being politicized heavily by FAKE geek news blogs, all I did was read some Mark Hammill interviews and now google was suggesting articles like these:
Toxic Masculinity Is the True Villain of Star Wars: The Last Jedi
(http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269657/toxic-masculinity-is-the-true-villain-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi) Den of Geek
Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017
(https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women) Vanity Fair



https://i.imgur.com/14pDVr1.gif

[Sumac]

Yep. exactly.

It's the curse of geek things becoming more popular. the People who arn't really interested in things geek (I.e.Fake Geeks), but only into it because it's the current popular thing...are trying to turn it into something it's not.
It's basically analogue of people who are starting listening to some artist because this artist is popular at the moment, even though, they previously didn't have any interest in genre and abandon it as soon as will not be considered "en vogue".

I am not talking about representation or some other stuff, but about desire to turn everything into something to their liking at the expensive of the people who previously liked it. And then call those people "horrible", when they disagree with it. And then be surprised why those people become overly protective of the franchises.
What a riddle, really!! :roll:

[dl316bh]

I'm surprised by the negativity this movie is getting
I'm not, for reasons relating to the content of the film and reasons outside of it.

Keep in mind I haven't seen it quite yet - probably going this week, because a friend insists I see it enough he's actually buying me a freaking ticket despite having skipped Force Awakens and Rogue One both in theaters - but I've been spoiled to high heaven about it.

But with that in mind, it sounds like The Last Jedi is about letting the old fall away, which was never going to sit well with hardcore fans.

The film apparently takes the Jedi and its religion to task for failing to stop the evil of the galaxy and declares it an institution that needs to die. Not only that, but for kind of fostering the big split between light and dark. All of which is true in the context of the seven prior films. That's not going to go over well for obvious reasons. Even less for others. I'm betting some are subconsciously taking it as an attack on the concept of religion itself; if they are, that's probably going to be a right media talking point in the near future if there's a slow news week, which is rare these days, but hey.

It sounds like a condemnation of clinging too tightly to the past - which is funny considering what Force Awakens ended up being - which is going to put some people on the defensive because they probably feel like the movie is talking to them directly and they don't like what they're hearing.

I could go on given what I've heard, but it sounds like it more or less burned the house down regarding sacred Star Wars stuff. It deconstructed Star Wars and while that's been done before in, like, KOTOR II, that wasn't film canon, did not have lasting impact on the direction of the franchise and was, frankly, a bit niche so it got away without backlash to collect it's cult classic status and love.

There's also the fact that the bloom is off the rose now and it's the third Star Wars film in three years. Some people scoff at the idea of getting "Star Wars fatigue", or did at the start, but I've seen several admit "geez, I'm just not that excited about it anymore". I don't know how widespread that is yet, it's anecdotal, but the longer this schedule goes on the more it probably happens. It's different from things like the Marvel movies, because Star Wars always has the gigantic marketing campaign and is almost inescapable - I've seen R2-D2 and C-3PO on bottled water of all things - so for half of every given year, you're getting blitzed and it really does get old. It's like having a song you like play on the radio over and over again while you get progressively sick of it, a phenomenon that's happened to all of us, I think.

You also just kind of can't recapture the lightning in a bottle. The prequels were a gigantic event the likes of which we haven't seen before, the first time Star Wars came back in twenty years, and you can't really replicate that first return or the blind fan love that comes with it. Especially not just ten years later. It took three years for people to start turning on Phantom Menace for not being what they wanted, even more before it became common opinion. Force Awakens took months. Rogue One took weeks. The Last Jedi days. To be honest, even if they put out the best Star Wars film ever, I don't think there's ever going to be one that's unanimously considered great again. Not that, well, any of them ever really were until pop culture impact took hold.

It will be interesting to see the divide between hardcore fans and general audiences over time. The movie does a lot of things that seem destined to annoy the hardcore, but general moviegoers rarely care about that sort of thing and they're the majority of the people who go to see these things. In the case of the kids, they're generally the ones who grow into the franchise too.

Anyway, I may or may not give my opinions when I do see it. I'm kind of predisposed to like this film though, I admit, because it sounds like it actually does something different with the franchise, which is what I wanted in the first place. I decided to skip Force Awakens because it became clear real early it was going to be A New Hope II, and if I wanted ANH I'd watch that again. Most of the non film media has been the safest stuff you could imagine too. I just kind of fell out of Star Wars. But this sounds interesting and more of what I wanted.

To be blunt, geeks are sore winners.
Oh god yeah. I remember being, like, thirteen in 2000 and everyone's angry about ratings and why "gamers" aren't taken seriously - I was one of them at the time - then gaming hit the mainstream, got the critical eye and respect enough to take seriously they always wanted and suddenly they didn't like what they heard, or the effects from everyone else taking it seriously. Same thing happens with things traditionally thought of as geek circles. They want to be taken seriously right up until it means actually having to be something anyone but they care about.

It's the curse of geek things becoming more popular. the People who arn't really interested in things geek (I.e.Fake Geeks), but only into it because it's the current popular thing...are trying to turn it into something it's not.
The very notion of Star Wars being strictly a geek thing and not a worldwide phenomenon popular with general audiences makes me giggle, honestly.

[Vegita-San]

https://i.imgur.com/14pDVr1.gif

All I do is say my piece. how others take it is entirely up to them :).

[Spike Spiegel]

The idea of Star Wars being strictly a geek thing and not a worldwide phenomenon popular with general audiences makes me giggle, honestly.

The movies are a worldwide phenomenon.

The average person would probably look at you in bewilderment if you asked them who Mara Jade, Admiral Thrawn, Ahsoka Tano, or Darth Revan are, or how kyber crystals work.

Those basement dwelling nerds who buy all the figures and play all the video games and watch all the cartoons are the lifeblood of any franchise. They'll be there when general audiences move on from TLJ to Infinity War hype or the Wonder Woman sequel. They'll tolerate DLC sh*tfests like the new Battlefront games because they love the lore and characters.

Those same individuals are the ones who seem to feel let down by TLJ, at least by my understanding.

[Vegita-San]

yep. The people these movies SHOULD be made for.

But, because in this day and age, it's easier to reboot things when some CEO's grand idea doesn't come to fruition... or wait a few years when the general audience forgets about something and bring it back for another try....

the hardcore fans are LONG forgotten about. But, lets continue to call them insulting things like 'gate keepers' and see how well that goes over.

there are reasons why the franchise works with your hard core fans in place. and if you can't bring in new fans using what works, or create something new that feels like it's always been there (Old Hob, for instance)...you shouldn't be working on the franchise.

[plastroncafe]

The movies are a worldwide phenomenon.

The average person would probably look at you in bewilderment if you asked them who Mara Jade, Admiral Thrawn, Ahsoka Tano, or Darth Revan are, or how kyber crystals work.

Those basement dwelling nerds who buy all the figures and play all the video games and watch all the cartoons are the lifeblood of any franchise. They'll be there when general audiences move on from TLJ to Infinity War hype or the Wonder Woman sequel. They'll tolerate DLC sh*tfests like the new Battlefront games because they love the lore and characters.

Those same individuals are the ones who seem to feel let down by TLJ, at least by my understanding.

I think this is overselling things a bit.
Everyone of a certain age was a fan of the original trilogy.
Everyone had the toys.
The movies were critically acclaimed, were nominated, and won awards.

But not every person who loved those movies went on to become a superfan. That's a distinction for a much smaller audience. That audience isn't anywhere near large enough to keep a franchise afloat, no matter how much they wish they were.

Also I'm no less a fan of the franchise because I've never read any of the novelizations.
Much the same way someone isn't less a fan of the TMNT than I am by not knowing who Dale Evans McGuillicutty, Radical, or Lucindra are.

[dl316bh]

The movies are a worldwide phenomenon.

The average person would probably look at you in bewilderment if you asked them who Mara Jade, Admiral Thrawn, Ahsoka Tano, or Darth Revan are, or how kyber crystals work.

Those basement dwelling nerds who buy all the figures and play all the video games and watch all the cartoons are the lifeblood of any franchise. They'll be there when general audiences move on from TLJ to Infinity War hype or the Wonder Woman sequel. They'll tolerate DLC sh*tfests like the new Battlefront games because they love the lore and characters.

Those same individuals are the ones who seem to feel let down by TLJ, at least by my understanding.
And every one of them started somewhere with an easy in, as kids, whether it's the original trilogy or the prequels. Which have always been the stuff that matters, something the fandom always used to understand. There were charts about levels of canonocity, with it understood that anything but film canon was a class lower that held up, sure, but the films held the right to ignore them at any time. Which happened with the prequels. I also feel like, if you care about Mara Jade and Admiral Thrawn and didn't drop out when Disney canned it all - something I did, in regard to caring and dropping out - then you should have known better.

I used to be big into the "listen to the fans" stuff, but over time I've realized there has to be a balance between listening and doing your own thing and sometimes you really can't listen to fans at all or you'll never do anything. Hardcore fans often want safe things that don't really rock the boat much, most of the time, because they want things preserved. We got that film. It was Force Awakens. And people turned on it quick for being, ultimately, nothing.

And frankly, anyone who tolerates Battlefront I or II because of pure franchise love is someone I don't think I can understand.

As a side note, knowledge of Mara Jade, Admiral Thrawn, Darth Revan and the kyber crystals is useless these days anyway, because Disney threw them out of continuity years ago. Thrawn exists again, but in a different form. They already turned their backs on those fans in favor of the freedom of doing what they wanted. This is just the first time they went ahead and took advantage of that.

All of which is not me arguing in favor of The Last Jedi or defending it, I'd like to reiterate, because I haven't seen it yet. I'm just glad they didn't play it too safe. I'll see if I think it paid off soon enough.

But, lets continue to call them insulting things like 'gate keepers' and see how well that goes over.
Of course it doesn't go over well. People don't like being called out for s***ty behavior. Gate keeping is just shorthand for the people who run others out of fandoms or interest because they're not considered "true fans" because, I don't know, they don't know what suit style Batman wore in the 70's or what Kyber crystals are, they don't like things getting too popular, they don't like different perspectives or how they might change the conversation or they simply think their opinion means more because they love it more. Which has absolutely been a thing in "geek culture" for as long as I've been a part of it. Because I guess you can't just like or love something, you have to be obsessed with it and have the "correct" opinions.

Fan is basically short for fanatic and we usually use fanatic as a derogatory term for a reason.

Also I'm no less a fan of the franchise because I've never read any of the novelizations.
You're better off, for the most part. The EU books were great for years, but they started getting weird in a bad way at some point past the New Jedi Order series. Still plenty of classics to read before the tipping point, though, and I still have a fond attachment to the OT cast going through their lives and trying to rebuild the Republic, as done there.

[Sumac]

The very notion of Star Wars being strictly a geek thing and not a worldwide phenomenon popular with general audiences makes me giggle, honestly.
It's not really a "geek thing", but a lot of people care about franchises only when new movie is about to be released.
And then they move on, but not before not complaining about "evil nerds" and things not catering to them.

The gist that all parties want things to be catered to them in the end, whether they are nerds or casual audience. There should be a fine line between respecting both parties. In before someone will start crying that there is no reason to respect long time fans and source materials.

[plastroncafe]

You're better off, for the most part. The EU books were great for years, but they started getting weird in a bad way at some point past the New Jedi Order series. Still plenty of classics to read before the tipping point, though, and I still have a fond attachment to the OT cast going through their lives and trying to rebuild the Republic, as done there.

Now see, that there in bold?
That's my jam.
If I seek any books out, it'll be those. I love slice-of-life stuff.
Thanks for the rec!

[dl316bh]

And then they move on, but not before not complaining about "evil nerds" and things not catering to them.
As someone who actually did used to think that was the way it was when I was a teen, I've ended up realizing at least part of it is projection of insecurities. When it isn't, it's often earned because of their behavior. We'd all just convinced ourselves that everyone else had it out for us. Which continues into the modern day in the form of "well they're not real fans, they're out to kill the things we love, they have it out for the true believers".

There should be a fine line between respecting both parties.
Sure, but no one is ever going to agree what that line is, so there's never going to be agreement on what's accomplished it.

In before someone will start crying that there is no reason to respect long time fans and source materials.
Considering they already threw out the old material even before they put out their first movie?

I feel like part of the problem is that long time fans feel like they deserve more respect than anyone else, which causes a lot of the problems and clashes.

Now see, that there in bold?
That's my jam.
If I seek any books out, it'll be those. I love slice-of-life stuff.
Thanks for the rec!
No problem. Definitely seek out some of the stuff from New Jedi Order on back in the old continuity. There's some fun stuff and since they were books, they could actually take some risks on material a lot of people might not care about. There's a whole anthology book just about characters in Jabbas palace. Hell, the X-Wing pilots had their own book series.

Keep in mind a lot of the books do still have plenty of adventure or things to stop alongside that, though.

[Andrew NDB]

I'd recommend the Courtship of Princess Leia, the Thrawn trilogy, the Dark Empire graphic novels, the Jedi Academy trilogy, Darksaber, the Thrawn sequel duology, the Young Jedi Knights books and... that's probably about it. Plenty of great anthology stuff too.

[Sumac]

As someone who actually did used to think that was the way it was when I was a teen, I've ended up realizing at least part of it is projection of insecurities. When it isn't, it's often earned because of their behavior. We'd all just convinced ourselves that everyone else had it out for us. Which continues into the modern day in the form of "well they're not real fans, they're out to kill the things we love, they have it out for the true believers".
This sounds very dismissive (not to mention ironically paranoid), because it gives someone who proclaiming such position a free-out-of-jail-card to dismiss every bit of criticism as just ramblings of paranoid fanboys, which is not always the case.

What I am seeing now and what I have seen back at release of TFA is that even when people had a legitimate criticism of the movie, they are a lot of times, when their complaints are dismissed as "rambling of stupid nerds".

Which is as bad as fanboism of nerds themselves, because, such dismissive attitude is basically a form of "fanboism" in itself - completely dismissing one side of argument, because of preconceived notion that people you are opposing to are worthless, don't understand anything and their opinion is worthless by default.
Does it remind you of anything?

Sure, but no one is ever going to agree what that line is, so there's never going to be agreement on what's accomplished it.
Then it's up to third party to draw the line.

Considering they already threw out the old material even before they put out their first movie?

I feel like part of the problem is that long time fans feel like they deserve more respect than anyone else, which causes a lot of the problems and clashes.
I am agree that this is the problem.

I don't think that creators should be slaves of long time fans whims and desires. Creators should have right to be absolutely free to tell the story they want.
It doesn't automatically absolve them of responsibility for a failure, though.

[Andrew NDB]

What I've always said is that yes, absolutely, the EU stuff needed to be wiped out for any kind of 35 year later sequel trilogy to work. That said, it's also kind of necessary that in doing so, the new movies they make need to be good enough in their own right to justify that.

I know 7 does not and I'm not sure that 8 does either.

[Vegita-San]

and then they just cherry picked what they liked from the EU and switched around the details. smh.

and they wonder why alot of old fans where not around for the TFA love from the start.

[Andrew NDB]

Also, this occurred to me:

#1: When Kathleen Kennedy mentioned after Carrie died that 7 was always intended to be the Han Solo movie, 8 the Luke movie, and 9 the Leia movie... how can this be, when we know now there was 0 story plans for 8 when 7 was being made, and 0 plans for 9 when 8 was being made (well, beyond Trevorrow's rejected pitch)?

#2: Johnson telling interviewers that he hadn't seen any fan theories about Snoke that were accurate... since Snoke isn't anybody in this movie, was he just trolling people or is there something deeper there? And there's also the Serkis interviews where he says he "absolutely" knows who Snoke really is.

[dl316bh]

This sounds very dismissive (not to mention ironically paranoid), because it gives someone who proclaiming such position a free-out-of-jail-card to dismiss every bit of criticism as just ramblings of paranoid fanboys, which is not always the case.
It's a lot more like growing up and realizing the persecution complex is offputting and that wrapping yourself up so much in one thing is kind of insane and even detrimental to your own mental health, but you can call it dismissive if you like. I got so much s*** over enjoying Episode 1 for years - to use a relevant example to the thread - and probably acted like a bit of a baby about it until I realized it didn't matter years and years ago and just kind of let the whole thing go. Now I can joke about it and have a laugh (and once I got over myself I've had a lot of good conversations about what worked and what didn't with that movie while still enjoying it to this day).

I suppose I realized that acting like that was kind of dumb, so I changed, and yeah, maybe I even feel a little like rolling my eyes at the people who do take it too seriously. If I still took my nerd stuff way too seriously, I'd probably be pissing and moaning constantly about Tom Kings Batman run reframing his entire mission as a slow burn suicide. But man, I can't even look at old posts of mine anymore when I was still like that, because I was so damn obnoxious.

I have lapses from time to time, but eh, I'm human.

What I am seeing now and what I have seen back at release of TFA is that even when people had a legitimate criticism of the movie, they are a lot of times, when their complaints are dismissed as "rambling of stupid nerds".
Honestly? Some of the complaints do sound silly and nitpicky, but I can't say if they actually are until I see it. As for TFA, I saw a lot more nerds defending that movie while others were like "this is... basically the same movie". Seriously, I saw a lot of people like "stop s***ting on this, they had to take the time to get Star Wars right, to reassure us, this is what Star Wars should have been instead of the prequels, what is your problem" for that one, or infighting about that. So maybe we just move in different circles again.

Which is as bad as fanboism of nerds themselves, because, such dismissive attitude is basically a form of "fanboism" in itself - completely dismissing one side of argument, because of preconceived notion that people you are opposing to are worthless, don't understand anything and their opinion is worthless by default. Does it remind you of anything?
Sure, it reminds me of the majority of differences of opinion in general. There's never been some utopia where we all got along. The perception is just that it's so much worse now because the internet has a lot of us essentially the equivalent of in a big room together arguing about this sort of thing, rather than just small town communities who didn't talk to much outside unless they, like, had a pen pal or traveled. We've all rolled our eyes and wanted to dismissively wank on the inside even before social media blew up and tuned people out.

Then it's up to third party to draw the line.
That brings us back to moderators, which you can't really do with something on the scale of social media. That means getting the platforms themselves to tamp down on abusive bull, but they're reluctant to do that. So it's pretty much convincing them, I guess.

I don't think that creators should be slaves of long time fans whims and desires. Creators should have right to be absolutely free to tell the story they want.
It doesn't automatically absolve them of responsibility for a failure, though.
If they fail, they fail - though it's Star Wars, so the terms of failure are different as it'll make a bajillion dollars and fans are used to failure enough they'll just move on and hope the next is better - but even if I see this and think it's garbage, I'm happy to hear they're at least doing something different than just remaking Empire, which was what I expected.

What I've always said is that yes, absolutely, the EU stuff needed to be wiped out for any kind of 35 year later sequel trilogy to work.
Oh, yeah, if they insisted on doing it with the old cast, there was no choice. It doesn't mean I was happy about it - and honestly, it kind of killed Star Wars for me more than a bit - but there was so much post OT stuff at that point and they sure weren't just going to make film versions of some of the books. If they wanted to put it in a timeline beyond them, though, they could have worked something out. Dark Horse had a series - Legacy, I think - about a hundred plus years in the future with a Skywalker descendant. You could do something like that. But with Luke and company? Nope.

since Snoke isn't anybody in this movie, was he just trolling people or is there something deeper there?
Just promotional misdirection, probably. It happens a fair bit. They use it to try and keep things mysterious and people guessing in an age where it's hard to keep things hidden.

[ProactiveMan]

Andy Serkis thinks he knows a lot more than Andy Serkis knows.

I was thinking about the movie on the weekend. I think I would have liked it a lot more if they culled a sub-plot or two. On a positive note; I really liked the Rey v Ben stuff, and the Luke v Rey stuff. The way Ben and Rey talk to each other across space was so simply and elegantly done, and the actors were enjoyable to watch. The scene about Rey’s parents was more emotionally engaging than anything in the last 4 (Ep. 1,2,3 & 7) movies. I would have liked the rebel fleet business, but I thought it was poorly written. I like Laura Dern, I like Oscar Isaac, but watching those scenes was a chore.

I would have cut out the codebreaker/casino stuff. For one thing, it had some of the worst VFX in the whole film – those racing dog/goat/cat monsters looked like rejects from a Harry Potter film. A casino could have been a really cool setting for a Star Wars scene, but they just breezed through it, and nothing really interesting happened in there. And did anyone else feel a little nauseous when the Disney Corporation started lecturing you about how evil weapons manufacturers and filthy rich people are? Disney? The filthy rich corporation that is partnered with the likes of General Electric, and General Dynamics. So in other words, according to the script, this movie was produced by “the worst people in the galaxy”.

I guess they needed something to do with Finn so they gave him a sub-plot, but it didn’t really go anywhere. I like Rose, and Kelly Marie Tran is a good actor, but that whole chunk of the film needed a rewrite or two. Speaking of Rose – I almost laughed out loud when she appears in the First Order officers uniform, and her stylishly feathered hair is hanging down under the cap, and nobody notices. Evil BB8 (BBHATE?) notices something is up – they should have cut to an droid-vision POV shot where Rose’s hair is flashing red or something. “Alert - dress code violation!”.

[Shark_Blade]

74LFfWHc0oo

[sdp]

What I've always said is that yes, absolutely, the EU stuff needed to be wiped out for any kind of 35 year later sequel trilogy to work. That said, it's also kind of necessary that in doing so, the new movies they make need to be good enough in their own right to justify that.

I know 7 does not and I'm not sure that 8 does either.


You don't wipe something to make something that is the same if not worse. If George hadn't sold Star Wars he would've made the Sequel Trilogy he would've wanted without giving two sh-ts about the EU and the EU would've scrambled and fixed any inconsistencies with some convoluted explanation even if it meant writing a book retconning a bunch of characters DC/Marvel style.


it sounds like The Last Jedi is about letting the old fall away, which was never going to sit well with hardcore fans.


I've seen a lot of people who like the movie defend it with points like "Fans are just mad because they don't like change" or "This movie didn't keep it safe, it took risks and people don't like that".

I don't see what risks the movie took or how much it "changed", at least to me specifically what I don't like is how safe it is and how it doesn't take any risks. I already mentioned my favorite part was when things seemed to be taking a turn towards something different but the movie ends with Rebels vs Empire just like the OT was and TFA set up.

Also, I apologize if I spoiled anything accidentally since you haven't seen it. But maybe because you've read so much stuff you'll end up liking it more like Andrew did. :)


Exactly.
But there's another thing to consider: The mainstreaming of fandom and all things geek.

The toxicity we're seeing now was always there, it's just it usually had a much smaller venue. And those venues were considered safe spaces so long as you agreed with the dominant paradigm. For the longest time it was gold-star gatekeeping geeks who got to control what that paradigm was.
And now they don't.
And they are not happy about that.

You can see it in the video game world.
For years video game fandom wanted to be taken seriously, and wanted their medium of choice to be viewed as art.
And now it is...and there's a very vocal portion of that fandom who really does not like all the side effects of that legitimacy.

Things like deconstructive media criticism.

At the end of the day the stories we make, and how we make them, say something about us as creators and our culture as a whole. We affect the media as much as it effects us.

To be blunt, geeks are sore winners.
We're not shoved into lockers anymore, but instead of being better people...we're just go around shoving other people into lockers because we can. And we think that they deserve it, because people did it to us first.

Do you realize how toxic you are with your condescending tone, baiting every thread with politics and ignoring posts because "they're not worth your time"?

I wouldn't be surprised if you only like this movie because of your political agenda, you're no better than the people you claim are wrong.

[Sumac]

It's a lot more like growing up and realizing the persecution complex is offputting and that wrapping yourself up so much in one thing is kind of insane and even detrimental to your own mental health, but you can call it dismissive if you like.
Why are you always make it about some complexes?

Protecting what you like is not a complex.

As with everything it depends on a level of dedication, of course. If someone ready to start a campaign to downvote or upvote movie - that's going overboard. When you just do not want people mindlessly bash what you like - this has nothing to do with complexes.

I am just saying that there are bunch of people who might not have invested a lot of interest in franchise and for them it's just one of the many distractions.

And when the new episode comes out, they act like they are "specialists" in Star Wars anything and dismiss any questions and criticism from old fans of the series as "useless rambling". Even if there are fanboys who hate everything new, because it ruins their perceptions of the series, it doesn't mean that all of them obsessed like or that all of them can't make a legitimate complaint.

And as I have seen, quite a lot of people complain about this movie, not in terms of "they changed - now it sucks", to just dismiss it as "few nerds are angry at something again".

It's not about complexes - it's about respect.
And making it look like it's about complexes makes it look like everyone who dare to have strong opinion about something they like, are sick, which is, once again, needlessly dismissive.

Honestly? Some of the complaints do sound silly and nitpicky, but I can't say if they actually are until I see it. As for TFA, I saw a lot more nerds defending that movie while others were like "this is... basically the same movie". Seriously, I saw a lot of people like "stop s***ting on this, they had to take the time to get Star Wars right, to reassure us, this is what Star Wars should have been instead of the prequels, what is your problem" for that one, or infighting about that. So maybe we just move in different circles again.
There were complaints from old fans exactly about TFA being a copycat of ANH, as well, as Rey being a Mary Sue.

Sure, it reminds me of the majority of differences of opinion in general. There's never been some utopia where we all got along. The perception is just that it's so much worse now because the internet has a lot of us essentially the equivalent of in a big room together arguing about this sort of thing, rather than just small town communities who didn't talk to much outside unless they, like, had a pen pal or traveled. We've all rolled our eyes and wanted to dismissively wank on the inside even before social media blew up and tuned people out.
Differences are just that, differences.

Fanboish blind worship - is another beast all together. It goes beyond "just having differences" into territory "if you don't think like me - than you a worse human being".

I was browsing Internet for the last decade and might say, I didn't see such level of vitriol in discussions before.
You might say that everyone were always fanboys on the inside, a notion that I find rather dismissive and needlessly all-encompassing, but I am pretty sure that before the last few years people were capable of having conversations without instantly tuning out everyone who are disagree with them.

Also, I would say, if Internet was really like a big room for everyone, then there would be less zealotry.
The problem is that Internet is divided to many rooms and social networks give people opportunity to create their own hugboxes, where they are completely isolated from challenging opinions. So, when they leave them and step into "bigger world", they so thoroughly soaked in rhetoric "only my opinion is worthy, everyone else are stupid".
And now, those people from social network hugboxes trying to instill the same level of discussion on forums and other non-isolated platforms, which is not exactly a good thing for everyone involved.

That brings us back to moderators, which you can't really do with something on the scale of social media. That means getting the platforms themselves to tamp down on abusive bull, but they're reluctant to do that. So it's pretty much convincing them, I guess.
Communities should chose their own neutral moderators to keep them healthy. In theory.
In practice, good luck with that. :tsad:

If they fail, they fail - though it's Star Wars, so the terms of failure are different as it'll make a bajillion dollars and fans are used to failure enough they'll just move on and hope the next is better - but even if I see this and think it's garbage, I'm happy to hear they're at least doing something different than just remaking Empire, which was what I expected.
What I was talking about is not failure as is it, but more about fanboish following that some creators and franchises receive, where people have mentality "they can do no wrong".

[TigerClaw]

Bobby Moynihan from SNL join the Jedi Council to do a review of The Last Jedi.

LpOpykiOWVc

[ProactiveMan]

Why do those thumbnails always make me want to slap the person in them? I’ve never been to a YouTube SEO seminar; are people more likely to click on your video if you look like a dipsh*t?

[Shark_Blade]

Why do those thumbnails always make me want to slap the person in them? I’ve never been to a YouTube SEO seminar; are people more likely to click on your video if you look like a dipsh*t?

Lol chill mang.

[Vegita-San]

I was browsing Internet for the last decade and might say, I didn't see such level of vitriol in discussions before.

1991 here. I only noticed it getting to insane levels in the last 5 years or so.

I personally only start to ignore someone for a few reasons

- they become needlessly combative or insulting to the point where you can set your watch to it.

-their opinion feels like it was cut and pasted from a past opinion and doesn't make all that much sense each time it's posted.


-they just plain act like a jerk and don't respect what you write.. going back to point one.

I first noticed this behavior start in facebook groups, then it spread fast to message boards like a disease, and now it's everywhere.

[Spike Spiegel]

Fandom toxicity has been discussed to death in this and other threads around the forum. We get it--people are assholes sometimes. Constantly pointing it out over and over again doesn't make you any more enlightened, or excuse your own negative behavior.

Regarding Star Wars, I am also pressed to wonder if what we have right now is any better than the old EU, or even if the old stuff was worth destroying for this.

I have to say that I have consistently enjoyed new characters like Doctor Aphra and Kanan, especially within their respective comics. I don't think the Rebels cartoon is as good as Clone Wars, but sometimes it has some of the same compelling moral ambiguity as its predecessor. It's nice that they brought back Billy Dee Williams and James Earl Jones as Lando Calrissian and Darth Vader respectively, and the new cast has grown on me (yes, even Ezra). Also, I think the Vader/Ahsoka battle at the end of season 2 is as good as anything we've ever gotten from SW, in the movies or the supplemental material.

The real question, IMHO, is whether the movies will always have to be dumbed down for the masses while also keeping that primary status in the canon. There were clear narrative risks TLJ could have taken in terms of the Rey/Kylo arc, but they didn't. I think TLJ as a whole is like a "one step forward, two steps back" situation. It raises some fascinating questions about what you think you know about Luke and some of the older characters, but it also ruins them in a way while sidelining the new cast members you're supposed to now care about (in this case, Poe and Finn). Also, I don't think Rey has had any real development other than the stuff she can do with the Force. Is there any tension now for IX? Does anybody really think she won't beat Kylo Ren in the final battle?

Even if the sequel trilogy ends up mediocre as a whole, I think it can be "fixed" in the way Clone Wars and the newer comics (specifically, both volumes of the Darth Vader series) improved on and expanded the prequels.

[Vegita-San]

it's not better than the old EU.

they just cherry picked what they liked, and switched around the details.

for example, there was NO reason to name hans son BEN. That was Luke's son in the books, where the name made far more sense. but, this vaunted story group claims they can't use anything that's been done before, so they couldn't very well call hans son jacen....that would just be re using ideas, would it not?

smh.

Instead of Chewie dying, han dies this time around.
Instead of Jaina, we get Rey who will most likely have to battle kylo/jacen/ben and slay him in the end. just like the books.

Jacen kills Mara in the EU. here Ben Kills han....and..
Luke and ben go on a journey to discover things about the force.
Luke self exiles himself to an island and cuts himself off from the force..

same details, just switched around a bit for the general audience that doesn't read the books.

[Krutch]

for example, there was NO reason to name hans son BEN.

Ehhhh... Ben was kind of the one responsible for everyone meeting. Without Ben, Leia wouldnt have sent R2 to Tattooine, which lead to Luke meeting Obiwan, which in turn lead to Obiwan taking Luke to Mos Eisley where they met Han.

[TigerClaw]

Director Rian Johnson Explains The Thinking Behind One Of The Movie's Biggest Twists
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson-explains-the-thinking-behind-one-of-the-movies-biggest-twists-a156421

[sdp]

I disagree, if you scrap the old EU I would expect the new stories to be influenced by the very best of the EU and ignoring the things that didn't work.

The problem is 30 years in the future the EU had already moved past the Empire vs Rebels, the remnants of the Empire was only a few years more after ROTJ then they moved on to other things for the most part.

Here I don't see them taking too many ideas from the old EU, let's face it Han/Leia having a kid and turning to the dark side is not the most original idea so I doubt they took those from the EU, they likely just came up with them themselves. But yeah the ideas they have taken and making them worse when you already have a template of what worked is dumb, why scrap something to make a less interesting yet still messy EU?

Kylo being named Ben is not very logical, only Luke really knew him as Ben, to Leia he was Obi Wan. I mean it's not a detail I care too much about or that it bothers me but yeah I wouldn't say it was logical.

[Sumac]

Even if the sequel trilogy ends up mediocre as a whole, I think it can be "fixed" in the way Clone Wars and the newer comics (specifically, both volumes of the Darth Vader series) improved on and expanded the prequels.
No really sure, if those things can be "fixed" post-factum.
The movie should be good from the beginning, not "fixed" by outside materials.

[sdp]

I never understood how Clone Wars "fixed" the prequels or made them better. I watched all of Clone Wars and it's fine, I like it for what it is, a Star Wars spin-off.

It didn't make Anakin's turn in Episode III feel any less random. It still treated Yoda like a jumping madman which I hated. It didn't make Boba Fett the badass he seemed to be in the OT, though I'll give them that they tried with him. It made Count Dooku and Grievous bigger fools because of villain decay. Obi Wan's friendship with Anakin didn't feel any better.

I actually prefer the first season's anthology take on the Clone Wars and we would see how different battles affected what. When the show became more serialized it was less about the Clone Wars conflict and more about the characters, which I know is what people liked about the show but that was not what the show was about, I wanted a show about the different issues of the Clone Wars which at first the show did try to cover.

To me the show still has many of the faults of the Prequel Trilogy like making Jedis be superheroes, dialog isn't great and overall ignoring established things. I still enjoyed it as I mentioned but it's not a perfect show. Rebels has similar but also different problems, but i'm forgiving of them since they're not the main movies just like I"m more forgiving for comics/video games and othe EU content.

[Vegita-San]

Where the hell to begin on this?

First off: Disney is doing this all wrong. their grand plan is to get rid of all the old characters out of the way, so the new ones can have a chance to shine. and to do this, they are basically copying, ALMOST beat for beat, the original trilogy bit by bit.

The Entire Cave/Cavern sequence was pointless. another retread that went nowhere.

The Rose/Finn sub plot was a fricken Retread of THE FORCE AWAKENS! he basically learns NOTHING from the first movie and goes through the EXACT Same beats again. only this time, useless character #1 Rose is being substituted for Rey.

If there is a love triangle in the third one, god help me.

Gorilla walkers. Walkers in general. Why the hell where they even NEEDED in this? they did nothing! All to setup a ESB moment that fell flat.

Other stuff that fell flat.
Humor.

some of it works, ALOT does not.
Kylo battering hux around in the walker, and the pilot saying 'immediatly sir'. that works.

Having Poes foot break through a starfighter base, and the 'I believe he is tooling you, sir'... lines do not.

I agree with Mark Hamil. Every decision done with luke on this is WRONG WRONG WRONG. especially the flashback scene with him and ben. It was simply another excuse to call back to the 'he could be another vader' plot line.

Anyone who thinks this is NOT a retread of ESB and ROTJ thrown together needs to take the new nostalgia glasses off. some shots copied beat for beat. Yoda walking around in ghost form. rey having the handcuffs shot off her. the light saber flying to her hand.

I have no real desire now to see the Han Solo movie...that'll probably be a rental. and the ONLY reason I will probably go see 9 is because my father still enjoys these movies. otherwise, I think it'll be a rental too.

The best way to describe this movie? Disjointed as hell.

[newfan]

Yeah...

Where Snoke showed Rey the fleet being destroyed as the Emperor did with Luke. Rey turning herself in thinking she could turn Ren like Luke with Vader, Snoke not suspecting his apprentice would turn on him (even though the reasons were different) .....and Yoda prodding Luke with his stick :) It was nice to see him show up though.

[plastroncafe]

Yeah...

Where Snoke showed Rey the fleet being destroyed as the Emperor did with Luke. Rey turning herself in thinking she could turn Ren like Luke with Vader, Snoke not suspecting his apprentice would turn on him (even though the reasons were different) .....and Yoda prodding Luke with his stick :) It was nice to see him show up though.

Troll Force Ghost!Yoda was a very welcome surprise.
So we know the Jedi texts make it on the Falcon. Did Luke put them there?
Or did Rey steal them? And if so, is that why Yoda said, she already had all she was going to learn from them, and then blew up the tree?

[Andrew NDB]

Troll Force Ghost!Yoda was a very welcome surprise.
So we know the Jedi texts make it on the Falcon. Did Luke put them there?
Or did Rey steal them? And if so, is that why Yoda said, she already had all she was going to learn from them, and then blew up the tree?

It smells like a reshoot thing to me, maybe Abrams asked a favor of Johnson. The clear intention was to burn everything down. Luke stashing them in the Falcon pre-burning would make his attempt to burn them pointless, and Rey didn't really have any chance to swipe them.

[newfan]

Troll Force Ghost!Yoda was a very welcome surprise.
So we know the Jedi texts make it on the Falcon. Did Luke put them there?
Or did Rey steal them? And if so, is that why Yoda said, she already had all she was going to learn from them, and then blew up the tree?

and In his puppet form too!
Well, probably wasn't yoda who moved them (though I suppose he could have) but more likely than Luke who was going to burn then... then seemed upset when he thought Yoda did... so I'd say she took them, she wants to learn more and find answers but got sick of Luke and wanted to race off to Ben.

[TigerClaw]

Apparently the movie has over 20 minutes of deleted scenes, the 1st cut was 3 hours.
http://collider.com/the-last-jedi-deleted-scenes-details/

[Vegita-San]

they could have EASILY have cut out 20 minutes of the final cut!

[sdp]

Troll Force Ghost!Yoda was a very welcome surprise.
So we know the Jedi texts make it on the Falcon. Did Luke put them there?
Or did Rey steal them? And if so, is that why Yoda said, she already had all she was going to learn from them, and then blew up the tree?

I read or saw an interview I think with the director or hamill and they mentioned it was Rey who took the texts, apparently Yoda knew this,
it was only Luke who didn't know when he burned it down.

[Vegita-San]

and anyone who STILL claims rey is not a mary sue after seeing this movie is deluding themselves.

she barely got two lessons. the rest of her time she spent trailing luke and watching him milk a four breasted alien. I didn't even notice she had the texts on the ship. if yoda thought they where so un important, why even BOTHER adding that into a reshoot? They basically made luke a complete and utter failure just to prop rey up as the new jedi hope. utterly ridiculous.

[Krutch]

and anyone who STILL claims rey is not a mary sue after seeing this movie is deluding themselves.

At least she wasn't written as a Mary Sue within this movie.

She basically gets thrown around effortlessly by Snoke, even has a bit where she goes to grab the lightsaber and it hits the back of her head. Snoke had her dead to rights until Kylo betrayed him.

(I didn't really care for her besting Luke in a duel, though...)

Her reveal as coming from no one special makes all her Mary Sue-isms of TFA that much harder to swallow, though.

[TigerClaw]

ScreenJunkies News did a video in which they discuss The Last Jedi being the most divisive Star Wars movie.

8uvIPHtKoQQ

[Andrew NDB]

At least she wasn't written as a Mary Sue within this movie.

She basically gets thrown around effortlessly by Snoke, even has a bit where she goes to grab the lightsaber and it hits the back of her head. Snoke had her dead to rights until Kylo betrayed him.

(I didn't really care for her besting Luke in a duel, though...)

Her reveal as coming from no one special makes all her Mary Sue-isms of TFA that much harder to swallow, though.

True. I was actually defending Rey in TFA because I was like, "Well now hold on... we don't know who she is yet. Maybe it turns out she is, like, Palpatine reincarnate, a female clone of Luke or Anakin, or maybe she was super-powerful in the Force and got her mind wiped... we just don't know yet!"

If she truly turns out to be just, "random kid, random parents," I'm fine with that (even though it's boring), but that doesn't explain her proficiency in TFA at all. There had to be something else going on there, there had to.

[Vegita-San]

and anyone who thinks women arn't being represented in movies, saw no less than three women led movie trailers.

one was a sports movie, one was something about natilee portman and machine guns. the third was a disney movie with Oprah...and I think the fourth was some android lady.

[TigerClaw]

Star Wars has always been for kids.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/12/op-ed-chill-out-everybody-star-wars-has-always-been-for-kids/

[Vegita-San]

especially if you saw that horrid commercial that ended the movie as a tacked on last shot. I mean, wth was that?

[newfan]

At least she wasn't written as a Mary Sue within this movie.

She basically gets thrown around effortlessly by Snoke, even has a bit where she goes to grab the lightsaber and it hits the back of her head. Snoke had her dead to rights until Kylo betrayed him.

(I didn't really care for her besting Luke in a duel, though...)

Her reveal as coming from no one special makes all her Mary Sue-isms of TFA that much harder to swallow, though.

So far as Mary Sue goes....

Sorry guys, that was my thought too, unless as Andrew pointed out, there is really more to her. A random person being that good after no training. I did not like that she bested Luke either, maybe because he was closed off but still, Jedi master vs new pupil.
At least she wasn't a match for Snoke.... though he is now gone anyway.

I'll read the Star Wars being for kids article in a bit, I always saw Star Wars as for all ages, also, the new movies (inc prequels) are cert 12 (pg13) ... even though the toys are marketed from a young age....same as the superhero movies I suppose.

[sdp]

She didn't even really train at all with Luke in the movie, though I guess they were in a tough spot, if they did train then it would parallel ESB a little too much.

I don't mind Rey being "that" good, it's cheap writing but whatever. Her not having any real parents? In normal circumstances it would've been fine but when you build up in your marketing "Who IS this girl?" and you don't deliver then yeah we have the right to complain.

[Shark_Blade]

Star Wars is better off under one mastermind (George Lucas) controlling it, vetting quality assurance. Now it's spiraling out of control.

How could a newbie like Rey being too powerful, even more than a trained ex-Jedi (Kylo), or even her own master (legendary Luke Skywalker)???

Heck why would Luke tried to kill his own family/blood - his nephew, his very own twin sister's son! when in Return of the Jedi, Luke sacrificed himself to meet his own father because despite Vader being evil he still believe there's good in him. Both Vader and Ben are his family, you telling me he suddenly doesn't believe there's any good in Ben at all?? No wonder Mark Hamill said he disagreed with the director's vision. It all made sense now.

And there's so much other issues to cover. Luke's death is pretty embarrassing, he died because of exhaustion due to making that hologram across the galaxy where instead he could have fought Kylo Ren heroically. I can't even..what was the point of that hologram again? Pointless.

I feel like people in charge of making this film series doesn't really understand the full lore nor they even care. Screw it, it's just a milking cow at this point with no quality control sadly. :(

[newfan]

I thought the same thing (SDP)

It would have been better to have Luke train her and then by the next movie she's done her training and he could die then... (would have made more sense and given Luke a chance to do something more before dying) but yes, that would be a repeat.

As for the build up of who this girls is, yes (though just maybe they are saving something), the same with Snoke too... who is this dark all powerful being? where did he come from? where was he when Palpataine and Vader were ruling... oh, never mind.....:lol:

Er, Sharkblade, a few may still not have seen and are looking at the thread?

[Andrew NDB]

She didn't even really train at all with Luke in the movie, though I guess they were in a tough spot, if they did train then it would parallel ESB a little too much.

True. He didn't even train her how to fight with a lightsaber. She was just sort of training herself and then he walked out and observed her continuing to train herself... which is weird.

I don't mind Rey being "that" good, it's cheap writing but whatever. Her not having any real parents? In normal circumstances it would've been fine but when you build up in your marketing "Who IS this girl?" and you don't deliver then yeah we have the right to complain.

If TFA had had her super painfully pick up that lightsaber, then getting her ass handed to her by Kylo, and then her getting the scar and not Kylo... her parents being nobodies would work fine. We can have a nice arc with her learning the Force and how to be a Jedi Knight from this person or that person. But starting with what they did in TFA? They've set it up in such a way that there has to be more to it than just "random person, random parents," unless everything we've known about Star Wars is out the window.

Even putting aside the prequels and everything that taught us about "You need to start your training when you're like 5 or you're not gonna be sh**!" and all, Luke in 5 had way more trouble than Rey in drawing that lightsaber to him, and that was after being trained by a Jedi Master. Let alone winning lightsaber fights by people with training off the bat.

Luke's death is pretty embarrassing, he died because of exhaustion due to making that hologram across the galaxy where instead he could have fought Kylo Ren heroically. I can't even..what was the point of that hologram again? Pointless.

I feel like people in charge of making this film series doesn't really understand the full lore nor they even care. Screw it, it's just a milking cow at this point with no quality control sadly. :(

It's not an excuse, but the "Full-on Force Projection Will Kill You!" thing was telegraphed early into the movie. I think it was the first time Kylo and Rey interact via a limited version of that. Kylo remarks that he can only see her, not her surroundings... that it's good, because otherwise more than that "would kill you." Right then and there, I knew how Luke was going to die (I mean, I knew how he'd die, but now I knew specifically the reason therein).

[Vegita-San]

I feel like people in charge of making this film series doesn't really understand the full lore nor they even care. Screw it, it's just a milking cow at this point with no quality control sadly. :(

yep.

the head of lucas film only cares about one thing now, and it ain't star wars.

[AT-Man]

Where the f*ck is the new Half in the Bag???!!!?!? I'm literally dying.

[Spike Spiegel]

I feel like people in charge of making this film series doesn't really understand the full lore nor they even care. Screw it, it's just a milking cow at this point with no quality control sadly. :(

As symbolized by that scene with the sloth... P U R E K I N O.

https://orig00.deviantart.net/e213/f/2016/076/3/8/when_she_ignites_the_lightsaber_just_right__by_sta rwarsmaniac-d9vf7ga.jpg

[plastroncafe]

There's something that seems to be a bit overlooked in this discussion of Rey: She already knew how to fight. We see her defend herself with a staff. And when she does finally decide to wield the lightsaber in TFA, she's using it like you would a staff.

Luke had training with a blaster, and that's about it.
We see him train with it that one time while traveling in the Falcon with Obi Wan.

Where the former had to live by her own, and by her wits, the latter had a family to take care of him.

And that's not even getting to the crap Anakin pulled off.
*cough*virginbirth*cough*

But they're Skywalkers! you say.
So what? Most of the original Jedi weren't Skywalkers, but rather talented kids that were taken from their families so that their raw power could be honed by the Jedi.

I just don't see this as being any different as what was canon compliant prior to the restart.

[Coola Yagami]

Star Wars has always been for kids.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/12/op-ed-chill-out-everybody-star-wars-has-always-been-for-kids/

Idk... I take it the original trilogy was more for teenage sci fi geeks back when it hit theaters. I don't remember comedic moments for kids, at least not in the very first one. And Darth Vader was definitely not some funny goofy children's movie villain.

[Vegita-San]

Idk... I take it the original trilogy was more for teenage sci fi geeks back when it hit theaters. I don't remember comedic moments for kids, at least not in the very first one. And Darth Vader was definitely not some funny goofy children's movie villain.

I feel like the movies where made for the people making them.

THEN after they became a big hit, lucas' attitude toward them changed. Just like Gene Roddenberry's attitude toward his legacy.

Then came in the ewoks :)

[Coola Yagami]

I feel like the movies where made for the people making them.

THEN after they became a big hit, lucas' attitude toward them changed. Just like Gene Roddenberry's attitude toward his legacy.

Then came in the ewoks :)

Lmao yeah true.

[Spike Spiegel]

I always figured Lucas started calling them "kids' movies" as a way of saving face after the backlash he faced with TPM.

[Coola Yagami]

I always figured Lucas started calling them "kids' movies" as a way of saving face after the backlash he faced with TPM.

Idk if it's true or not but I heard during a net debate at work last night that Jar Jar was added in TPM to bring some sort of levity in an otherwise serious film, something for the kids while the older people are more engrossed in the story and lore

And dammit.... now that I think about it... I guess that was 3CPO and R2D2's roles in the very first one (The New hope). Damn. I stand corrected.

[Vegita-San]

that would make sense. but they went WAY too far and overboard.
I never found 3P0 annoying personally..but Jar Jar...

Jar Jar might have been the start of dumb-ing down of characters.

[Vegita-San]

oh internet. ahh yes, the old 'it's only basement dwelling women haters who dislike this movie!' mantra

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/18/16791754/star-wars-the-last-jedi-negative-reaction-reddit-fans

[Andrew NDB]

The RLM review is out:

L9hwGZFPSmw

[plastroncafe]

I reject the premise of the Ringer article based on the premise that the people upset represent the Core Fans, as they refer to them.

It gives the people upset a credibility that they're not entitled to.

I get that folks are upset. They don't like a thing attributed to a thing they've loved for years.

But they're not the only folks who love that thing, and as such they're not the only fans.

[ZariusTwo]

CXf8DRkg0s4

[NinjaPug]

This movie has produced the dumbest online petition yet: Requesting that Lucasfilm remove it from the official canon.

Poor neckbeards didn't get their EU Luke and Rey isn't a Skywalker, Kenobi or a female clone of Palpatine.

[Vegita-San]

I thought neckbeards where the ones who gave us this trilogy in the first place.

it's the basement dwellers that are upset about the EU being over written..:roll:

[Spike Spiegel]

Caring too much about the people who hate the film is an exercise in futility.

If you like it, you can go see it ten more times. If you don't, you should be perfectly free to spill inordinate amounts of digital ink talking about it.

I doubt the filmmakers care, given the amount of money this thing has already generated. There's probably a good amount of people who will buy tickets just so they can hate-watch it.

[sdp]

Caring too much about the people who hate the film is an exercise in futility.

If you like it, you can go see it ten more times. If you don't, you should be perfectly free to spill inordinate amounts of digital ink talking about it.

Exactly, I hated The Force Awakens, expressed my opinion about it and that's it. The response was overwhelmingly positive for the first year but I didn't come up with conspiracy theories as to why everyone liked it.

I keep getting people that tweet at me and tell me that TLJ is actually well liked by most and that it's only a few vocal people because BOTS & 4CHAN and and....

I'm like what?

If you like it cool, I hate it, I'm happy finally other people agree with me. But when I like something unpopular (TNM) I don't make up lies as to why people hate it.

This movie has produced the dumbest online petition yet: Requesting that Lucasfilm remove it from the official canon.

Poor neckbeards didn't get their EU Luke and Rey isn't a Skywalker, Kenobi or a female clone of Palpatine.

I don't disagree that it's a dumb petition, but these petitions get started all the time.

My question is why is it "neckbeards" hate this movie Star Wars is awesome and yet for the prequels "It's George Lucas that's wrong"?

Who controls the narrative of when something bad is bad and something bad is not bad?

Also why try to pidgeon-hole everyone who doesn't like the movie because it isn't EU Luke or Rey isn't a Skywalker? I've seen these a lot as excuses as to why people don't like TLJ for petty reasons. I don't like TLJ because it's the same thing as the OT with some slight modifications, many feel the same way. It's not because "the changes are too much for us". Also why wasn't the narrative "the changes are too much for the fans" when it came to the prequels?

[ZariusTwo]

Even if you are happy with the plot twists and changes, the film can underperform in other areas too. For me it was humor and the gender politics.

[Spike Spiegel]

The conflict I see here regarding the main twist is that, for some fans, this is the Star Wars equivalent of publishing The Last Temptation of Christ and then declaring that it is canon with the rest of the New Testament and should be published as part of the Christian Bible from now on.

Even if you are happy with the plot twists and changes, the film can underperform in other areas too. For me it was humor and the gender politics.

The bits with Holdo/Poe were too ham-fisted for my liking. Why couldn't they just have these two characters communicate with each other as part of that arc, to create the camaraderie that is desperately needed among the new cast? Hell, make them the new Han/Leia variant. I didn't think Finn and Rose had any actual chemistry.

[Sumac]

Also why try to pidgeon-hole everyone who doesn't like the movie because it isn't EU Luke or Rey isn't a Skywalker? I've seen these a lot as excuses as to why people don't like TLJ for petty reasons. I don't like TLJ because it's the same thing as the OT with some slight modifications, many feel the same way. It's not because "the changes are too much for us". Also why wasn't the narrative "the changes are too much for the fans" when it came to the prequels?
Because, it's easier than engaging in intellectual debate and strokes ego and brings moral cookies with 0 effort.
Just call another side "bad people" and we done here. :roll:

[plastroncafe]

The conflict I see here regarding the main twist is that, for some fans, this is the Star Wars equivalent of publishing The Last Temptation of Christ and then declaring that it is canon with the rest of the New Testament and should be published as part of the Christian Bible from now on.

Ehhhh, I think it's more appropriate to compare The Last Jedi to Apocrypha, rather than what is essentially biblical fanfiction.
Unless your having done so was to more succinctly illustrate your point.

I can see where some fans would find that particular twist to be dissatisfying. I'm not one of those people, and really like that sort of thing in my fiction.

The bits with Holdo/Poe were too ham-fisted for my liking. Why couldn't they just have these two characters communicate with each other as part of that arc, to create the camaraderie that is desperately needed among the new cast? Hell, make them the new Han/Leia variant. I didn't think Finn and Rose had any actual chemistry.

I'm still chewing on this, but it seems to me the same arguments I've heard with folks regarding Caps Lock Harry from the later books of Harry Potter, as well as some criticisms of Aang from Avatar the Last Airbender.

It comes down to the story they're trying to tell. Where might doesn't always make right, and where the brash decision isn't always the correct one.

Poe is a brilliant battle general, because he favors short term goals over long term ones. Where as Holdo is the opposite. At the end of the day, she outranked him, and she didn't have to talk with him. He didn't need to know.
But he acted brashly, and...it didn't turn out well for him. Or for a whole lot of folks.

[Vegita-San]

The bits with Holdo/Poe were too ham-fisted for my liking. Why couldn't they just have these two characters communicate with each other as part of that arc, to create the camaraderie that is desperately needed among the new cast? Hell, make them the new Han/Leia variant. I didn't think Finn and Rose had any actual chemistry.

someone pointed out it was another bit of women right, men acting bad and wrong.

Finn didn't even look like he was bothering to trying to act in this thing. Same goes for Poe. the 'it felt good to hurt them line' looked like it actually just kind of snoozed out of him. Rose was just kind of....there. another new character thrown in for no reason, when we have no real reason to like these older new characters yet.

[AT-Man]

Are people really mad about Luke being a projection in the end? He did it so Ben wouldn't be responsible for murdering him, too, because he knew Ben would do him without hesitation. It wouldn't make him a better person and Luke knew it.

[Andrew NDB]

Poe is a brilliant battle general, because he favors short term goals over long term ones.

Wouldn't that make him a horrible general, in any branch of the Armed Forces? And he's barely holding the rank of commander of what is the equivalent of their Space Navy.

Speaking of which, how do their ranks work? We have "Commanders," which is a Naval rank, flying starfighters... yet we have Generals like Leia, Dodonna, etc., which is an Army, Air Force and Marine rank, which are the ones on the sidelines commanding the starfighter pilots. Is there two different Armed Forces in the Resistance/Rebel Alliance/New Republic, or some alien ranking system that merges both?

[NinjaPug]

I don't disagree that it's a dumb petition, but these petitions get started all the time.

My question is why is it "neckbeards" hate this movie Star Wars is awesome and yet for the prequels "It's George Lucas that's wrong"?

Who controls the narrative of when something bad is bad and something bad is not bad?

Also why try to pidgeon-hole everyone who doesn't like the movie because it isn't EU Luke or Rey isn't a Skywalker? I've seen these a lot as excuses as to why people don't like TLJ for petty reasons. I don't like TLJ because it's the same thing as the OT with some slight modifications, many feel the same way. It's not because "the changes are too much for us". Also why wasn't the narrative "the changes are too much for the fans" when it came to the prequels?

The people that disliked the movie and started a petition to remove this from canon are the ones that are upset at the things I mentioned. I'm not lumping them into everyone that didn't like the movie. There are aspects of the movie I don't like at all but nothing to do with the movie not living up to any preconceived head-canon.

I haven't seen anyone complain that there were too many changes for a SW movie to be able to enjoy it.

[Andrew NDB]

I liked the movie well enough despite some of the stuff I really didn't... but it doesn't take a Star Wars fan to point out the many poor storytelling choices and go-nowhere plot and character threads in the film, in and of itself.

It's kind of like... TFA was a really well made bad story... And TLJ was a badly made good story. To me.

[ProactiveMan]

Wouldn't that make him a horrible general, in any branch of the Armed Forces? And he's barely holding the rank of commander of what is the equivalent of their Space Navy.

He'd be swinging from a space-yardarm for the stunt he pulled on Laura Dern.

Speaking of which, how do their ranks work? We have "Commanders," which is a Naval rank, flying starfighters... yet we have Generals like Leia, Dodonna, etc., which is an Army, Air Force and Marine rank, which are the ones on the sidelines commanding the starfighter pilots. Is there two different Armed Forces in the Resistance/Rebel Alliance/New Republic, or some alien ranking system that merges both?

Plus Admirals who are wall-eyed fish monsters. I don't know about the US, but in our military Admiral and General are equivalent ranks. Leia is more like a Field Marshal - like, she seems to be the highest ranking officer in the whole shebang.

[TigerClaw]

Those audiences ratings like on Rotten Tomatoes shouldnt be counted, since the Cinemascore rating is the real audience rating, which has given the Last Jedi, an A Cinemascore.
https://www.cinemascore.com/

http://i64.tinypic.com/34zambc.jpg

The only people upset, are a vocal minority.

[Andrew NDB]

Plus Admirals who are wall-eyed fish monsters. I don't know about the US, but in our military Admiral and General are equivalent ranks. Leia is more like a Field Marshal - like, she seems to be the highest ranking officer in the whole shebang.

True, I forgot about the Admirals. It would depend how many stars of a general you are to be equivalent to Admiral, unless we're assuming when someone says "Admiral So-and-So" they really mean "Admiral So-and-So," and not "Vice-Admiral So-and-So," or "Rear Admiral So-and-So."

Then there's things like Han Solo skipping all the way from Private to a 4 star general in the Rebel Alliance in less than one year. I have to assume that was an honorary thing.

[plastroncafe]

Or that everyone directly above him died.

[Andrew NDB]

Or that everyone directly above him died.

Hey, it's possible in Star Wars, but you certainly wouldn't hear about field promotions to Admiral or General. Mostly because... they're not out in the field. And that's not the way it works. Most are between one lower ranked position to another, and even then you have to go back and take the right course to have it stick. There's things like "The Captain of our naval ship is dead... you're acting captain now, Mr. second-in-command!" But that's just acting captain, and it's only until you pull into port. It doesn't work like in Abrams' Trek.

[ProactiveMan]

The first order is weird too. Hux seems like he's the highest ranking military official, but he is always on the front line, riding around in the most favorable targets available.

Also, Phasma is a Captain. Is she an Army Captain or a Navy Captain? She doesn't seem to function like a Navy Captain, so I'm guessing Army, which makes her the equivalent of a Navy Lieutenant I guess? But she acts more like a Commander.

[Andrew NDB]

The first order is weird too. Hux seems like he's the highest ranking military official, but he is always on the front line, riding around in the most favorable targets available.

Also, Phasma is a Captain. Is she an Army Captain or a Navy Captain? She doesn't seem to function like a Navy Captain, so I'm guessing Army, which makes her the equivalent of a Navy Lieutenant I guess? But she acts more like a Commander.

Yeah, it's got to be the Army/Marines equivalent of a captain (O-3). If she's an (Imperial) Navy captain (O-6), where's this ship she's captaining? And if she is, why would she be continually bossing around Stormtroopers on ships that aren't hers, captained by captains that aren't her? And dressed like a chrome Stormtrooper all the time?

Which makes her role in TLJ that much more confusing. If she's the equivalent of a First Order Army or Marines captain, then she has to be part of a detachment (and not even the highest ranking one... surely there's a major, or lieutenant colonel above her?), presumably the one she was part of on the Star Destroyer in TFA. That Star Destroyer wasn't destroyed, ever. What's she doing commanding Stormtroopers on Snoke's ship (which we also have to assume is the flagship of the First Order), which must be an entirely different and gigantic detachment?

[CyberCubed]

Finally saw the movie and really enjoyed it. A lot of stuff I didn't see coming, and the stuff they did do (or didn't?) actually made me interested. Some thoughts:

- I liked Rey a lot more in this movie than TFA. She seems like she's actually struggling now, and the Rey/Kylo Ren dynamic was actually good this time. It kept me guessing throughout the whole movie how it would go, if Rey would "turn to the dark side" if Kylo Ren would be "redeemed" it was all well done. Every scene between the two had me interested.

- Finn was fine. He basically served his purpose as a support character. Same for Poe really, there's not much of their roles you can complain about since they're just basically used as typical heroes/fighter pilots. I thought they both had decent moments.

- That being said I didn't care for Rose at all...was that the name of the Asian girl? She just seemed...meh. I wouldn't have cared if she died at the end.

- I also didn't care for the purple haired lady, but I guess she served her purpose in the film by the end.

- Luke was great...but yeah...I wish he did more. He had about one or two moments of awesome...but it wasn't enough. That being said I still expect him to be in Episode 9 in some form.

- I liked Leia well enough. As her final film, it's decent for her to go out on.


For some of the big spoilers:

I LOVE the fact that Snoke and Phasma died. LOVED. I didn't think much of them in the first movie, so I'm glad they didn't just keep them around to try and make them interesting and killed them off. Who cares who Snoke is? You'll probably find out in some crappy comic or novel anyway.
I was hoping the other red-haired main general would die too, because he's bland as hell, but sadly he's still around.

Yoda appearing was cool and unexpected. I like the fact that he and Luke kept in contact over 50 years or whatever it is. Leia's moment surviving in space was a bit odd but I didn't care too much.

The final scene with the slave kid was dumb as hell, lol.

Last but not least...I actually like Kylo Ren now. The first movie I was still undecided about him, but knowing he really is the main villain now has kept me intrigued.

As for Rey's parents, as said, I'm fine with her not being related to anyone important.

I'll give it an 8/10, definitely the best movie since the original trilogy.

[victory_angel]

I saw Last Jedi yesterday afternoon

I have to say I enjoyed it. I do admit I did have some problems with is such as how it dragged. I also didn’t like the “I’m Super Leia” moment. I mean I know she is force sensitive, but at the same time it just felt rediculous to have her get sucked into the void of space and then use her force sensitivity to reel herself back in.


The death of Snoke was surprising, but I don’t really know how to feel about it. I find having him die this soon in the story feels like it cheapens his character. Because we didn’t really have a chance to know him or understand who he was as a villain.

But perhaps there is a point to his demise.

Take Palpatine AKA Darth Sidious, we don’t really know him very well in the trillogy either. He is just an intimidaiting figure that controls Vador’s leash. And in the end of the trillogy he goads Luke into striking him down so that he could fulfill his destiny of joining the Dark Side. Simply because Luke was angry and any rash action he took right then would be in anger.

Darth Sidus knew that sooner or later one day Vador would try to kill him. He wasn’t so arrogant as to assume that wouldn’t happen. This concept is actually mentioned in the Dark Lords of the Sith Novel which is one of the novelizations that is Cannon with the franchise.

"We are all of us, always being tested, my friend. Tests make us stronger, and strength is power, and power is the point. We must pass all the tests we face… Or die in the effort."
―Palpatine to Darth Vader


Snoke gave me the impression that since he had control of Kylo’s mind, he felt he had all the cards in the deck. And that arrogance lead to his down fall, that is unless he was banking on Kylo to betray him. Because even after he kills Snoke, he still learns nothing.

Instead his attitude was “I don’t care about the light side or the dark side. So lets destroy everything and create a new universe from the ashes.”

While Ray could see the folly in his planning “If you destroy everything, then there will be nothing left but chaos. The only way the world can be reborn is to guide and protect what is still fighting to survive.”

But this could have been Snoke’s plan all along as he does point out that Kylo is conflicted and that conflict was making him weak. So he creates a connection between Kylo and Ray so he could see what direction that Kylo could be pushed towards.

Who knows perhaps we could see the Sith version of a Force Ghost.

Phasma was also disappointing, the fight with her and Fin. But her character is pointless on a grandscale of the story. Because we never really get to know about her as a villain other then her obviously being dedicated to the first order. We only see a small glimpse of the person behind her mask before she supposedly dies. We could see her in the next installment, but I think it is very likely she is dead since the armor she is wearing would have cooked her alive just falling into that inferno. We could still be surprised.

As for Ray’s parentage. It is possible for force aware Children to be born to non-force aware families. This is the red harring they seem to be feeding us for now and Ray’s parentage would be revealed in the next episode. And this was mearly a ploy from Kylo to get Ray to join his cause.

The “You are no one, you were born from nothing, your parents were nothing. But join me and you will become somebody”

And even if it’s true that her parentage was just as Kylo said. This wouldn’t be the first time a force-sensitive person was born from non-force sensitive parents.

In the original trillogy and prequils did have both have the argument for Luke and Anakin that they were too old to receive the training. The Jedi often would find and acquire force-sensitive youngsters not long after they were born.

The force or the whills as it is also known is it’s own entity and will awaken in whomever it feels worthy.

Yoda also agrees with Luke that the time has come for the Jedi to end, or rather the Jedi as they know them to end. But not the Jedi in and of themselves.

I don’t recall what continuity this is from, though I do think it may have been from Knights of the Old Republic. But originally the Jedi were not entirely for the light side or dark side. Instead they maintained a nutral mind set on the two forces. When one began to lean in the direction of one side of the force, he was instructed to meditate on the other side of the force until they glanced themselves out.

The Jedi as we know them in the series largly followed a path of the light and all that was good. Following an event called “The Hundred Years of Darkeness” which saw rise to the Sith order.

Because the Jedi as they are in the films largely followed a path of light they were blinded by that side of the force. And that was what I felt was symbolic of Yoda burning the temple and the sacred texts. But through Rey the Jedi could have a rebirth of who they once were.

"First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light.
The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of gray
Through refined Jedi sight."
―Journal of the Whills

[Vegita-San]

Apparently Rian was writing this movie without having fully seen the finished force awakens movie. How does that even happen?

All he problably had was the bible description of the characters from the first movie to go on. which is why almost nothing got addressed. and it feels like a soft reboot reboot.

where is the quality control?

[Sumac]

The argument about Palpatine being nobody in OT doesn't real hold up, when it comes to Snoke.

The thing is, when OT was released it was clear cut - good rebels, bad empire. Viewers didn't need additional information, it was just what it was.

Now, however, we have OT, PT and 2 parts out of ST. Star Wars is not any longer "thing in itself". We have lots and lots of story and having important characters out of nowhere looks sloppy and lazy.

We have a backstory for ST in form of OT and having Snoke emulating Palpatine, being important character out of nowhere and with no backstory is no longer works. We know how Empire had fallen, we know how First Order was formed more or less, we know about political situation in the SW universe and having such important player as Snoke coming out of nowhere is just senseless.

I understand their desire to emulate OT, but the times have changed and some of those decisions no longer make any sense.

[Spike Spiegel]

EIY-PsHrj9A

[Shark_Blade]

Apparently Rian was writing this movie without having fully seen the finished force awakens movie. How does that even happen?

All he problably had was the bible description of the characters from the first movie to go on. which is why almost nothing got addressed. and it feels like a soft reboot reboot.

where is the quality control?

None. Disney just wants to churn this cow yearly, so everything gotta be rushed out of the door instantly.

The result: a messy film full of plot holes & retconning with unclear path/stories/characteristics for the characters.

I still love this film but I can also admit that it is very flawed and a tragedy. It's a pity because Star Wars already have an A list of actors ready to commit 100% on their roles. Such wasted potential.

[RaphaelinSTL]

Saw this last night and left the theater feeling immensely drained by it's unnecessary length ... but also disappointed there was way too much fat on the steak.

I'm not a hardcore Star Wars fan, but I enjoyed the first trilogy fine and had a great time with the Force Awakens. This movie felt like a short story that I was required to read but it took me two and a half hours because I kept getting distracted.

I don't know ... maybe these just aren't for me in the long run.

[NinjaPug]

Apparently Rian was writing this movie without having fully seen the finished force awakens movie. How does that even happen?

All he problably had was the bible description of the characters from the first movie to go on. which is why almost nothing got addressed. and it feels like a soft reboot reboot.

where is the quality control?

Because he started writing it while they were filming. TLJ was supposed to be released in May 2017.

[newfan]

Wasn't a lot of this movie re-written before they started shooting? I read, to bring it back to the central characters.

[Andrew NDB]

Wasn't a lot of this movie re-written before they started shooting? I read, to bring it back to the central characters.

I've never read that, ever.

[newfan]

I've never read that, ever.

I can't remember where I read it now, maybe I misinterpreted it but I'm sure I read there was some re-writing.. (I incorrectly used the word 'most')

Edit: Just searched it, seems that they were going to/considering doing a final re-write to cut the roles of 2 new characters down so that they can Focus on Rey, Poe etc before bringing new ones in... so not much then if they did do it.

[NinjaPug]

Yeah there was a minor rewrite after TFA opened that pushed the start of filming from Jan 2016 to Feb 2016. The word then was that it was to beef up the roles of Poe and Finn based on the fan response from TFA. Who knows if that reason is legit.

[Andrew NDB]

The word then was that it was to beef up the roles of Poe and Finn based on the fan response from TFA.

Yeesh, I'd hate to see TLJ before their parts were "beefed up."

If that's even true.

[TigerClaw]

Here's Kevin Smith's review of The Last Jedi.
https://www.facebook.com/YesThatKevinSmith/videos/10154895143831930/

[tomtmnt]

I love Star Wars but this was tripe.

I nearly fell asleep half way through. Sad times. Was hoping for so much more.

[Spike Spiegel]

After the dust settles, could this possibly be...a franchise killer? Or at least the one that takes a lot of steam out of the sail?

[Vegita-San]

I really hope so. It would be great to have the fans turn on disney the way they did for ghostbusters.

Disney isn't putting alot of thought into these things. Just look at the weak ass designs. I wasn't even sure what that donut shaped thing was supposed to be in snokes room until it was shown to be some kind of viewer or window.

and those silly looking guards with the knives(?) ugh....

[Andrew NDB]

After the dust settles, could this possibly be...a franchise killer?

Not remotely. If anything, the polarizing audience reaction might make Disney tighten the corporate reins even moreso, creatively.

[victory_angel]

65TU-Scw2mQ

[CyberCubed]

It almost seems like this movie was made to make fun of Star Wars, but in a good way. Luke immediately throwing the lightsaber over his back after audiences waited 2 years to see how he'd react to Rey handing it to him. :lol:

I also LOVED the fact that Snoke told Kylo Ren to take off that "ridiculous helmet" and then he smashed it to bits. It's almost like they realized how idiotic it was to try and make him "Darth Vader Jr." and him smashing the helmet finally made him into his own character. If J.J. Abrams was the one to come up with that helmet, thank god the new director realized how stupid that was. I actually cheered when it happened.

I also loved the Yoda scene. It almost felt like something out of a parody almost. Like those "laughing Yoda" youtube videos you'd see. LOL. Luke making fun of the force to Rey almost was also good.

And as I said before, it made up for the poor showing up villains from Episode 7. Kylo Ren is now an actual good character, not the crappy Darth Vader wannabe he was in the previous movie, AND they killed off two generic villains who were overhyped and pointless to begin with (Snoke and Phasma). As I said I wish they killed off the other British General guy too, but I guess Kylo Ren needs someone to interact with but he's bland as hell.

It's also a million times better if Rey is not related to any Skywalkers or Han's family or Obi-wan or whoever. Why shouldn't she be a nobody? Anakin was almost a nobody, Yoda and Obi-wan and Qui-gonn were "nobodies" when they were first born. The force isn't a "chosen one" type thing, it's just random aliens or people who happen to be force sensitive.

And the complaints about the movie being too long? I don't know, it flew by for me. The casino scenes seem to be considered the slowest but I didn't think they were too bad.

[Andrew NDB]

Why shouldn't she be a nobody?

I don't mind if she is, but if she is, they would still have to explain how she's like 10 times more proficient with the Force than Luke was in TESB right out of the box in TFA.

[CyberCubed]

I don't mind if she is, but if she is, they would still have to explain how she's like 10 times more proficient with the Force than Luke was in TESB right out of the box in TFA.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/2e/2e9fa9ba8c9592338a261a227ad7b9c5400e2f2fe75f6cb80d f2c73cd07805af.jpg

[Krutch]

Speaking of midichlorians, I kinda hope they're mentioned again sometime. Not that I love the idea - quite the opposite. Introduce them as an old way of thinking and move on.

(still on his anti-Jedi kick from Last Jedi)
Luke: "There was even a time when the Jedi couldn't distinguish The Force from midichlorians."

Done and done.

[Andrew NDB]

Speaking of midichlorians, I kinda hope they're mentioned again sometime. Not that I love the idea - quite the opposite. Introduce them as an old way of thinking and move on.

(still on his anti-Jedi kick from Last Jedi)
Luke: "There was even a time when the Jedi couldn't distinguish The Force from midichlorians."

Done and done.

People still don't understand midi-chlorians...

Having a bunch of midi-chlorians doesn't mean you can use the Force, or representative of the Force itself... it just means that IF you're Force sensitive, your "strength" CAN be higher. That's the way it was explained.

It makes sense from a "let's weed out the people who can't ever actually use the Force" standpoint. Why should the Jedi Council train 1,000 people if only 50 in them have any chance of using the Force? It certainly shouldn't be that just ANYONE can use the Force. If Wedge Antilles or Han Solo can just train really hard for weeks and suddenly can move stuff around with their minds, that's lame.

I never understood the flak the midi-chlorians got. Mostly it seems to stem from people misunderstanding what they were, I think.

[TigerClaw]

I'm fine with Rey being a nobody, cause when you look at it, Anakin was a nobody, and then he became a somebody, the same can be said about Rey, she is a nobody, that's going to become a somebody in the future.

[CyberCubed]

So after seeing the movie, what was the big "plot twist" people were complaining about online saying, "this is not like Star Wars?"

As I was watching through the movie I was wondering what it was people were complaining about. I thought we'd see something like Rey turn to the dark side and join Kylo Ren, or Luke have some truly controversial in his backstory in the past, or some new canon changing moment...but...none of that happened?

Nothing in the movie made me feel like, "this isn't Star Wars" and no character did something too controversial. I assumed it was Luke almost killing Kylo Ren in his sleep, but even then he restrained himself and couldn't do it so it was in character and I loved that scene. Or Leia surviving in space?

Either I'm reading too many posts from hardcore Star Wars nerds, but I don't get what scene it was that had people up in arms? Did anyone honestly like Snoke? I don't get it.

[plastroncafe]

I don't mind if she is, but if she is, they would still have to explain how she's like 10 times more proficient with the Force than Luke was in TESB right out of the box in TFA.

How about: The Force moves in mysterious ways.

[Andrew NDB]

So after seeing the movie, what was the big "plot twist" people were complaining about online saying, "this is not like Star Wars?"

That's part of the narrative now. Mostly I'm seeing people complaining about how a big chunk of the movie amounts to nothing and a lot of big logic points.

Either I'm reading too many posts from hardcore Star Wars nerds, but I don't get what scene it was that had people up in arms? Did anyone honestly like Snoke? I don't get it.

Did anyone like the Emperor after seeing his hologram in TESB? Not really. I mean, we knew we'd probably meet him soon afterward. A hologram is literally how Snoke shows up in TFA... and now that we get to the "Meet Snoke" movie 2 years later, it's fine that they kill him but surely providing us with even his basic most motivations and intentions should have taken place at some point before doing so, yeah?

[CyberCubed]

I'm sure we'll get endless novels and comics filling in Snoke's backstory for people who are interested in that sort of thing, but I don't think it really mattered that much. We know he's the one who turned Kylo Ren and took over the Empire (assumingly not long after the events of Episode 6...I dunno?), but he felt like nothing more than a generic evil character. He felt like a plot device and nothing more. Killing him off quickly gave Kylo Ren much needed time to grow and he's clearly the star of the new trilogy aside from Rey.

To be honest outside of now Kylo Ren, that's how I felt about all the new villains. Captain Phasma is just a design with no real character, Snoke was just the generic big bad, and Hux might very well be the most boring and generic Star Wars villain of all time. I was really hoping Hux would die when Kylo Ren force choked him, I can't believe he's making it through the entire new trilogy. I mean goodness, what even is Hux? Every time he's on screen he just feels like any other generic captain/general in any type of media.

Scaling down the villains to basically just Kylo Ren was a great idea and made him an actual interesting character. Previous Star Wars movies suffered from too many villains (the prequels with Count Dooku, Grievous, Darth Maul, etc.), or even the original trilogy with Jabba the Hutt and Boba Fett even though I like them. The movies always tend to rush through villains or make the mistake of including too many villains.

[Sumac]

I'm sure we'll get endless novels and comics filling in Snoke's backstory for people who are interested in that sort of thing, but I don't think it really mattered that much.
I've already explained why it was wrong - in OT having Emperor with no backstory was fine, since it was just "thing in itself". Now, it won't cut out - SW much bigger and much more story behind it and its characters, and having big player like Snoke coming out of nowhere and BE no-one of importance, is just lazy.

[TigerClaw]

I think Star Wars has to grow beyond the Skywalker family, its why Rian Johnson is working on this new trilogy afterward, to tell stories of other people who made a difference in this universe.

[Andrew NDB]

I think Star Wars has to grow beyond the Skywalker family, its why Rian Johnson is working on this new trilogy afterward, to tell stories of other people who made a difference in this universe.

But we're already 2/3s of the way through said trilogy and we still don't know what's going on. Who's the bad guy? What exactly do they want to do? What are the Knights of Ren? What was Snoke's plan? Old faces show up and die, new faces show up and don't do too much meaningful.

[plastroncafe]

I can't help but feel like we watched very different movies.

[sdp]

Those audiences ratings like on Rotten Tomatoes shouldnt be counted, since the Cinemascore rating is the real audience rating, which has given the Last Jedi, an A Cinemascore.
https://www.cinemascore.com/
http://i64.tinypic.com/34zambc.jpg

The only people upset, are a vocal minority.


What? Did you check that website? All movies have positive ratings even ones that everyone agrees are not good. :lol: If we count this website the audiences love The Phantom Menace.

How is it a vocal minority? Look at this thread, more people disliked it than didn't. When TFA there were plenty of people who didn't like it like me but we were drowned out by all the people that loved it.

I can't remember where I read it now, maybe I misinterpreted it but I'm sure I read there was some re-writing..[/QUOTE]
Maybe you're confusing it with the re-writes that both Rogue One and Han Solo had?

I read about how they rewrote all of the Sequel Trilogy because someone at Disney said the Lucas ones "were too much like the prequels".

But maybe you're right since TLJ was originally supposed to come out in May.

Even if you are happy with the plot twists and changes, the film can underperform in other areas too. For me it was humor and the gender politics.

I didn't notice the gender politics while watching the film but after having them pointed out they're clearly there. I don't think that's what makes the movie bad but it wouldn't surprise me if many people are defending the film just because of this furthers their agenda.

After the dust settles, could this possibly be...a franchise killer? Or at least the one that takes a lot of steam out of the sail?

Maybe, and I don't think TLJ is such a terrible movie, I think audiences are just getting tired of annual Star Wars. This is the third movie we get from Disney every year, now with Han Solo there's going to be another one.

I think fans loved rehashing the Rebels vs Empire story but after TFA and RO then TLJ was just too much, especially since they're only a year apart. This was going to happen eventually. I wrote about it last year, (https://miscrave.com/articles/annual-star-wars-spin-offs/) I just didn't 'think the backlash would happen so soon.

I also noticed that after the Disney/Fox announcement, it was actually met with negativity. These announcements were usually met with "Disney does an excellent job, good!" but with this one people started to think "Disney is going to own everything" and started criticizing even the Marvel movies. I think it's also a backlash at seeing that all the entertainment comes from Disney and noticing the similarities between all their products.

Not remotely. If anything, the polarizing audience reaction might make Disney tighten the corporate reins even moreso, creatively.

What's depressing is this is the correct answer. And I don't like TLJ for keeping the status quo even with the message of "let old things die", but I liked the new interesting takes it took the franchise like the Kylo/Rey relationship (before messing it up and going back to the status quo)

Speaking of midichlorians, I kinda hope they're mentioned again sometime. Not that I love the idea - quite the opposite. Introduce them as an old way of thinking and move on.

(still on his anti-Jedi kick from Last Jedi)
Luke: "There was even a time when the Jedi couldn't distinguish The Force from midichlorians."

Done and done.

Midicholorians are something that never bothered me when I saw Episode I, and I never understood the hate until one article that wasn't a fanboy ranting and explained how it took the "magic" away from Star Wars and I finally understood.

Counting Lucas didn't mention midichlorians again in either Ep.II or III I'm guessing they'll never be mentioned again. I could go either way, I don't miss the midichlorian talk but I wouldn't mind if they mentioned them.

I think Star Wars has to grow beyond the Skywalker family, its why Rian Johnson is working on this new trilogy afterward, to tell stories of other people who made a difference in this universe.

I don't think anyone argues that, the Star Wars universe and world building it did over the past decades was awesome, sure there was plenty of crap but also plenty of awesome stuff, there was and is a ton of potential.

This is why people get mad that we have Empire vs Rebels again when there's so much to draw from. We dont want spin-offs like Rogue One when we can have spin-offs not related to the OT.

I also don't understand all the hate Rian Johnson is getting over TLJ, all of the films faults were seeds planted in TFA, JJ is to blame.

[CyberCubed]

I do think The New Order, especially it being so powerful, is a misstep. Especially since this is 30 years after the original trilogy, you certainly wouldn't expect them to still be this powerful and be such a dominant force in the galaxy. It sorts of undermines the big victory of defeating Darth Vader and Palpatine if you realize nothing much really changes. But again it's mostly on J.J. Abrams or whatever other business execs decided this to begin with.

[Andrew NDB]

I do think The New Order, especially it being so powerful, is a misstep. Especially since this is 30 years after the original trilogy, you certainly wouldn't expect them to still be this powerful and be such a dominant force in the galaxy. It sorts of undermines the big victory of defeating Darth Vader and Palpatine if you realize nothing much really changes. But again it's mostly on J.J. Abrams or whatever other business execs decided this to begin with.

I really wish if they wanted to do that so bad, they at least would have flipped it around. Like, the New Republic has fallen into its own kind of corruption (maybe the surviving members of the Rebel Alliance were so traumatized by the Empire's activities up to and including two Death Stars, its answer to stopping that in the future as the New Republic is to build its own brand of superweapons, and becomes overzealous in dealing with the problems of various worlds), so it's up to the latest generation of Skywalkers and/or Solos to build a new Rebel Alliance against it, perhaps even consisting of not-so-bad Imperial remnants.

[plastroncafe]

I do think The New Order, especially it being so powerful, is a misstep. Especially since this is 30 years after the original trilogy, you certainly wouldn't expect them to still be this powerful and be such a dominant force in the galaxy. It sorts of undermines the big victory of defeating Darth Vader and Palpatine if you realize nothing much really changes. But again it's mostly on J.J. Abrams or whatever other business execs decided this to begin with.

It's almost like it's echoing events in the real world...

[CyberCubed]

It's almost like it's echoing events in the real world...

But that's like saying after Hitler and the Nazi's fell in World War II, there was still a just as dominant force there threatening to take over the world like back in the 40's.

Since then it's just been the cold war with Mother Russia, and the endless wars in the Middle East that have been going on for hundreds of years. There is no huge Nazi empire threatening to take over the world at this point.

The New Order is like the fall of the Empire was just a small afterthought.

[plastroncafe]

The New Order is like the fall of the Empire was just a small afterthought.

I don't see it that way.
The Empire Fell, but it didn't die.
And the First Order is the remnants of that Empire returning...and successfully rising again, with a new generation leading the charge.

This is what I like about this new series of movies.

[Coola Yagami]

I think Star Wars has to grow beyond the Skywalker family, its why Rian Johnson is working on this new trilogy afterward, to tell stories of other people who made a difference in this universe.

The Skywalkers are the main heroes and villains of the franchise though. Might as well call it something else.

[victory_angel]

My Mom view Luke as having a grizzled old war hero mentality. The “I’ve done my part, now I just want to be left alone.” She said this was a kind of mentality you would have to be in your fifties and sixties to really actually grasp. And she has certainly seen that same mentality from some of the residence at the retirement communities she has staffed at.


The one question I brought up to my mother after the movie is where is this franchise going to go now. It’s obvious that the story is going in a direction that feels new and people are either liking this direction or are immediately saying that it makes the franchise unrecognizable. But there is a set up for something big on the horizon which will come to a head in episode 9.

There is some talk about a possible forth trillogy which would bring us up to episode 12. But I get this feeling that perhaps Disney is also preparing us for an end to this story as well. Which is understandable, after all there is only so long the story can be continued. The old characters we have come to love are gone, and while we see some hints of a new birth to the Jedi order are gone it isn’t the same with out the trio that started it all. But while the main story would come to an end, that doesn’t mean Star Wars as a franchise would die. Instead it would spawn a collection of side stories and character stories that would used for the purpose of world building.

Take a look at Harry Potter for example, the main story as we know it is over following the seventh book. While it might be great to see a film version of the Cursed Child, do we really need to? Personally I don’t think it really matters what the Trio did after they left Hogwarts, because their story is done. However the wizarding world still can be fleshed out which is why we have Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them to help continue to flesh out the Wizarding World. Eventually there will be films about the Marauders and their life through Hogwarts. Or the History of Hogwarts itself.

So with Star Wars we have World Building films such as Rogue one being a small but no less important moment in the continuity of the saga as it was the rebel faction that stole the plans for the Death Star. But you would have to read the prequel novel Catalyst to learn about Jyn’s family and why they went into hiding.

Just like one has to read the Aftermath Trillogy to see what happened after the Empire was destroyed. After all it wasn’t just “We won, now there is peace” but more a “The empire has been struck a fatal blow, now those who are still loyal to it and hold power with in it are in a power grab to keep it stable and eventually leading to the creation of the First Order”

There is a Han Solo movie going be released this up coming year, and an Obi Wan Kenobi spin off film that is currently rumored to begin filming in. So the Star Wars universe will still have more to offer us. And of course the classic story would eventually be refilmed and rebooted for newer formats and technology.


However world building stories still aren’t enough to really keep a story relivent. For example Disney some years ago had the rights to the Chronicles of Narnia, of which three of the seven books have been adapted to theatrical film. But these three films also conclude any involvement the four Pevencie children really have in the story itself.That is until everyone except Susan is killed in a tragic train accident in the final book. but the rest of the novels are largely just about Narnia itself which is fine, but might not really draw people into it film wise. Particularly after how much time has passed since the last film. There is talk about the Silver Chair being adapted to film by Sony Pictures, but I don’t think it’s that likely to really take off.

The most recent cash cow that Disney has aquired is Wrinkle in Time which is a book I have enjoyed as a child and still love as an adult. And I can see them adapting the sequel “The Wind in the Door” to film as well depending on Wrinkles success. The other two sequels on the other hands might not really get adapted at all, not to mention the sequel universe that follow the children of two of the main characters from Wrinkle in Time.

So with Star Wars, maybe an expanded universe to keep the franchise alive might work, but it will still lose fans who don’t see them as their Star Wars or fail to really draw in people who are newer to the Star Wars franchise.

[Andrew NDB]

The Skywalkers are the main heroes and villains of the franchise though. Might as well call it something else.

I kind of tend to agree. If things do end up ultimately getting entirely divorced from the Solo and Skywalker bloodlines... after a few more of these movies, what's really going to separate the numbered installments from the "___________: A Star Wars Story" anthology movies, or any of the other spinoffs that will emerge?

[TigerClaw]

The Skywalkers are the main heroes and villains of the franchise though. Might as well call it something else.
The video games Knights Of The Old Republic took place way way long before a Skywalker was involved, and those were highly regarded as good Star Wars games for its stories.

They can do new Star Wars movies set after this trilogy with new characters, that have no association with a Skywalker.

[sdp]

The problem is Episode VII doesn't take place a few years after Return of the Jedi, it takes place 30 years later.

Episode VI gives us the defeat of the Empire, The Emperor and Vader are gone and so are their super weapons and the majority of the planets are on the Rebels side. We see Corusant and other planets celebrating the fall of the Empire. Do I think Wars end that easily? In fiction yes, we already saw it happen in the Star Wars prequels and how this huge civil war ended immediately. But even then, Yes it would've been awesome to explore the remnants of the empire during THIS time a few years tops after ROTJ like the EU books did. I'm on board 100%.

Having these ideas 30 years later? That's not interesting, I want something NEW 30 years later. It makes the OT seem worthless, they achieved absolutely nothing, in fact they somehow don't have the upper hand anymore, it's trash.

You want a story that mirrors the real world? Look at Palpatines rise to power in the prequels, everyone hates the "politics" of the prequels, but I saw a very interesting story in how a man can fool the majority into thinking he is what they need to "save" them.




The Sequel Trilogy needed to be a sequel with new threats or ideas like an Outer Rim alien invation, that's only one example because I'm not super creative and I like the Vong since it felt something "new" that Star Wars hadn't done. I'm sure professional writers can come up with cooler stuff.

I LOVE being pandered to with nostalgia if done right, I would've loved more movies of Empire vs Rebels and seeing stories like that explored through Spin-Off movies. There are so many stories to tell during that period that doesn't need the main heroes. But when the sequel trilogy is doing Empire vs Rebels again for no reason and the spin-off films are doing Empire vs Rebels then I just lose interest. Hell I lose interest that out of all the stories they could've told they decided to give a backstory to "how the plans of the deathstar were stolen" and "How Han got the Millenium Falcon", these stories didn't need to be told and if they did they should've been comics or video games or books which is what the old EU did.

[Coola Yagami]

The video games Knights Of The Old Republic took place way way long before a Skywalker was involved, and those were highly regarded as good Star Wars games for its stories.

They can do new Star Wars movies set after this trilogy with new characters, that have no association with a Skywalker.

The shows, games, cartoons, etc don't count when it comes to the movies, nor should the movies have any obligation to reference all that extra material. Star Wars in essence, is the Skywalker story. Sure, it's a huge world and there are other characters that could work for spin offs, maybe, but the whole deal revolves around the Skywalkers.

[Coola Yagami]

The problem is Episode VII doesn't take place a few years after Return of the Jedi, it takes place 30 years later.

Episode VI gives us the defeat of the Empire, The Emperor and Vader are gone and so are their super weapons and the majority of the planets are on the Rebels side. We see Corusant and other planets celebrating the fall of the Empire. Do I think Wars end that easily? In fiction yes, we already saw it happen in the Star Wars prequels and how this huge civil war ended immediately. But even then, Yes it would've been awesome to explore the remnants of the empire during THIS time a few years tops after ROTJ like the EU books did. I'm on board 100%.

Having these ideas 30 years later? That's not interesting, I want something NEW 30 years later. It makes the OT seem worthless, they achieved absolutely nothing, in fact they somehow don't have the upper hand anymore, it's trash.

You want a story that mirrors the real world? Look at Palpatines rise to power in the prequels, everyone hates the "politics" of the prequels, but I saw a very interesting story in how a man can fool the majority into thinking he is what they need to "save" them.




The Sequel Trilogy needed to be a sequel with new threats or ideas like an Outer Rim alien invation, that's only one example because I'm not super creative and I like the Vong since it felt something "new" that Star Wars hadn't done. I'm sure professional writers can come up with cooler stuff.

I LOVE being pandered to with nostalgia if done right, I would've loved more movies of Empire vs Rebels and seeing stories like that explored through Spin-Off movies. There are so many stories to tell during that period that doesn't need the main heroes. But when the sequel trilogy is doing Empire vs Rebels again for no reason and the spin-off films are doing Empire vs Rebels then I just lose interest. Hell I lose interest that out of all the stories they could've told they decided to give a backstory to "how the plans of the deathstar were stolen" and "How Han got the Millenium Falcon", these stories didn't need to be told and if they did they should've been comics or video games or books which is what the old EU did.

True, but if you're going to go that far away from the original story and characters, just don't make sequels. Let the series end with the Prequels and OT and make some other new space movie franchise.

[victory_angel]

I don't see it that way.
The Empire Fell, but it didn't die.
And the First Order is the remnants of that Empire returning...and successfully rising again, with a new generation leading the charge.

This is what I like about this new series of movies.

The Aftermath Novels are actually canon to the story, and they really don’t follow a “The Empire is gone now peace can reign”

But rather the Empire has been struck a very heavy blow, and that leads to a whole conflict to maintain what order they previously had while the Fledgling new republic becomes the new face of power.



“And the New Republic or the New-New Republic or the Republic We Got This Week will clamp down hard and then those people with the so-called better way will become the brave rebel alliance and the Republic will become the enemy and the wheel will turn once more.”
Starwars Aftermath.

[CyberCubed]

Few other things:

1. I'm glad Luke didn't die like Obi-wan did in Episode 4. When Luke shut down his lightsaber I was really fearing he would just let Kylo Ren kill him and disappear like Obi-wan did. Thank god that didn't happen.

2. Was the codebreaker guy meant to be like Lando? I was getting Empire Strike Backs flashbacks when Finn and Asian girl had to befriend some shady character who seemed to betray them to the Empire. I guess they had to have one blatant ESB callback there, although I'm glad he didn't turn good like Lando did.

3. Rey's "lifting rocks" comment the end was probably the funniest moment of the whole movie.

4. I'm surprised Maz, the old orange lady, was only in one small scene of the whole movie.

5. I actually liked how little Rey was in the climax. Her last big moment was basically fighting against the red imperial guards with Kylo Ren, but after that she was just in the Falcon with Chewy and the whole climax of the movie was with Luke and Poe/Finn.

6. Was Leia being absent for most of the middle of the movie because of her death in real life, or was it always planned like that? It felt to me like the purple haired lady was a stand-in for her for a lot of the movie for that reason.

7. Little slave kids gave me Anakin vibes. wtf.

[Andrew NDB]

3. Rey's "lifting rocks" comment the end was probably the funniest moment of the whole movie.

I actually did get a good laugh out of that bit. It was set up perfectly and subtly enough earlier on and that was a great payoff.

6. Was Leia being absent for most of the middle of the movie because of her death in real life, or was it always planned like that? It felt to me like the purple haired lady was a stand-in for her for a lot of the movie for that reason.

You give yourself away with this one, Cubed.

[sdp]

Leia was boring in both sequels, especially in this one, I'm glad she won't be a main character in 9. Leia was one of the coolest characters in the OT, too bad her General role just didn't suit the character. At least her death means ghost look is a shoe-in for Episode IX.

Few other things:

1. I'm glad Luke didn't die like Obi-wan did in Episode 4. When Luke shut down his lightsaber I was really fearing he would just let Kylo Ren kill him and disappear like Obi-wan did. Thank god that didn't happen.



I had already read that he died accidentally a few hours before seeing the movie in a comment so I knew going in and I thought his "sacrifice" would be getting shot and killed and have the Empire lose all their time and ammo on shooting just one person. I though it was a cheap way to go but I was willing to accept it. The fact that the red dye went flying after the laser blasts I wasn't sure if it had been his blood or the dye. When I see him unscathed I geeked out.

I didn't mind that he was an illusion, it worked for me and so did his death on the island. For a moment i thought I had read a FAKE spoiler.

2. Was the codebreaker guy meant to be like Lando? I was getting Empire Strike Backs flashbacks when Finn and Asian girl had to befriend some shady character who seemed to betray them to the Empire. I guess they had to have one blatant ESB callback there, although I'm glad he didn't turn good like Lando did.
I don't know what they wanted to do with him, he seemed like an interesting character but he's gone as fast as he appeared and makes you wonder why even bother at all.

4. I'm surprised Maz, the old orange lady, was only in one small scene of the whole movie

I hated that orange lady, she was annoying in TFA but she was clearly meant to be a bigger character based on her introduction in TFA so to see her only get a quick cameo for the sake of continuity was another disappointment.

She got the same treatment that Jar Jar got in the prequels "Oh, looks like they didn't like Jar Jar, well since we invested so much time on this character it'd be awkward not to have him at all in them so let's just give him a brief cameo in the sequels then"

[Andrew NDB]

But Carrie died a few months after it was finished. Apparently she asked if she was going to have a bigger part in the next movie (and she was), I can see why... I liked her in the parts she had.... all but that one in space :)

http://img.ifcdn.com/images/97fb1648916f797bb4e7919bd646f2a7a9e204f32a9f185082 29c0a8cf14e592_1.gif

[CyberCubed]

As for Maz, I'm not sure what to think about her. Didn't she say Chewy was her boyfriend in TFA or was that supposed to be a joke? :lol:

I do want to know why she had Luke's lightsaber, I feel like that's the only question from TFA that should have gotten some answer, unlike Rey's parents being important or Snoke saying how he rose to power in the year 836 A.D. and was Darth Sidious' younger brother cousin.

[sdp]

With the mixed reactions and the fact that JJ is coming back I wouldn't be surprised if Disney just tells Abrahams to reset everything from TLJ. JJ likely wants his vision of the trilogy that he had when he made TFA and now that TLJ got this response he will have full control to "make thigns right. Remember that Trevorrow was basically fired for not wanting to do the thigns Disney wanted for Ep.IX.

Captain Phasma will be back.
Snoke could come back.
Rey could get parents.
Maz would come back and be important.
Force ghost Luke tells Rey he acted like that because it was part of her training.

The Mouse is going to "keep it safe" for Ep. IX


Also, if at the end of the film the good guys are the underdogs while the First Order are basically the new Empire. Doesn't that mean that even when the new Rebels defeat the First Order again we're back to ROTJ? Where they gave a "lethal blow" to the First Order but they still have plenty of influence and "IT"S NOT LOGICAL FOR THE FIRST ORDER JUST TO BE GONE LIKE THAT IT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE FOR THEM TO STILL BE AROUND". I mean TLJ let's us know that the resistance/rebels no longer have influence in the galaxy again, it's the first order that rules.

[TigerClaw]

Star Wars: The Last Jedi is proof that a franchise needs to mature with its fans
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/20/16800416/star-wars-the-last-jedi-skywalkers

[CyberCubed]

The only thing I could see J.J. Abrams going back on is Rey's parents, but I hope they don't. Luke said "Who are you?" to Rey meaning he never saw her before, and her being related to Obi-wan or anyone else just wouldn't make sense either. Seeing her just be a "normal person" from random nobodies fits better, and makes her less of a generic "chosen one" like other series does.

I don't think they'll bother bringing Snoke back. He was cut in half, his eyes were lifeless, and unlike Darth Maul falling down a chute, he literally lay their dead for that long scene of them fighting the red imperial guards and then Kylo Ren and Rey trying to convince each other to join each others sides. The audiences expectations for Snoke are also now over due to this film, unlike the speculation from Episode 7 so nobody is going to think to see him again.

I do think Episode 9 will have a typical happy ending. Kylo Ren will be defeated or killed, the First Order will be gone, and the heroes rejoice.

[plastroncafe]

Would it really even be considered "going back" if we got to meet Rey's parents?
Take who that information came from. Kylo Ren is a liar, why are we suddenly supposed to just believe him?

[Andrew NDB]

Luke said "Who are you?" to Rey meaning he never saw her before

If her mother left Luke when she was (barely) pregnant, that wouldn't be untrue.

and her being related to Obi-wan or anyone else just wouldn't make sense either.

If Plagueis created Anakin inside Shmi to fulfill some Sith prophecy that Palpatine inherited, it would make a lot of sense to me if Plagueis (if he's Snoke, or someone else) tried it again with Rey.

The Obi-Wan thing is weird. The closest she could be to him is his granddaughter, and that's not very exciting.

Benicio Del Toro's DJ character could end up being the dad, coming back with a change of heart in IX.

I don't think they'll bother bringing Snoke back. He was cut in half, his eyes were lifeless, and unlike Darth Maul falling down a chute, he literally lay their dead for that long scene of them fighting the red imperial guards and then Kylo Ren and Rey trying to convince each other to join each others sides.

I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but I'm not entirely convinced either. We don't even know what Snoke's pre-existing injuries were. It kind of looks like someone split his head in half with a lightsaber and then the head healed itself back together wrong... so maybe he has another trick up his sleeve, or some secret tech or powers. Wasn't one of the last things he barked at Rey that "I cannot die!" or something somesuch? Maybe he was being a blowhard in saying that... maybe not.

[sdp]

I never liked the Obi Wan grand daughter or whatever theory, the problem with Rey is they tried to make it a big mystery but the only cool outcome was for her to be a Skywalker somehow which even the second trailer alludes to. Of course that was also the most predictable outcome, when we saw Finn and Rey we knew Rey was the "skywalker". I do think the "Episodes" have to deal with the Skywalker line somehow. Having Rey have no parents while not the worst thing they could do is still underwhelming, especially since they built the trilogy on the mystery of who she was as I mentioned before.

We still have it with Kylo but that's another problem, having him repeat Anakin/Vader is tough. I really wish they'd had the big kahuna's and had both Rey and Ben form an alliance to get rid of the first order, resistance, jedi and sith like he mentioned. That would've been an awesome cliffhanger. If we think about it they're now the bad guys but at the same time they aren't, it depends on the point of view and would give us a totally different Episode IX, instead of the predictable by the numbers sequel we're going to get which just replicates ROTJ.

Think about it, if Kylo turns to the light side then it was just a remake of the Vader storyline, if he doesn't then Han Solo died like a chump and still doesn't make the movie better that "he never turned back". It's a lose/lose situation, neither outcome is exciting.

[NinjaPug]

The only thing I could see J.J. Abrams going back on is Rey's parents, but I hope they don't. Luke said "Who are you?" to Rey meaning he never saw her before, and her being related to Obi-wan or anyone else just wouldn't make sense either. Seeing her just be a "normal person" from random nobodies fits better, and makes her less of a generic "chosen one" like other series does.

I don't think they'll bother bringing Snoke back. He was cut in half, his eyes were lifeless, and unlike Darth Maul falling down a chute, he literally lay their dead for that long scene of them fighting the red imperial guards and then Kylo Ren and Rey trying to convince each other to join each others sides. The audiences expectations for Snoke are also now over due to this film, unlike the speculation from Episode 7 so nobody is going to think to see him again.

I do think Episode 9 will have a typical happy ending. Kylo Ren will be defeated or killed, the First Order will be gone, and the heroes rejoice.


Somehow I missed this originally but according to this JJ and Rian are on the same page about Rey's parentage.

http://collider.com/star-wars-reys-parents-answer/

[Vegita-San]

Well, a bit of damage control to me. they HAVE to be now. they change it again and they'll upset even more devoted fans.

Rian screwed the pooch writing this thing too damn early.

'I'm getting a bit of ghostbusters dejvu for....' Oh for Craps sake give it a rest already 'progressive' internet article writers. if the movie stinks, it stinks. stop trying to blame it on something else.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/16/star-wars-box-office-the-last-jedi-scores-massive-105m-friday/#496212d7cd3f

[NinjaPug]

Well, a bit of damage control to me. they HAVE to be now. they change it again and they'll upset even more devoted fans.

Rian screwed the pooch writing this thing too damn early.

'I'm getting a bit of ghostbusters dejvu for....' Oh for Craps sake give it a rest already 'progressive' internet article writers. if the movie stinks, it stinks. stop trying to blame it on something else.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/16/star-wars-box-office-the-last-jedi-scores-massive-105m-friday/#496212d7cd3f

I don't think it's damage control when the article about Rey's parents came out weeks before anyone saw the movie.

[Vegita-San]

whoops.
I just read the article title. I assumed it was something recent.

But after having read it, it PROVES disney has no real plan here.

Abhrams told him, but rian wasn't supposed to follow it and could come up with something on his own? how does that sound like a game plan?

[CyberCubed]

What does that have to do with anything? If J.J. Abrams had no plans for Rey's parents to be anyone important, and Rian Johnson didn't either, then...they're both on the same page?

[Shark_Blade]

The craziest character in Star Wars history is the guy who tastes a new planet and goes “salt.” ****ing lunatic.

KYLO: The Resistance is over, and the Jedi will die forev—
SOLDIER: (tastes planet)
KYLO: Why’d you do that?
SOLDIER: I dunno.
KYLO: ...For God's sake

LUKE: Every part of that was wr—
KYLO: That guy just ate dirt.
LUKE: What?
SOLDIER: It’s fine. It’s salt.
KYLO: YOU DIDN’T KNOW THAT!

SOLDIER: Just go... go back to what you guys were doing.
LUKE: Dude. Don’t taste a new planet. I mean, who— (chuckles)
KYLO: Right?!

LUKE: What’s your deal? You w/ them?
KYLO: He is NOT my guy. Ew.
LUKE: You do this a lot?
SOLDIER: No!
LUKE: (closes eyes) You’ve tasted 14 planets

[CyberCubed]

I'm surprised by the lack of new planets in the movie, most of the movie felt like it was set in space.

All we got was Luke's island (which barely counts), the casino world planet, and then Krait (I think that's the name?) where it was basically just another ice planet with a bunker.

[Sumac]

The one question I brought up to my mother after the movie is where is this franchise going to go now. It’s obvious that the story is going in a direction that feels new and people are either liking this direction or are immediately saying that it makes the franchise unrecognizable. But there is a set up for something big on the horizon which will come to a head in episode 9.
How Rebels against (pseudo)-Empire is something new?

It's almost like it's echoing events in the real world...
It's almost like every piece of media should promote your agenda.
Which laughable and stinks of an attempt to turn everything into propaganda piece, which is has nothing to do with freedom, but quite opposite.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm surprised by the lack of new planets in the movie, most of the movie felt like it was set in space.

All we got was Luke's island (which barely counts), the casino world planet, and then Krait (I think that's the name?) where it was basically just another ice planet with a bunker.

If one were to break it down in terms of actual new planets (and c'mon... FAKE Tattooine really shouldn't count, and that Resistance staging planet in TFA might as well have been a different part of Naboo), battles in space, new ships, new starfighters and actual lightsaber fights... between TFA and TLJ aren't really carrying their weight in this trilogy when weighed against the rest.

[CyberCubed]

To be fair there's only so many type of planet designs you can do:

1. Sand = Tatooine and Jakku

2. Ice/snow = Hoth and Crait

3. Forest = Endor, planet in Episode 7 where Maz was

4. Fire/volcano = Episode III planet where Obi-wan/Anakin fought, or Sullust

5. Swamp = Degobah

6. Cloud = Cloud City/Bespin

7. Underwater = Naboo, Underwater city

8. Casino = Episode 8

9. Beach/tropical = Scariff in Rogue One


Then you just have the usual futuristic looking cities/planets with huge buildings and flying cars, which is basically every other planet.

[Andrew NDB]

2. Ice/snow = Hoth and Crait

But Crait was neither ice nor snow.

I'm surprised by the lack of new planets in the movie, most of the movie felt like it was set in space.

True... but almost none of TFA was set in space. There's a little bit of a balance there, whether intentional or not.

[TigerClaw]

But Crait was neither ice nor snow.
Yeah, Crait is a mineral planet, its covered in salt.

It's based on a real place that has a salt flat
https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/blogs/last-jedi-battle-filmed-earths-largest-salt-flat-salar-de-uyuni

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, Crait is a mineral planet, its covered in salt.

Granted, it's a little troubling that they just had to have the second installment in a new trilogy where the last one was beyond heavily criticized for slavishly following the first installment of the last one... with Walkers on a white planet with essentially skiffs flying about them, when that same thing was like the most iconic scene of that movie. Admittedly, nothing really comes of the New Walkers... but they're there. And why are they even there?

[Shark_Blade]

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Director Defends Rey's Parents Reveal. Rian Johnson says the reveal is not a misdirect. That's who her parents are.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-defends-reys-pare/1100-6455770/

It's been a week since the debut of Star Wars: The Last Jedi. In that time, fans, whether they loved or hated the movie, have been unable to stop discussing some of the movie's major plot revelations, including finding out who Rey's (Daisy Ridley) parents are.

In a scene with Kylo Ren (Adam Driver), Rey admits that her parents were "nobody." They were junk traders who sold her off for alcohol money, Kylo adds. Given that many fans spent the last two years theorizing that she was related to a character integral to the Star Wars universe, perhaps even Luke Skywalker himself, this was a bit of a rude awakening. Some even posited the idea that this particular reveal was a misdirection in terms of her actual parents.

However, The Last Jedi director Rian Johnson says that is not the case. Speaking to Collider, Johnson says, "That's what Kylo sees and that's what he tells her and I think he's not lying in that moment. That's what he saw and she seems to believe it when she hears it."

Still, the director admits that things could change in Episode IX, which he isn't writing or directing. However, in his mind, Rey's parents truly were nobody, even if fans are having a hard time accepting it. "I can understand why that answer doesn't feel good. It's not supposed to feel good," he says. "It's supposed to be the hardest thing she could possibly hear in that moment."

As Johnson explains it, giving Rey parents central to Star Wars would have been a bit of wish fulfillment that's just too easy of a solution. "I can understand why Rey would desperately want that and why us, we as an audience, do too," he says. "But we're not here to give Rey an easy time, we're here to put her on the hard path so that she has to...because that's the path of a hero."

Of course, it also helps Kylo in his quest to manipulate Rey into joining his cause. "Kylo is going to use the fact that you don't have that to stand on to try and get you to lean on him in this moment," Johnson says. "And you’re going to have to find the strength within yourself to define yourself in this world."

So while some fans may still be unhappy about the identities of Rey's parents, Johnson clearly didn't make the decision lightly. And in the end, it may opening up far more possibilities for Rey in Episode IX than having her be yet another Skywalker blood relative could offer.

[Andrew NDB]

Totally meaningless.

[Shark_Blade]

Yep. If the next director wanted to change it, it can happen. Just like how TLJ did with what TFA built up.

[victory_angel]

How Rebels against (pseudo)-Empire is something new?


What I meant was something new with the Jedi. The scene where Luke was going to burn down the Jedi temple and the Journals of the Whills but hesitates because he knows that as much as he feels the Jedi no longer have a place in the universe there is still the legacy and history they once held.

Instead Yoda destroys the temple and when Luke is aghast at what his late Master has done to the sacred texts, Yoda just responds “they are no longer needed.”

Instead through Rey (and through Luke) a new history and legacy of the Jedi can be written.

What do we see at the end with those stable kids, one of them was telling his companions about how Luke faced off against Kylo Ren and then when the slave owner bursts in to beat them one of the boys uses the force to pick up his broom and he looks hopefully up at the sky as that shooting star that was meant to symbolize the millenium falcon blasting into hyperspace.

[CyberCubed]

The fact that the director has to defend that proves how whiny fans are. Some people are so desperate for Rey to be a Skywalker or related to anyone else important that when they find out she's just an unwanted child from random junk traders they whine.

It's almost like some people want the dumb "chosen one" crap they complain about, and they can't handle the fact that it's not the same as their fanfiction they conjured up in their minds over the last 2 years.

I really hope J.J. Abrams doesn't do the opposite, and for the most part he probably won't. The next movie will be the last we see of Rey for a long time, I don't think we need to know she's related to character #42345 when there's a trillion people in the galaxy and every character is from the same family tree.

[Shark_Blade]

https://i.imgur.com/JCzbcAP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CXliZow.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GOLpuyr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zokhEB6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bngN0b8.jpg

[Andrew NDB]

Speaking of the Millennium Falcon... is that really shaping up to be this forever thing? Blow that f***er up already, I say. I'd way rather have seen Chewie make an end run with it at the Snoke ship or the Walkers than us not getting Luke for one more movie.

[Sumac]

The fact that the director has to defend that proves how whiny fans are. Some people are so desperate for Rey to be a Skywalker or related to anyone else important that when they find out she's just an unwanted child from random junk traders they whine.

It's almost like some people want the dumb "chosen one" crap they complain about, and they can't handle the fact that it's not the same as their fanfiction they conjured up in their minds over the last 2 years.
But she is already "chosen one" by the story, which makes her look like a "mary sue".
At least if she was related to someone of notice, her abilities and how she is good with Force could have been explained in-universe.

[Krutch]

I think my favorite part about Episode 8 has been how candid Mark Hamill has been about everything. He genuinely seems like the guy who knows he has nothing to lose so he just keeps taking tiny pot shots at Disney.

Mark's awesome is basically what I'm saying :lol:

[ZariusTwo]

I think my favorite part about Episode 8 has been how candid Mark Hamill has been about everything. He genuinely seems like the guy who knows he has nothing to lose so he just keeps taking tiny pot shots at Disney.

Mark's awesome is basically what I'm saying :lol:

Mark giving zero f*cks and being /ourguy/ is the best publicity this film can possibly have.

[plastroncafe]

In Bob We Trust - STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI SPOILER TALK (https://youtu.be/_7UKW-dgZMU)

I love this Masshole.

[Vegita-San]

Mark giving zero f*cks and being /ourguy/ is the best publicity this film can possibly have.

there seem to be two camps of movies now.
either you love it and it's above criticism,

or you hate it and nothing is good.

there seems to be very little middle of the road in todays world.

[plastroncafe]

That's an easy conclusion to come to when you only listen to your own Echo chamber or go trolling in someone else's.

I've been having a lot of nuanced conversation about this movie, where it fails and where it doesn't, all over the internet.

[Spike Spiegel]

They could "fix it" in IX. Despite the shortcomings of the movie (and there are many), I think Johnson did have a goal in mind with the story.

I think a lot of fans will have to go through the "stages of grief" with Luke's character development, and just the OT characters in general, if they decide to keep following it.

I think it's a good (or at least competent) movie, but not the best Star Wars movie. The Manichean light/dark struggle, the hammy, operatic dialogue--those things are a part of the narrative identity of the saga. When you take that away, it becomes less of a timeless myth and more of a run of the mill sci-fi/fantasy story. As bad as some parts of the prequels were, these archetypal aspects were always there.

Are there shades of grey in real life? Sure. But the fantasy environment of SW is a different place. There is a kind of nihilism present in TLJ that isn't really in the other movies, and I am not sure if it belongs.

[NinjaPug]

For those that thought the online audience scores were accurate and thought anyone mentioning bots were involved were delusional:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-alt-right-female-characters-1201910095/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

You can also see where the bots were malfunctioning on RT giving negative audience reviews for TLJ under other movies like Shape of Water.

Disney/Lucasfilm isn't going to alter their plans based on nonsense like that especially since it has been successful at the box office.

[Vegita-San]

yawn. you don't need bots to show that LOTS of people didn't like this movie.

at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if this was just one big conspiracy theory dreamed up by disney.
It just reads as everything built up by the feigbuster narrative that hollywood has been pushing for the last year.
don't like it, you're a woman hater.


They just can't seem to accept that alot of people think their movies just arn't great?

'taking responsibility' 'alt right' geeze, is this a bad movie, or a terrorist attack article? smh

[Spike Spiegel]

The gender politics in TLJ weren't nearly as antagonistic and one-sided in this movie as the stuff in Feigbusters. The Rose-Finn thing specifically.

Overall, it was something that approximated actual human interaction in the modern post-feminist [current year]. :tcool:

[Vegita-San]

or at least it tried too.. if the actors cared enough about what they where reading to actually act it out.

[plastroncafe]

.
Are there shades of grey in real life? Sure. But the fantasy environment of SW is a different place. There is a kind of nihilism present in TLJ that isn't really in the other movies, and I am not sure if it belongs.

I disagree, I see nothing but nihilism in the dark side.
Having faith in one's friends being a weakness? That sounds pretty nihilistic to me.

But you bring up an interesting point about realism and the fantasy environment. There's a lot of the arguments in this thread regarding Rey are that it's unrealistic that she can do a thing.

Why is that where the realism line ends? Why do we have to be realistic about Rey's abilities but not realistic about other aspects of the universe?

The prequels were all about trade agreements, but people don't like that Maz was in the middle of a union dispute.

[NinjaPug]

yawn. you don't need bots to show that LOTS of people didn't like this movie.

at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if this was just one big conspiracy theory dreamed up by disney.
It just reads as everything built up by the feigbuster narrative that hollywood has been pushing for the last year.
don't like it, you're a woman hater.


They just can't seem to accept that alot of people think their movies just arn't great?

'taking responsibility' 'alt right' geeze, is this a bad movie, or a terrorist attack article? smh

Ironic considering all the conspiracy theories you come up with

[TigerClaw]

_7UKW-dgZMU

He likes it ;)

[Vegita-San]

All I had to do was see the replies on that video to know I wasn't going to agree with it.


some folks on other corners of the internet that also posted that think whoever this guy is got paid by disney.

[Spike Spiegel]

But you bring up an interesting point about realism and the fantasy environment. There's a lot of the arguments in this thread regarding Rey are that it's unrealistic that she can do a thing.

Why is that where the realism line ends? Why do we have to be realistic about Rey's abilities but not realistic about other aspects of the universe?

The prequels were all about trade agreements, but people don't like that Maz was in the middle of a union dispute.

This is the second time you have brought this up, so I figure someone has to oblige you.

The only issue I have with Rey is her minimal amount of training compared to Anakin/Luke in relation to what she's done. Luke got his ass kicked for two movies (other than the Death Star) before he could do what Rey did at the end of TFA, along with his loss of a hand. Anakin, the Chosen One who is apparently conceived through the Force without a human father, loses his arm in his first duel with a Sith lord after 10 years of training in Ep. II, and doesn't do anything with the Force in TPM unless you count his piloting skills.

And there's the fighting with the staff, her mechanical aptitudes, and piloting skills. Is there anything she isn't inherently good at? In terms of training with Luke, he just tells her to "reach out" once. The closest she comes to getting a limb chopped off is the busted lightsaber.

And

she's apparently an autodidact, what with taking the Jedi books.

It's not that all the main protagonists haven't been Mary Sues/Gary Stus. Rey is just far more of one by comparison. Maybe it's a storytelling issue. One or two actual training montages, especially in TFA, or a scene that actually shows her struggling with...anything, and I could let it slide. Is anyone honestly expecting her to have a real issue fighting Kylo in IX?

[plastroncafe]

Vegita, the next time you wonder why there's no middle ground, save yourself the keystrokes and just look in the mirror.

This is the second time you have brought this up, so I figure someone has to oblige you.

Coming down from on high to talk a little old me? I'm flattered!

My question was why is that where that where the buck stops, not why is there a buck at all.

It's a subjective question, not an objective one.
I'm just curious why this is the sticking point.

I'm Legit curious as to why something like this so easily gets stuck in the crawl up so many. I don't understand it.

It seems so baked into the world already that I'm surprised people have as big a problem with it as they do.

[Vegita-San]

- anytime I check out one of plastron's replies, never ceases to amaze me. anyone offers any criticism against what they believe in, boom. it's a echo chamber. look in your own echo chamber :).

as far as spike goes..
yep.

And considering the type of people in charge of the franchise now, it's meant to be deliberate, no doubt. Rey is basically infallible. and doesn't need to learn anything to be good at it. she's instantly good at it. If Ridley didn't make Rey at least seem likeable, she would be a totally annoying character. the kid character in the movie that can do no wrong that the audience always hates.

Something else that bugs me. what's the big deal about this Del Toro guy? who is he? where is he from? why do so many people think he being in star wars is a big deal? I didn't find anything good or likeable about his code breakercharacter.

[Spike Spiegel]

Did everyone forget how to use the quote function?

http://68.media.tumblr.com/47d8a576d3268a63b4095eae1f25825b/tumblr_ollzcrVybg1shol9yo2_540.gif

[plastroncafe]

Did everyone forget how to use the quote function?

http://68.media.tumblr.com/47d8a576d3268a63b4095eae1f25825b/tumblr_ollzcrVybg1shol9yo2_540.gif

I don't quote Vegita because I kind of don't believe anything they have to say is worth saying the first time so repeating it seems futile.

And I'm on my phone, which doesn't lend itself to Great Coding.
Which is also why my link to moviebob was a link and not a YouTube embed.

[TigerClaw]

Movie Bob makes some excellent points, so screw all them haters. :D

[plastroncafe]

Movie Bob makes some excellent points, so screw all them haters. :D

I think my favorite thing about him is when he gets extra angry his Masshole accent comes out stronger. I respect that in a guy.

But yeah, even when I don't agree with his assessment of a movie I usually find myself learning something about media criticism or film theory.

I was really curious to see what he would think of the disjointed nature of The Last Jedi. Because the movie was hardly perfect, but I don't have a background in film criticism or film Theory so I was looking forward to seeing what he had to say about it.

I will say this though, that guy ruined Wonder Woman for me. He had a theory before the movie came out that displeased me, so I spent the entire day of the movie distractedly waiting for that theory to pan out.

It did not.

[Spike Spiegel]

My question was why is that where that where the buck stops, not why is there a buck at all.

It's a subjective question, not an objective one.
I'm just curious why this is the sticking point.

I'm Legit curious as to why something like this so easily gets stuck in the crawl up so many. I don't understand it.

It seems so baked into the world already that I'm surprised people have as big a problem with it as they do.

It's just a narrative thing, for me. I personally feel like we have been cheated out of an arc for Rey for the sake of moving the plot forward at a fast enough pace. She's the heroine of the story, but a rather flat character in practice. She can just do things because apparently that's all we need to know about Jedi or their training in the ST. Like she says in the film, "they lift rocks."

And if you want to compare Rey to another female character, Ahsoka from Clone Wars/Rebels goes from a perky, naive Padawan to a Grey Jedi who can stand toe-to-toe with Vader himself. She starts out reckless like Luke did and screws up a lot, later fighting valiantly in the Clone Wars and having to deal with the loss of her squad while in command. She is framed after the Jedi Temple is bombed and expelled from the Order. She is later pardoned, but refuses to return. And, judging by her presence in Rebels, she's tough enough to survive Order 66.

She's terribly young (16 when she leaves the Jedi Order) when all this happens, and by some standards, she is very much a Mary Sue. She's a character inserted into an established era of the history of the Star Wars galaxy who wasn't present in the original source material (in this case, the prequels). Clone Wars and Rebels can be considered fan fiction to the same degree as any part of the old EU. Yet, people have responded well to her.

[plastroncafe]

Oh. Okay.
Fair enough.

I think I agree with moviebob that the term Mary Sue has been overused to the point of not adhering to his roots. Originally a term created in fanfiction for a perfect character with no flaws, it's come to mean any female character that someone takes issue with for whatever reason.

I know I've misattributed attributed it myself in reference to Batman. A character that is so heavily steeped in flaws he damn near comes out the other side flawless.

Ray has flaws, and they're the same flaws that Luke has.
Just as Ahsoka has flaws, as you mentioned.

I'm coming at Rey from completely different standpoint. Here's a girl who from a very young age had to take care of herself, where is Luke had Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru to take care of him. Luke not knowing how to fight with anything that wasn't a pistol he do use on the farm make sense for his character. Whereas Ray, being a young girl on her own, would have probably picked up a thing or twelve.

Also Ray has the advantage of not being afraid of the dark side like Luke always was.
Like the Jedi always were. I think that's a fatal flaw and their ideology, which has always been flawed.
Isn't Obi-Wan who says that only the dark side deals in absolutes?

Anyway, thank you for expounding.

[victory_angel]

AvMZNv_pPsA

[Andrew NDB]

I was kind of offput by the whole "Last Jedi" thing. So much of the movie seems to be about deconstructing the Jedi, that the Jedi Order was bullsh** (Luke is right, btw), let's go and burn down the temple and all the books... yet at the end Luke is all, "I won't be the last Jedi!" and Rey stole the Jedi books (in what I bet is a reshoot), presumably about to teach people in the ways of the Jedi Order. It seemed to be starting an all new Order would make sense, not Jedi Order 2.0.

[Vegita-San]

movie doesn't even follow it's own logic.

Luke spends whole movie moaning 'jedi must end'..

then does a complete 180 and seems happy that 'he won't be the last jedi'

but, what do I know. apparently the movie was great and fun and threw everything out the window. even it's own logic. some conspiracy theory.

The Titles 'deeper meaning' was just to shock fans into worry for 2 years. that's it.

[plastroncafe]

I was kind of offput by the whole "Last Jedi" thing. So much of the movie seems to be about deconstructing the Jedi, that the Jedi Order was bullsh** (Luke is right, btw), let's go and burn down the temple and all the books... yet at the end Luke is all, "I won't be the last Jedi!" and Rey stole the Jedi books (in what I bet is a reshoot), presumably about to teach people in the ways of the Jedi Order. It seemed to be starting an all new Order would make sense, not Jedi Order 2.0.

The Jedi are dead, long live the Jedi?

I dunno, this seems like the Jedi Reformation to me.

[Spike Spiegel]

Our Only Look at George Lucas’ Vision for the ‘Star Wars’ Sequel Trilogy (http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-sequel-trilogy/)

Among the pieces presented at the meeting were portraits of an older Luke Skywalker training a new disciple named Kira (who was later renamed Rey). The idea was that, 30 years after the fall of the Empire, Luke had gone to a dark place and secluded himself in a Jedi temple on a new planet. The paintings show Luke meditating, reassessing his whole life.

Apparently, the initial plan for Star Wars: Episode 7 was that Luke, over the course of that movie, would rediscover his vitality and train this new Jedi. So basically, what we got from the Rey/Luke storyline in The Last Jedi was initially supposed to be the bones for George Lucas’ Episode 7. Imagine an alternate universe where Episode 7 was Luke reluctantly training a new Jedi – it would be completely different.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfYaMazUIAAkFwg.jpg

[plastroncafe]

It's clearly just me, but I found the storyline we got to be far more compelling.

[Andrew NDB]

It's clearly just me, but I found the storyline we got to be far more compelling.

That's just one storyline in a bigger movie we have no idea about. Hardly a fair way to measure the merit of one potential film over what we got.

[sdp]

I'll say it again, Episode IX can't fix the problems, at least not for me, it's Ep. VII that screwed things up. Rian Johnson is getting the heat that JJ/Disney cooked up and he'll be the easy scapegoat.

I would've loved to have seen Lucas' Ep. VII, the fact that it took until Ep.VIII to get to a plot point that was going to be in VII originally shows us how much Disney is screwing up. We always knew Luke would be an Obi Wan like character in the future, Lucas had mentioned things like that back in the OT days.

Yeah, Crait is a mineral planet, its covered in salt.

It's based on a real place that has a salt flat
https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/blogs/last-jedi-battle-filmed-earths-largest-salt-flat-salar-de-uyuni

I did not know this, this is actually really cool, I just thought it was NOT-hoth the planet, wish there had been a better way to portray it, the "it's salt" comment went over my head.

For those that thought the online audience scores were accurate and thought anyone mentioning bots were involved were delusional:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-alt-right-female-characters-1201910095/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

You can also see where the bots were malfunctioning on RT giving negative audience reviews for TLJ under other movies like Shape of Water.

Disney/Lucasfilm isn't going to alter their plans based on nonsense like that especially since it has been successful at the box office.

That's awkward because Rotten Tomatoes just announced that
Rotten Tomatoes Says Its 55% 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Audience Score Is Authentic
Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/20/rotten-tomatoes-confirms-its-55-last-jedi-audience-score-is-100-authentic/#2d11c5d84231

Again, just look at this topic to see, the vocal minority is clearly the people who liked the movie.
Vegita, the next time you wonder why there's no middle ground, save yourself the keystrokes and just look in the mirror.

No self-awareness from your part? You're literally the other side of the coin.

You even told me in another topic "You cannot be in the middle ground" when I pointed out your side was too extreme for me.

Movie Bob makes some excellent points, so screw all them haters. :D

Can we screw all the haters of the prequels? Why is it ok for Moviebob to hate the prequels?

I should note I didn't watch the video, I got bored of his opinions a long while ago.


It's clearly just me, but I found the storyline we got to be far more compelling.

It might only be a few like you that liked it and that's perfectly fine, I love Episode I and disagree with most of the haters which by now is the majority of the internet.

It's when people don't take he reality and spin it to fit their narrative like we're seeing right now everyone scrambling to "protect" the movie. Why didn't we see this type of propaganda for the DCEU? Because it didn't fit their narrative?

Many of the things people complaining about people complaining are not even the things people are complaining. Most people liked Luke and yet I see article after article "People can't accept the new Luke?" and I"m like "What? it's very few who didn't like Luke, that's not the problem of the story". They're using the same tactics the use for their political articles.

[plastroncafe]

That's just one storyline in a bigger movie we have no idea about. Hardly a fair way to measure the merit of one potential film over what we got.

I think you're under estimating how much I enjoy the existential crisis trope.

Plus I've seen what happens when Lucas is allowed to plot an entire Trilogy on his own. It didn't work for me. I'll take my chances.

[Vegita-San]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/20/rotten-tomatoes-confirms-its-55-last-jedi-audience-score-is-100-authentic/#2d11c5d84231[/url]

Again, just look at this topic to see, the vocal minority is clearly the people who liked the movie.


I'd LOVE for Midnights edge to find out that this was all setup by Disney if Rotten Tomatoes is denying it to be real. after all, they did try to discredit a marvel critic by having the writers organize a campaign against him.

All those bullet points mentioned in that 'alt right' article just SCREAM 'Hate' from the 'positive' side. All the things they slung at us from the feigbuster mess wrapped up in one nice little facebook group that no ones ever heard of before seems too convenient.

[QUOTE=sdp;1735968
No self-awareness from your part? You're literally the other side of the coin.

You even told me in another topic "You cannot be in the middle ground" when I pointed out your side was too extreme for me. .[/QUOTE]

I missed that one. priceless.

I have been reading reviews on other boards. it's very clearly a 'love it or hate it' thing.

[Andrew NDB]

I did not know this, this is actually really cool, I just thought it was NOT-hoth the planet, wish there had been a better way to portray it, the "it's salt" comment went over my head.

What do you mean? There was literally a 20 second scene with one of the "Rebels" walking out and making red as they walked, with the people talking about the salt.

[plastroncafe]

What do you mean? There was literally a 20 second scene with one of the "Rebels" walking out and making red as they walked, with the people talking about the salt.

Not only that, but why would they go back to Hoth, when the hidden base they had on that planet was compromised in Empire?

The red underlayer of the salt was an amazing effect.
Something I didn't notice, probably because I was too busy musing about how it was nice of Luke to cut his hair, was that he didn't leave footprints when he fought Kylo.

[newfan]

and dyed the hair and beard for the projection too...I didn't notice the missing foot prints either

[CyberCubed]

I have no idea why people think Lucas' Episode 7 ideas would be any better. I have no desire to see Luke train a new Jedi Order, that likely already happened in the 30+ year gap and will be covered in comics/novels over the next decade anyway.

[Andrew NDB]

There was really no attempt to even disguise that Luke is a FAKE Luke beyond the initial walk-up from the shadows. From the haircut to the major coloring of his hair and beard, to him whipping out the wrong FAKE lightsaber and not leaving footprints, when the footprints thing was a story point not even 5 minutes beforehand.

[plastroncafe]

and dyed the hair and beard for the projection too...I didn't notice the missing foot prints either

I thought it was a really nice touch, that they had Luke appear to Kylo and Leia as he looked the last time he saw them both.

[sdp]

What do you mean? There was literally a 20 second scene with one of the "Rebels" walking out and making red as they walked, with the people talking about the salt.

I clearly skipped that day of chemistry class and I"m ignorant on the subject, I don't understand how the red tells us it's a mineral planet. I just thought it was an icy planet and i"m guessing most did too.

I didn't understand the "it's salt" comment, like my mind didn't connect the whole planet was like that, I only thought the ice was salty or I don't know what, I guess I didn't think too much about it and continued watching the movie.

[Andrew NDB]

I clearly skipped that day of chemistry class and I"m ignorant on the subject, I don't understand how the red tells us it's a mineral planet. I just thought it was an icy planet and i"m guessing most did too.

I don't remember them talking about it being a mineral planet (though I probably missed that), I just remember them being crystal clear about "Oh, there's a layer of salt on everything, the ground is red underneath!"

In fact, I remember being alarmed when I first saw the red footprints by the guy that walks out when they first get to Crait. Like, "Oh god, this 'Rebel' is bleeding out, he's just gonna walk out there and drop dead!" But they explained it.

I only thought the ice was salty

"Salty ice" is an oxymoron.

[CyberCubed]

I think what also threw some people off about it being an ice planet were those ice fox creatures. Looked like something out of Final Fantasy or Pokemon.

[TigerClaw]

I think what also threw some people off about it being an ice planet were those ice fox creatures. Looked like something out of Final Fantasy or Pokemon.
They are actually crystal foxes, not icey ones.

[sdp]

Well, I feel like a dumbass but I still hold in my defense that it was not clear enough :tlol:

[Andrew NDB]

They are actually crystal foxes, not icey ones.

The mating must be really interesting.

[newfan]

I thought it was a really nice touch, that they had Luke appear to Kylo and Leia as he looked the last time he saw them both.


Yes I'm glad they did that, a little more recogniosable as Luke. There was a shot in that scene where he looked (although aged and bearded) like a shot of him from Jedi.

[Spike Spiegel]

The mating must be really interesting.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/sudden_realization_christopher_lloyd.gif

[CyberCubed]

I wonder if Billie Lourde's character (Carrie's real life daughter) will get a bigger role next movie. I'm kind of surprised she didn't get the role the Asian girl did and get to go to the casino planet. She had a lot more scenes in this movie than she did in the first.

With Carrie's death it would be nice to see her play a more active role to live up to her mothers legacy.

[plastroncafe]

The mating must be really interesting.

Not unlike a porcupine, I wager.

[victory_angel]

Kylo thinks that by striking down Luke he is destroying the Jedi forever. But the Force, the Whills, whatever you like is not something that can be controlled. It’s not something that can be stopped.

Kylo sees the force as untapped power and that is true. It is untapped power and Snoke had taught him to see it that way. But he largely uses it in anger, he’s angry that he can’t live up to Vader’s Legacy, he’s angry at his parents for not being the best parents they could be, he’s angry at the universe around him. So every action he does is that of a petulant child. Force driven temper tantrums.

Rey on the other hand, is a force sensitive. Force sensitives don’t need to come from Jedi legasy.

In the past, force sensitive children were found soon after they were born and brought to the temple to get trained in the ways of the force. Rey is a force user who comes from nothing and lives nowhere. Because of this she clings to those she has come to think of as family such as her friends. Leia and Han being more parental figures to her then her own. And embraces the force not as something that needs to be harnessessed but rather as friend that can guide her.

She is possesses the spirit of Ashla and Kylo possesses the Spirit of Bogan, that is how they have the same level of raw power. And also how Kylo was able to recognize Rey in force awakens. He doesn’t know who she is as a person, but there are aspects from her that he remembers. They two of them are forever at odds, forever seeking to subdue the other. But yet without either of them the universe can’t exist.

That was the whole aspect in the first lesson where Rey was told to reach out with the force and feel and she encounters the extremes of the world around her, life, death, caring and violence, warmth and cold, light and darkness.

[Sumac]

But you bring up an interesting point about realism and the fantasy environment. There's a lot of the arguments in this thread regarding Rey are that it's unrealistic that she can do a thing.

Why is that where the realism line ends? Why do we have to be realistic about Rey's abilities but not realistic about other aspects of the universe?
There are certain rules of storytelling, which allow to create interesting and compelling characters.
It's not about how realistic the world is, it's about how interesting and fleshed out character is. Those two things are different from each other.

I understand why you protect Rey from criticism, because, she is a woman lead in one of the biggest, if not the biggest franchises in existence. And you either genuinely believe that she has no flaws because of that or you think that "good enough" will work too.
But for me, either choice is just lowering your standards in favor of your agenda, which doesn't really make things better for a good representation of women.

And no, Luke wasn't all-powerful Jedi master out-of-the-box. Neither was Aniken, at least in the movies.

And there is a difference between being a good engineer and scavenger and being a good swordswoman and Force user.
It's like saying being good at blacksmithing automatically makes you good at driving cars.

Coming down from on high to talk a little old me? I'm flattered!
It sounds quite ironic, coming from someone who soars on their high horse so high in the sky. :roll:

I think you're under estimating how much I enjoy the existential crisis trope.
It suits your character.

[plastroncafe]

Kylo thinks that by striking down Luke he is destroying the Jedi forever. But the Force, the Whills, whatever you like is not something that can be controlled. It’s not something that can be stopped.

Kylo sees the force as untapped power and that is true. It is untapped power and Snoke had taught him to see it that way. But he largely uses it in anger, he’s angry that he can’t live up to Vader’s Legacy, he’s angry at his parents for not being the best parents they could be, he’s angry at the universe around him. So every action he does is that of a petulant child. Force driven temper tantrums.

Rey on the other hand, is a force sensitive. Force sensitives don’t need to come from Jedi legasy.

In the past, force sensitive children were found soon after they were born and brought to the temple to get trained in the ways of the force. Rey is a force user who comes from nothing and lives nowhere. Because of this she clings to those she has come to think of as family such as her friends. Leia and Han being more parental figures to her then her own. And embraces the force not as something that needs to be harnessessed but rather as friend that can guide her.

She is possesses the spirit of Ashla and Kylo possesses the Spirit of Bogan, that is how they have the same level of raw power. And also how Kylo was able to recognize Rey in force awakens. He doesn’t know who she is as a person, but there are aspects from her that he remembers. They two of them are forever at odds, forever seeking to subdue the other. But yet without either of them the universe can’t exist.

That was the whole aspect in the first lesson where Rey was told to reach out with the force and feel and she encounters the extremes of the world around her, life, death, caring and violence, warmth and cold, light and darkness.

I think it's the fatal flaw in both the Sith and the Jedi that they think they can control The Force, and that it exists in a stark binary. Light/Dark. Good/Evil.
So far in this series we've seen people run towards the extremes. Sometimes in fear, sometimes with glee.

What makes Rey different is she seems to want to stay in the middle. To embrace both the light and the dark. And I think that's interesting.