Official Episode Discussion S2 #22 "Vengeance is Mine"

[Chinibio]

Umm...did I just watch a season finale? Because it sure felt like it!! Holy**'........I don't even know what!! That episode was so full of emotions, action and great character interactions. That brothers wrestling around the dojo reminded me one of the 2003 series episode. Nice to see Mikey and Leo interacting more in a that kind of way. Poor Splinter, and what a great mirroring about Shredder and Karai's similar backgrounds(about being raised by "enemies") and how it(at leas to me) seemed like, that sad fate was inevitable because of that. And as a Mikey fan I just have to apologies my earlier(see Mikey's own thread) rant about he's writing being wrong. I take it back.. You writers totally get it now and thank you for that And like stated many times before, I get the feeling, that there's more to Raph's eyes, than it seemed. It just feels odd to make him to say Donnie, being OK in a way he did, if there is no bigger meaning/story to be told in that. Or i'm just over analyzing it...

[ssjup81]

I still want to know how Baxter is able to make mutagen. Even the Kraang don't "make" mutagen. It's like they harvest it or whatever the term would be.

That aside, I just rewatched the ep again back to back with The Wrath of Tigerclaw. I just love those two eps so much. I didn't notice Leo blushing so much in this ep. lol I also found it funny how Leo actually lost his cool after being embarrassed in front of Karai by Mikey.

As I mentioned earlier, Leo kind of paralled Donnie in this episode as far as crushes go.

Anyway, even if Karai hadn't have been mutated, I don't think she would've stayed with the Turtles and Splinter for long. I think she would've gone off to be alone to reflect on the situation and coming to terms with how she was raised, and all that.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I still want to know how Baxter is able to make mutagen. Even the Kraang don't "make" mutagen. It's like they harvest it or whatever the term would be.

Baxter is delusional and full of himself. And that is something that costs him a good deal. So by saying he can create mutagen, he is believing the mutagen was chemically based and could be created by mixing chemical compounds.

However we know the Mutagen was milked from the Krathatrogon and as far as we know, the Foot don't know what the Giant Worms were used for.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Baxter is delusional and full of himself. And that is something that costs him a good deal. So by saying he can create mutagen, he is believing the mutagen was chemically based and could be created by mixing chemical compounds.

However we know the Mutagen was milked from the Krathatrogon and as far as we know, the Foot don't know what the Giant Worms were used for.

Didn't they have a captive Kraang for a while? Plus they are working with them, which is how they got Chrome Dome. Odds are they would have asked what those giant things were.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Didn't they have a captive Kraang for a while? Plus they are working with them, which is how they got Chrome Dome. Odds are they would have asked what those giant things were.

The thing with the Kraang and the Foot as that both groups don't trust each other. They only see each other as a means to an end and that end is the destruction of the Turtles and the Hamato Family in general.

If the Shredder is short sighted enough to see his hench man become mutants, and not care about it because his vendetta against Splinter mattered more. He is more then likely going to ignore mutagen producing worms unless it could somehow fit into his plans of destroying the Turtle's and Splinter.

[Eiko]

This episode was pretty good. Mutated Karai wow! she didn't really look that bad.

[Darth Knuckles]

This episode was pretty emotional towards the end. Splinter and Shredder's reactions to Karai being mutated was pretty intense to see. I thought Shredder did care about her but this episode left no doubt about that. It was a terrible mutation for everyone involved so it was pretty intense.

Karai's serpent mutation was pretty surprising. I mean the music slowed down and changed and everything. Kind of chilling. Are we assuming that Stockman-Fly was going to just put in the purple serpent DNA and then the orange, retromutagen?, got mixed in with that? That's what I thought when I first saw it but how in the world did he get retromutagen? And Shredder's plan to mutate Splinter's own sons into a rats' worst enemy is just evil. I do really like this version of The Shredder. Oh yeah, and Tiger Claw = awesome.

[Refractive Reflections]

First the pacing was pretty fast, as with the past few episodes since "The Wrath of Tiger Claw" and could have been a two-part episode, but I'll take this pace rather than the dull storylines we have been receiving for most of the past episodes in this second season.

This episode expanded a lot on the Splinter-Shredder backstory and on Karai, which I applaud the show for doing so. It probably supersedes "The Wrath of Tiger Claw" in terms of character depth, action, and dramatic weight; and probably one of the best for the season. I enjoyed the numerous dramatic-filled moments and rich storywriting:

-How they gave some dramatic weight (using slow motion and seeing Shredder on the roof) to Karai leaving Shredder’s hideout, and leaving with the Turtles when it was symbolic of leaving a world, and a home that she grew up on.
-Having Karai and Splinter affectionately hug each other for the first time, which would give a much more powerful emotional effect when Splinter would save the mutated version of snake Karai from falling.
-Twisting the backstory where instead of just one ninja clan being associated with the premise, there are actually two with Hamato's clan and the Foot Clan. It will be interesting in exploring Shredder's backstory, if the show somehow explains how exactly he got that information that he was part of the Foot Clan. In addition to the impressive parallels that Mutant Ninja Anole stated (I quoted in the next post), it was a great parallel how Shredder raised Splinter's child (Miwa/Karai) just like Splinter's father raised Shredder.
-The crafty plans of Shredder in trying to make Splinter's own Turtles destroy and feed off of Splinter.
-The complications of having both Splinter and Shredder having affection toward Miwa/Karai. It's a celebrated form of adding character depth to Shredder rather than making him into a one-dimensional villain.
-Leo understanding how Karai can't say "thanks" when they rescue her while they ride the Shellraiser, but how she finally manages to say so when Leo tries to rescue her from the cage above the mutagen.

Although these parallels and dramatic points may be subtle, they create a far more powerful emotional impact when the fighting, plot twists, and action reaches their climaxes when you follow the journey of these characters because the viewer is grasping the emotional weight behind them and what they do. In addition, this episode gave the series a little more of the well-needed uniqueness from the other TMNT universes and it wasn't giving the feeling of using other elements from other TMNT depictions.

The only things that seemed odd was how harsh Splinter was with the Turtles in their planning. One would think that Splinter would be more actively involved in planning to rescue his own daughter; it seemed like he treated the Turtles more like his pupils than his own kids in comparison to Karai, but then again, maybe it's the fact that he just reunited with her.

In terms of storywriting, this episode is probably unprecedented. In fact, these last four episodes from "The Wrath of Tiger Claw" to "Vengeance Is Mine" are probably the most unexpected episodes within Season 2. The comedy is leaning off of "dumb and loud Mikey" and ill-mannered, gross habits (using situational humor in "Plan 10"), the plots are focusing on the bonds between the characters (Karai and Shredder in "The Wrath of Tiger Claw" and "Vengeance Is Mine"), and changing the villains' situations (bringing in another criminal gang in "The Legend of Kuro Kabato") rather than using the cliche mutant of the week plot on any random object, food, or animal.

...And it makes sense since these four episodes, all have new writers to the team (except this one, who wrote "Metalhead Rewired"). The tone of these four episodes makes the earlier and middle episodes of Season 2 seem foreign, and appears to hearken back to the richer storywriting of the early episodes within Season 1. Well done Nick staff, these four episodes are actually making me slowly interested in the show again.

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by MrTMNT2012

This episode seriously had the potential to be my favourite....oh well, still can't wait for the next few episodes to see that Leo one-shot!

Originally Posted by MrTMNT2012

Did anyone else think this episode was extremely rushed?

This could've easily been a 2-parter but they just had to wrap everything in this one episode. We didn't even get a proper climax because of what happened to Karai, everything just sort of stopped instead of becoming more tense. Shredder's character development is very inconsistent IMO, he's shown to be ruthless one second but then genuinely care for his 'daughter' the next even though she just tried to kill him.

The way Karai mutated was literally the dumbest way possible and Shredder still blames Splinter for that. Also Snakarai's design is the weakest so far in the series.

Episode could've been way better IMO... (6.5/10)

Really? That's your criteria, just because of Karai's design, the fast pace of the show, and Shredder's illogical reasoning (which is what is expected of some villains), you are plunging the episode down to 6.5? So it's almost as bad as Invasion of the Squirrelanoids with a 6.2? Okay... then again, you are already making the 2014 movie your most favorite TMNT movie before the movie is even out (according to your signature), so that alone says enough right there.

Originally Posted by Mutant Ninja Anole

With regards to Shredder, I wouldn't call his blaming of Splinter bad writing, it's classic villainous cognitive dissonance and it's part of some of the greatest fictional villain ever IMHO. Of note for geeks like us: Dukat from Deep Space Nine and Demona from Gargoyles. Demona's character arc basically revolved around blaming other people for the results of her own increasingly destructive actions. At one point she actually says "What have I...what have THEY done?" Part of what makes a villain a villain is an unwillingness to see what's wrong about their actions.

Shredder blames Splinter because the truth is impossible for him to process.

Originally Posted by Mutant Ninja Anole

Probably already been said, but I can't believe I forgot to comment on the parallels, with Shredder accidentally killing Tang Shen trying to get to Yoshi, then mutating his daughter trying to get to him again. And both times he shifts the blame.

There's also an underlying them in which vengeance poisons everything. Karai stupidly goes after Shredder alone in search of revenge, Shredder attempts to take revenge and ends up mutating Karai, then ironically swears vengeance for her.

If there's a conflict between the turtles and Karai when they meet, then it will be either because she has lost her mind or is lost in a quest for revenge against the Shredder.

A possible thought: Perhaps the two sides become a Jekell and Hyde personality and the more she lets her rage against Saki dominate her, the more she loses the human side. Just a thought.

I enjoy reading your insight into the storywriting a lot Mutant Ninja Anole. And I don't know why people are complaining about Shredder's twisted affection, most villains do have a form of cognitive dissonance. I'll certainly be keeping a looking out for your posts from now on.

Originally Posted by Rukitron

I wish they'd stop mutating people left and right and most of the mutations outside of Turtles, Splinter, and some extent Leatherhead (despite rage issues) left everyone becoming mentally unstable jerks or mindless animals. They ran that down to the ground now...

Normally I would agree with you, but at least this mutation had some dramatic weight by using Karai as snake (a rat's predator) instead of making her some random thing/animal. So even though I don’t generally like the show's mutant of the week formula, this is a welcomed exception for me even though I'm not too thrilled about resorting to it though.

Originally Posted by Vicky82

Poor Leo is getting a lot of hate on Tumblr.

People didn't like that Leo tried to save Karai from the cage and it made Shredder go after him and also they hated he left Raph, to go after mutated Karai, err hello! Donnie was there to help him and they didn't want a dangerous, mindless, shapeshifting snake mutant running lose in New York.

Really "hate" for this character? It's dramatic storywriting, but that's Tumblr for ya. I guess good intentions don't count for anything huh?

Originally Posted by Vicky82

Don't flame me for this but I have to ask.

How many people here didn't want Karai mutated and thought she was going to stay human and live with turtles and Splinter in the lair and be a happy family and team up to fight evil.

My answer

No, I just couldn't see Karai living in the lair with Splinter and the turtles, it just didn't seem right.

I knew something bad would happen to Karai, mutation or maybe even death but death would be stupid move as it would be too early and it will anger fans. Mutation is the best move as it gives more emotion to Spinter, the turtles and Shredder and the war will continue between Shredder and Splinter which will make the story different and interesting.

I agree, it would have appeared to be too easy and anticlimatic for Karai's storyline of return to be resolved so quickly.

Originally Posted by Retro-Specs

One theory we had - and sorry if this has mentioned already - but that mutagen vat must be the same one April was dropped into. Perhaps her DNA contaminated the vat, adding the ability for a mutant to demutate themselves partially at will (I have a hard time seeing Baxter's spilled chemical being the sole cause of Karai's extra ability).

But, since she has the ability to change back, perhaps she will see no need for the retro-mutagen at all. If her human form is "stable" enough, then the snake form could be seen as a super power of sorts. But then we'll likely see a story line about her mutation becoming less and less stable and controllable and such.

That's a great theory Retro-Specs! I hope the writers can use it as another way to help Karai and April bond together. It's a rich source of storywriting potential.

(Had to double post because I was exceeding the character limit.)

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by MrTMNT2012
Did anyone else think this episode was extremely rushed?

This could've easily been a 2-parter but they just had to wrap everything in this one episode.

I sort of agree, the overall story should have been a two parter. Have the first episode be the rescue, then have moments where Karai is getting a tour of the lair. Maybe having April and Casey getting called down to the lair so that Karai and April can meet on better footing. Maybe have Karai get to know the other three Turtles better. Particularly Donnie and Raph since they have the least reason to trust her and just really get used to the idea that she is with a family that cares about her and treats her like a person.

Then have the training session/brawl, and learning the true story of how her mother died. Maybe Karai telling Splinter what she had always been taught about her mothers death and asking about why he never sought vengeance. Then end the first episode where Karai runs off to kill the Shredder for what he did to her mother.

Then second episode could start with Leo waking up and informing his brothers and father about Karai running off and the five of them going after her.

Have Karai tell off Shredder about his selfishness and Shredder of course saying his side of the story about how he's really the victim and Hamato Yoshi is the honorless one.

Then have the fight, maybe have one of the Turtles nearly be put in the mutagen (possible Good Genes reference) Leonardo goes to free Karai and Shredder accidentally cuts the chain suspending the cage containing Karai attempting to send Leo into the Mutagen, Leo has to free the brother suspended over the Mutagen instead while Karai is mutated. And of course everything that occurs after that moment.

However if all they could afford for this story was a twenty minutes, then I will take the twenty minutes. Everything was set up nicely and played out well and we got enough pay off too keep our attention.

I enjoy reading your insight into the storywriting a lot Mutant Ninja Anole. And I don't know why people are complaining about Shredder's twisted affection, most villains do have a form of cognitive dissonance.

The twisted affection is sort of part and parcel as you can't raise the child of an enemy without unintentionally learning to love them in some fashion. Look at Maleficent she curses an innocent baby due to a betrayal by her former lover, but as she watches and waits for the curse to be carried out, she learns to love the child and accept Aurora as she would if she had been her own. In Shredder's eyes he is doing things to make them be the way he feels things should have been. He was part of the Foot Clan, however his clan was killed. He is found as an infant and raised to believe he was part of the Hamato clan. Unfortunately he learns that his adoptive family had slaughtered his real family and on top of that the man he believed to be his brother has taken the woman he (Saki) wanted as his bride. So in his mind he feels that he should have been with his true clan, Teng Shen should have been his true bride, and Miwa/Karai should be his true daughter.

In a way he has grown to both love and hate Karai. He loves her because she reminds him of Teng Shen and what he could have had with her, but at the same time he despises her because he also sees the face of the man who had betrayed him.

I wish they'd stop mutating people left and right and most of the mutations outside of Turtles, Splinter, and some extent Leatherhead (despite rage issues) left everyone becoming mentally unstable jerks or mindless animals. They ran that down to the ground now...

We don't know the full story on the mutagen and what it does. All we know is it's unpredictable, it's milked from giant worms, and the Kraang need April to stabilize it. Perhaps there is a key to how the mutation affects the mind. Maybe it has to do with the will power of the person, if the person is weaker willed they will either lose their mind and all memory of being human, where as people who have stronger mindsets come out as animalistic but still retain their humanity. Perhaps we will learn more about the mutagen and it's properties as things progress.

[Mutant Ninja Anole]

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

I enjoy reading your insight into the storywriting a lot Mutant Ninja Anole. And I don't know why people are complaining about Shredder's twisted affection, most villains do have a form of cognitive dissonance. I'll certainly be keeping a looking out for your posts from now on.

Heh, thanks, I'm flattered.

[blue_angel99]

What an episode!! It was so hard not to read spoilers this time....WOW!

It adds much to the story now that Karai is part snake and can change forms!! Is she evil? Has she retained any of her memories? Me thinks a third party will need to help Karai.

Why is Shredder feeling so bad? If the turtles had become snakes and killed Splinter, wouldn't Karai have hated him even more? He would then have to either kill her or brainwash her into back into submission right? Karai would have been hurt no matter what!!! BAKA SHREDDER!!

Mikey is the turtle of the hour!!! They need to keep him more balanced with the humor/action like in this episode.

Leo was awesome too. His rescue plan worked great. He just needs to sort out his feelings for Karai out and fast. She played him good. For me, I want their relationship to be that of family and not romantic. Same with Donny and April.

Bravo to this episode!!

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

As much as I liked this episode, the mutant motif is probably a way to sell toys. I wouldn't mind a snake Karai figurine so long as we were getting a standard pre-mutated Karai figure too, Playmates put out two of those already and they sold just fine.

[tmntpower1988]

Just as I was starting to like Nick Karai she gets mutated Shredder is a twat in this series, it's his fault Karai is a mutant, he has some nerve saying that he'll avenge Karai.



Was still a really good episode though, was up there with Wrath of Tiger Claw.

[plastroncafe]

One of the three female characters has now been made mindless! WHAT A TWIST?!

Kind of glad this is the last episode for a while.
Maybe by the time the show comes back I'll have forgotten how inconsistent the show has become and can enjoy it again.

[MrTMNT2012]

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

Really? That's your criteria, just because of Karai's design, the fast pace of the show, and Shredder's illogical reasoning (which is what is expected of some villains), you are plunging the episode down to 6.5? So it's almost as bad as Invasion of the Squirrelanoids with a 6.2? Okay... then again, you are already making the 2014 movie your most favorite TMNT movie before the movie is even out (according to your signature), so that alone says enough right there.

WTF does me liking the 2014 TMNT Movie have to do with this episode?

And yes the episode is almost as bad as 'Invasion of the Squirrelanoids' IMO simply for the wasted potential. It could've been my favourite episode in the series but instead they rushed everything with incredibly weak characterisation that I wasn't expecting from this show. The writing also felt disjointed, for example - Leo disobeying Splinter on his own terms. On the one hand, it's good because it shows how much Leo has tapped into his role as an individual leader but the fact that he ignored Splinter's thoughts on the situation was a regression for his character and completely unnecessary.

Maybe it's cause I watched The Legend of Korra Premiere right before this so I wasn't exactly in the best mind-set for a more kid-friendly and basic approach to a serious subject matter. It's not like it's the first time I disagreed with other people on the Nick show, I also didn't like 'Karai's Vendetta' which most people seemed to love!

Just wasn't as invested as I thought I would be so that was dissapointing to me, hence the 6.5 review.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

One of the three female characters has now been made mindless! WHAT A TWIST?!

Kind of glad this is the last episode for a while.
Maybe by the time the show comes back I'll have forgotten how inconsistent the show has become and can enjoy it again.

I love how you say this when every male character other than Casey and Shredder is a mutant too. Stop signaling out females as a pity card.

[Mutant Ninja Anole]

Karai at least had enough of her mind that she recognized Splinter as her father. After she gets her bearings, she may not be insane, but perhaps a bit broken and hungry for revenge. I'm really feeling the next Karai episode is going to involve talking her down from eating Saki.

Though really, if she can take human form easily, I could see her being mostly down with the mutation.

"So I can turn into a snake mutant and kick even more butt? This is great!"

"Your eyes are still snake like in human form you know."

"Meh, get me some contacts, I'm fine."

[MCLeo28]

Originally Posted by MrTMNT2012

And yes the episode is almost as bad as 'Invasion of the Squirrelanoids' IMO simply for the wasted potential. It could've been my favourite episode in the series but instead they rushed everything with incredibly weak characterisation that I wasn't expecting from this show. The writing also felt disjointed, for example - Leo disobeying Splinter on his own terms. On the one hand, it's good because it shows how much Leo has tapped into his role as an individual leader but the fact that he ignored Splinter's thoughts on the situation was a regression for his character and completely unnecessary.

How? Leo has disobeyed Splinter before, esp. when he knows he's right. An example of that would be during "The Gauntlet" where Leo had decided to stop the "mutant" chasing April despite what Splinter told him. Not only that, in "My Name is Baxter Stockman," he disobeyed Splinter when they were literally grounded or how about "The Legend of the Kuro Kabuto" where he didn't trust Raphael's judgement that they shouldn't trade the helmet for Karai? It doesn't seem like regression for his character at all. He believes himself to be the leader and believes himself to be responsible enough to handle ever situation even though he's not. He's still a teenager learning. I'm guessing you hate "Slash and Destroy" and even "The Good, The Bad, and The Casey Jones" just because Raphael has regressed to still having a bad temper even though he's learned that lesson in "Turtle Temper"?

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by MCLeo28

How? Leo has disobeyed Splinter before, esp. when he knows he's right. An example of that would be during "The Gauntlet" where Leo had decided to stop the "mutant" chasing April despite what Splinter told him. Not only that, in "My Name is Baxter Stockman," he disobeyed Splinter when they were literally grounded or how about "The Legend of the Kuro Kabuto" where he didn't trust Raphael's judgement that they shouldn't trade the helmet for Karai? It doesn't seem like regression for his character at all. He believes himself to be the leader and believes himself to be responsible enough to handle ever situation even though he's not. He's still a teenager learning. I'm guessing you hate "Slash and Destroy" and even "The Good, The Bad, and The Casey Jones" just because Raphael has regressed to still having a bad temper even though he's learned that lesson in "Turtle Temper"?

How about the episode when the Purple Dragon stole April's phone. Even though Splinter said it wasn't necessary, he and the others went anyway, which was a good thing. Their lair would've been discovered otherwise.

Maybe the poster had a major problem because Leo was so openly defiant this time around.